Alt History ideas, rec and general dicussion thread

You know in the event that a Third Temple is built at some point - and assuming, you know, that doesn't lead to the end of the world - what happens long term? Does everyone just settle down after a couple centuries? Where does Judaism go once it gets the thing it wanted after all this time? If it gets destroyed, do people start planning for a Fourth Temple?
 
You know in the event that a Third Temple is built at some point - and assuming, you know, that doesn't lead to the end of the world - what happens long term? Does everyone just settle down after a couple centuries? Where does Judaism go once it gets the thing it wanted after all this time? If it gets destroyed, do people start planning for a Fourth Temple?
Probably the same as what happened after the destruction of the Second Temple. Judaism adapts and move on.
 
But then Emperor Julian (the Apostate) had already tried the same thing, and it miserably failed - according to our sources, with "fearful balls of fire" and attacking the workers.

Assuming the balls of fire weren't divine, I'm willing to let the Jews of Persia try again.

You know in the event that a Third Temple is built at some point - and assuming, you know, that doesn't lead to the end of the world - what happens long term? Does everyone just settle down after a couple centuries? Where does Judaism go once it gets the thing it wanted after all this time? If it gets destroyed, do people start planning for a Fourth Temple?

Those are some very good questions, and I don't actually know the answer to some of them. I suspect there might be some real problems with sectionalism were the Temple rebuilt, even then, and If it did get destroyed I'd say you'd be able to count on plans for a 4th Temple.
 
Out of curiosity would this bit also include Emperor's, if only because I'm curious about a gender fluid Amaterasu. I think you could explain WW2 with the fact that maybe Amaterasu has to contain themselves within a person, and they can only do so much. Although that is a scary thought if Amaterasu finds themselves either ignorant of the scale of horrors going on, or aware but powerless to stop those that are killing in their name.
Spending a little time looking into Amaterasu and gender, I'll say that in this setting Amaterasu would still be primarily female, but does still touch on gender-fluidity and is easily capable of incarnating as a man, being a deity and all.

There is the question of, if samurai families had magic and now super-steam technology, would they have remained an institution after the Boshin War (then again, so would the Empress and her supporters)? Or maybe MG-style magic (for now I'll just say love-powered beams) turns the Boshin War into a Cold War where everyone fears mutual destruction (the Quest I ran years ago with this setting was set on the Eve of the Boshin War)?

I should also mention that humans aren't the only species here, youkai such as Kitsune, Oni, Tengu, Moon Rabbits, and Jorogumo are also fairly prominent.
 
Well, in reality Heraklios was probably just too busy dealing with other things, though it's definitely clear that as you say he was probably deeply unsure about what Islam really was. To a degree that's also true for later Christians under Muslim rule who never really seem to figure out how to treat Islam, even when ruled by Muslims but - and this is the important, much cooler part - we do actually have significant records of the Sabians now, so we know a bit more about them. We know that at least one group called Sabians were a kind of star worshippers from the city of Harran, who were either Neoplatonist or a kind of Hermeticist tradition, we have records of one from the court of Baghdad, one Abu Ishaq Ibrahim bin Hilal bin Ibrahim bin Harun al-Sabi. He worked there as a scribe and courtier and constantly refused to convert to Islam, to the point of even being offered the Grand Vizierate if he would convert and turning it down. In reality of course, the fact that he wouldn't convert was part of giving him influence and it's likely that people at the time also knew this, but it became something of a social game since he was fairly assimilated into Muslim norms. This is a poem that he wrote:
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Oh yea, totally agreed. Heraklios probably saw them as just another proxy to fight Rome's wars against the Sassanians; a proxy of the same religion and not occupying that naturally powerful geographic position that the Sassanians held so the two could be on better speaking terms than Rome and Persia

As for the Sabians being better identified, it always warms my heart to see history, whether good or bad, be unearthed and uncovered. History is the story of the human race and every letter, syllable, word, work, picture, song, idea, etc, is an essential part to understanding it all.

The poem is also really lovely, even accounting for the fact it obviously doesn't work as well in English as it does in whatever language he wrote it in (I assume Arabic but Farsi could be). I like the theme of how every group sees something different regarding the divine in the same thing
 
There is the question of, if samurai families had magic and now super-steam technology, would they have remained an institution after the Boshin War (then again, so would the Empress and her supporters)? Or maybe MG-style magic (for now I'll just say love-powered beams) turns the Boshin War into a Cold War where everyone fears mutual destruction (the Quest I ran years ago with this setting was set on the Eve of the Boshin War)?

