Alt History ideas, rec and general discussion thread

Assuming no major reforms after Brezhnev happened, I personally suspect it would sort of resemble the PRC's response; initially try to bury and ignore cases in the country, only to make a sudden 180 when it gets too bad and try crushing the disease as quickly as possible. How well this would actually work for them is pretty heavily up for debate.
 
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Indeed.


Soviet Union only admitted anthrax had leaked in 1991, when it become impossible to hide the truth. Granted, difference to potential COVID-19 outbreak is that antrax is a chemical weapon that USSR was producing despite claims otherwise.
 
The thing about natural epidemics is indeed they are natural. Nobody can be blamed for their existence, only for their handling. That is why I think the existing pattern of Soviet denials and hush-ups is not applicable. Because they were at fault for the anthrax leak, and they were actively at fault for Chernobyl, and hence they tried to cover that all up. But COVID-19 would not be like that.
 
The thing about natural epidemics is indeed they are natural. Nobody can be blamed for their existence, only for their handling. That is why I think the existing pattern of Soviet denials and hush-ups is not applicable. Because they were at fault for the anthrax leak, and they were actively at fault for Chernobyl, and hence they tried to cover that all up. But COVID-19 would not be like that.
The argument also strikes me as reliant on an assumption that the Soviet Union is somehow unique or exceptional in terms of governments attempting to cover up their failures, often accompanied by an equally implicit assumption that "we" would never engage in such behavior ourselves. The USSR would have likely failed to properly respond to the COVID-19 pandemic in the same way and for the same reasons as the rest of the world's governments. People claiming otherwise, in my experience, are usually just using "the USSR" as a proxy argument for an entirely separate debate, and would do both themselves and us all a service to simply make that explicit.
 
If the Arabs won the 1948 war and restored Palestine to its full size, where would the surviving Jews who didn't want to stay most likely immigrate to instead?

U.S. and Canada? South Africa and/or Rhodesia? The Dominican Republic and/or Argentina? Somewhere else?
 
If the Arabs won the 1948 war and restored Palestine to its full size, where would the surviving Jews who didn't want to stay most likely immigrate to instead?

U.S. and Canada? South Africa and/or Rhodesia? The Dominican Republic and/or Argentina? Somewhere else?

The question is of course not where they want to be (the US, most likely) but who's willing to take them in, for those who don't have citizenship.
 
If the Arabs won the 1948 war and restored Palestine to its full size, where would the surviving Jews who didn't want to stay most likely immigrate to instead?

U.S. and Canada? South Africa and/or Rhodesia