The samurai families remained very much at the top after the Boshin War. The Meiji government got all of its legitimacy on the back of the Satsuma and Choshu domains, and while the samurai were abolished as a social class, their authority was reformed from feudal lords to noble peers and bureaucrats, comparable to the British aristocracy.
 
Ah, okay. I just checked, and both the Shimazu and Mori clans, rulers of those domains, are still around.
Kinda puts Saigo Takamori in a new light, though I believe his rebellion was due to more than just the samurai being abolished on paper.
 
Assuming the balls of fire weren't divine, I'm willing to let the Jews of Persia try again.



Those are some very good questions, and I don't actually know the answer to some of them. I suspect there might be some real problems with sectionalism were the Temple rebuilt, even then, and If it did get destroyed I'd say you'd be able to count on plans for a 4th Temple.

Here's a spicy idea: the Third Temple is eventually destroyed, not by Gentiles but by Jews, probably during a civil war sparked by sectarianism/a revolt against the political or religious establishment and their control of the Temple, with official motivations being something like "we fucked it up somehow!" or "we built it too early!" or even "things were better in the rabbinic period!"
 
Ah, okay. I just checked, and both the Shimazu and Mori clans, rulers of those domains, are still around.
Kinda puts Saigo Takamori in a new light, though I believe his rebellion was due to more than just the samurai being abolished on paper.
Well, the whole "Meiji Restoration" is a bit odd anyway, because like... popular conception is to see the "Restorers" as the reformers and the Shogunate as the conservatives. You dig a bit deeper, and you see that both sides favoured reforms, actually. And then you dig yet a bit deeper and see it even started out the exact opposite way. The "Restorers'" initial slogan was "Revere the Emperor, expel the barbarians". They were the anti-modernist, pro-isolationist faction, actually. It is telling that the remnants of the Shogunate tried to form the Ezo Republic along pretty modern lines, even though that was always destined to failure. But then the Satsuma-Choshu alliance won the war and faced the fact that Japan needed reform. But of course, that would leave a lot of former followers rather unhappy. It was a very weird situation: The reactionaries won the war, and then became famous for starting a rapid crash course reformation, basically the very thing they initially rallied against.

And while it is true that the entire new government was made up of people from samurai families, but it was still a very small and tight-knit clique. The vast majority of the former samurai class had no part in this, and the only thing changing for them was in fact the loss of their status. I.e., it is true that Japan didn't become egalitarian, and yet at the same time most samurai still lost out. So you actually had a lot of disgruntled (former) samurai. Added to that was a growing rivalry between the former allies of Choshu and Satsuma. That aforementioned tight-knit clique was basically an old boys club from Choshu. A regional rule over Japan, of sorts. So Satsuma sorta felt left out of the spoils of victory.

So basically, there were a lot of disgruntled samurai around, especially in Takamori's home province, and then he tried to build up a personal powerbase there after splitting with the Tokyo government over the political course (in regards to Korea). While using those feelings of disgruntlement, it certainly was less a defence of traditional samurai values, and indeed a bid for a power base, maybe a prelude to revolt. More an offence than a defence.
 
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Since the Bolsheviks were actually hoping for something like this, how would the Soviet Union have likely developed in a TL where Germany had a successful communist revolution in the immediate aftermath of World War I?
 
Now it is possible that I read something about Christians being 40% of the Mesopotamian population and have misremembered that as being the figure for the whole empire.

And yes you are likely right that it was the late Sassanian efforts to homogenize Zoroastrianism that was most responsible for the particular form of modern Zoroastrianism. But we can't be sure about that. There are a number of features of the Islamic conquests which help to obscure some of the details of the Sassanian period, most importantly the informational bottleneck. Zoroastrianism went from the likely dominant faith of greater Persia to the faith of a small group of people living in and around Bombay and some scattered villages in Iran itself. Most of the actual literature we have is from that small community in India.
40% of Mesopotamian population is a lot more reasonable, though I personally still think it's probably a bit too large, but I was unable to find an estimate of how many Christians lived in the empire. On the Zoroastrian part, however, I should note again that the majority of Zoroastrian sources were compiled and codified in the Islamic period, we know that the Sasanians made a huge deal out of their efforts to compile the Avesta and similar things as well as to make an end to the much cooler oral practice of "mumbling" the Avesta (oral recitation basically), which we can think of in the context of Sasanian hostility towards Mazdak's reform movement and the Manichaeans whom the later Sasanians specifically viewed as zandik (heretics) and subjected to heavy persecution. I think the picture formed by this makes it all very clear that the Sasanians - whom I should note made the orthodox upper mobadate the core of their power - were the major force for the creation of orthodoxy and the eradication of the previous cashtag system.

We can see many traces just in the existence of various important Zoroastrian texts. The Denkard refers to Khosrau I as im Bay (his present Majesty) in Middle Persian, making it clear that it was copied from a Sasanian-period text written in Khosrau I's reign. The fact that the majority of Zoroastrian texts from the Islamic period are completely silent on matters such as pilgrimage (evarz) suggests that rather than being written in this period, they were compiled from high-status Sasanian religious manuscripts, which - in traditional royal style - kept their distance from aspects of popular religion, again emphasizing a Sasanian origin. Shaked and Boyce argued (Shaked, 1984; Boyce, 1968a) that the majority of Islamic-period Zoroastrian sources go back to Sasanian-period ones, which were later translated into Arabic and that the Tansarnameh represents an authentic Sasanian core. As can be seen as early as Shapur I's reign, Kartir punished zandik in newly conquered regions and in the Iranian lands for the sin of not "heeding the proper explanation", very clearly showing that even in the early or middle Sasanian period, an understanding of wizar (sometimes translated as canon, but "explanation" of the Avesta is better) as promulgated by royal authority and priesthood was present.

As to the matter of the Parsi, I would like to note that I am a Zoroastrian myself and I am indeed familiar with the importance of the Parsi, however it is simply not true to say that the majority of the actual literature we have is from Parsi sources. While it is true that there are indeed many sources we have from the Parsi, there are still Zoroastrians in Iran, from which we have the Greater Bundahishn, the original Khorde Avesta and many more. The Parsis have preserved many texts for us, yatha ahu vairyo, but they are not the only source and indeed there is a long pattern of Parsis going to Iran whenever a question of orthodoxy appears at home, because Iran was always imagined as the "homeland of orthodoxy". That is the origin of the Rivayats, which originated as questions sent from Parsi mobads to Iranian mobads to ask questions about their procedures, beliefs and practices which would then be sent back with answers. Both communities remained in contact with each other.

I recall listening to some history podcast, basically the sum of it was that in Mesopotamia the Sassanids actively cultivated having Christians opposed to Roman doctrine (Nestorians etc), Jews (to the point of having an official Exilarch) and so on and so forth. This is additionally suported by the fact that until about the 9th-10th centuries, upper Mesopotamia was majority Christian. Iraq was essentially Sassanian Egypt in terms of importance, as it grew most of the food, so the Sassanids liked playing the "we're more tolerant than those romans so don't support them if they come around" card.
Yeah kinda, upper Mesopotamia was definitely majority Christian, but the policy towards Christianity varied a lot. The early Sasanians were a lot more tolerant about Christians than later ones, and openly supported the efforts of the "Persian" eastern Church, but later Sasanians seem to have grown a bit coler on it and produced a number of pretty brutal pogroms. The most bizarre seems to be the Khosrau I-II period, who built their power on the support of the orthodox upper mobadate but seem to have been fairly tolerant towards Christianity, instead choosing to focus on the internal diversity within Zoroastrianism to stamp out. Khosrau II was also notably accepting towards Jews - though as a war-time measure - to the point of giving control of Jerusalem to a committee of Jews and promising the restoration of the Temple, which seemed to have been his policy until the Romans took it back and of course punished the Jews for their temerity to be angry they weren't allowed to enter their own sacred city.

Oh yea, totally agreed. Heraklios probably saw them as just another proxy to fight Rome's wars against the Sassanians; a proxy of the same religion and not occupying that naturally powerful geographic position that the Sassanians held so the two could be on better speaking terms than Rome and Persia

As for the Sabians being better identified, it always warms my heart to see history, whether good or bad, be unearthed and uncovered. History is the story of the human race and every letter, syllable, word, work, picture, song, idea, etc, is an essential part to understanding it all.

The poem is also really lovely, even accounting for the fact it obviously doesn't work as well in English as it does in whatever language he wrote it in (I assume Arabic but Farsi could be). I like the theme of how every group sees something different regarding the divine in the same thing
The original poem was written in Arabic, yeah. I have a few papers on the Sabians I can throw your way in case you're interested.
 
Since the Bolsheviks were actually hoping for something like this, how would the Soviet Union have likely developed in a TL where Germany had a successful communist revolution in the immediate aftermath of World War I?

It depends in part on how it wins, but obviously there would be ideological differences in currencies in the overall Comintern. The likes of Luxemburg and Liebknecht were actually Orthodox Marxists (unlike the vision of them some people have) but they were not Bolsheviks. So it's not that hard to imagine that whatever specific German formulations were going on would gain some degree of popularity in the Soviet Union... or just as likely be used as excuses/justifications by dissident factions.

What exact excuses would be used depends on how you imagine the German revolution going, which obviously has ideological implications both in-universe (since success crowns any techniques used to achieve it, even ones that are counterproductive, as good), and out of universe (how you believe it's likely a communist revolution to succeed will clearly influence how you believe it will succeed: a Leninist, a Council Communist, and an anti-Communist TL author will probably have very different visions of what it takes to win a communist revolution.)

Obviously this is just ideological. Materially and militarily, Weimar Germany already had some important collaboration with the Soviet Union, so it's pretty hard to imagine a communist Germany having less even if you discount all ideological factors entirely, which would be a mistake (foreign policy is not about ideology, but it does have an ideological component that influences decisions in many states), and just consider the mutual interests that Germany and Russia could have.
 
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I mean you could say the same of Oda Nobunaga's rise to power, and continued consolidation.
I tend to view history as a homeostasis rather than a balance of power or hegemony. Typically you get long periods where the established order trucks along, albeit with some changing of theguard, some tinkering along the edges, before an OOC problem or convergence of factors leads to the system being overturned, and a new status quo eventually entrenching after a couple decades of violent upheaval.

Biggest examples in history are pretty much any empire you can think of (Rome, Persia, Alexander, the Ottomans), the Italian balance of Power after Lodi, the Congress of Vienna, and the current US led status quo. IMO we're headed for another upheaval due to climate change.
 
Here's a spicy idea: the Third Temple is eventually destroyed, not by Gentiles but by Jews, probably during a civil war sparked by sectarianism/a revolt against the political or religious establishment and their control of the Temple, with official motivations being something like "we fucked it up somehow!" or "we built it too early!" or even "things were better in the rabbinic period!"

While I could see it being destroyed by accident in sectarian conflict- a deeply ironic fate- it's hard to see a Jewish sect doing so deliberately. That would be like a Muslim sect deliberately destroying the Kaaba, which admittedly ISIS wants to do, so it's not impossible, just not likely.
 
While I could see it being destroyed by accident in sectarian conflict- a deeply ironic fate- it's hard to see a Jewish sect doing so deliberately. That would be like a Muslim sect deliberately destroying the Kaaba, which admittedly ISIS wants to do, so it's not impossible, just not likely.

en.wikipedia.org

Qarmatians - Wikipedia


Only if you got a Jewish Sect that saw the ideas of temples as being a form Idolatry.
 
That would be like a Muslim sect deliberately destroying the Kaaba,
en.wikipedia.org

Qarmatians - Wikipedia


Only if you got a Jewish Sect that saw the ideas of temples as being a form Idolatry.

As noted, the damn thing has been wired together because of sects that hate it doing things taking a hammer to it.

On the subject of a Third Temple--I can't help but think that an actual existing temple would wind up fostering resentment and dissident sects for the simple reason that instead of an ideal that one can feel endless nostalgia about while never having to worry about how it might fail in its purported purpose, it's a real thing with the attendant rivalries, factions and disputes that would create.
 
Since the Bolsheviks were actually hoping for something like this, how would the Soviet Union have likely developed in a TL where Germany had a successful communist revolution in the immediate aftermath of World War I?
The rest of Europe collectively shits their pants, especially if the unstable 3rd republic tumbles over too.
Poland loses some territory- probsbly Danzig and definitely Lviv.
Hungary almost certainly goes red. Spain as well.
This could easily lead to a Red Europe, since France and Italy both have strong socialist movements.

Of course communism is very different with the revolution being spread outside of Russia.
 
The more I learn about Saigo Takamori, like him wanting to start a war with Korea, wanting to put more money into the military instead of railways, and the fact that he's popular among nationalist creeps, the more I'm turned off by him. Like, I can at least understand why he'd be suspicious of the West given their colonialism, but the whole Korea thing showing he was okay with colonialism as long as it benefited him really tarnishes him.

So, the virgin Saigo Takamori vs the Chad Ryoma Sakamoto, I guess is what I'm saying. /jk
 
You know in the event that a Third Temple is built at some point - and assuming, you know, that doesn't lead to the end of the world - what happens long term? Does everyone just settle down after a couple centuries? Where does Judaism go once it gets the thing it wanted after all this time? If it gets destroyed, do people start planning for a Fourth Temple?

Wasn't animal sacrifice a big thing at the Temple? Would that come back or not - and how would Israeli authorities justify it either way?

While I could see it being destroyed by accident in sectarian conflict- a deeply ironic fate- it's hard to see a Jewish sect doing so deliberately. That would be like a Muslim sect deliberately destroying the Kaaba, which admittedly ISIS wants to do, so it's not impossible, just not likely.

It could be a Christian sect. The whole reason Evangelicals want the Temple rebuilt is so it can be destroyed again after all. :rolleyes:
 
The rest of Europe collectively shits their pants, especially if the unstable 3rd republic tumbles over too.
Poland loses some territory- probsbly Danzig and definitely Lviv.
Hungary almost certainly goes red. Spain as well.
This could easily lead to a Red Europe, since France and Italy both have strong socialist movements.

Of course communism is very different with the revolution being spread outside of Russia.

The Third Republic is absolutely unstable, but it also won the war and did so decisively. It'll probably survive the initial wave unless something really crazy happens, but it'll also be a country with a strong (if divided) socialist movement and a more powerful and successful* communist bloc just to the east, going, "Join us, join us." So it might be a long-term reach depending on whether the Great Depression still happens.

Spain is complicated because of a lot of cases... but is protected in part because they didn't take part in WWI, so might weather it, maybe.

Italy, though? That's definitely up in the air and something the communists might be able to swing.

*Even if you take an anti-communist viewpoint, it's hard to be less successful with more industrial resources and economic power, so it'll be at least additively more successful than OTL in terms of prosperity of the bloc or whatnot as a whole.
 
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You know in the event that a Third Temple is built at some point - and assuming, you know, that doesn't lead to the end of the world - what happens long term? Does everyone just settle down after a couple centuries? Where does Judaism go once it gets the thing it wanted after all this time? If it gets destroyed, do people start planning for a Fourth Temple?

I suspect that a third temple being built would have different impacts depending on exactly who becomes the priesthood of the new temple and what the larger cultural context is.

Looking at the impact of the construction of the second temple... I mean, it is hard to understate the importance of that event for world history. It may be that the building of a third temple would lead to a similar Jewish reformation.

Or it might have been one of those events that wouldn't lead to much obvious change.

As to the matter of the Parsi, I would like to note that I am a Zoroastrian myself and I am indeed familiar with the importance of the Parsi, however it is simply not true to say that the majority of the actual literature we have is from Parsi sources. While it is true that there are indeed many sources we have from the Parsi, there are still Zoroastrians in Iran, from which we have the Greater Bundahishn, the original Khorde Avesta and many more. The Parsis have preserved many texts for us, yatha ahu vairyo, but they are not the only source and indeed there is a long pattern of Parsis going to Iran whenever a question of orthodoxy appears at home, because Iran was always imagined as the "homeland of orthodoxy". That is the origin of the Rivayats, which originated as questions sent from Parsi mobads to Iranian mobads to ask questions about their procedures, beliefs and practices which would then be sent back with answers. Both communities remained in contact with each other.

Really? There are so many questions I could ask you if you have time!

I knew a few important texts had survived in the Iranian Zoroastrian communities, but not that so many had.

fasquardon
 
You know in the event that a Third Temple is built at some point - and assuming, you know, that doesn't lead to the end of the world - what happens long term? Does everyone just settle down after a couple centuries? Where does Judaism go once it gets the thing it wanted after all this time? If it gets destroyed, do people start planning for a Fourth Temple?
Assuming the Temple being constructed doesn't cause massive outrage cause... y'know. The Waqf would reject any construction attempts. Orthodox Jews won't accept building the Third Temple since it requires the Messiah to have arrived and the start of the Messianic age. There's a chance that animal sacrifices start up again, but that's a... very unlikely thing. The Temple itself has to be constructed in a very specific way using cubits, and we're not entirely sure the exact size of the cubit. And halakha prohibits us from entering the Holy of Holies, the inner sanctuary of the Temple, and we're not entirely sure where the exact location of that is.
 
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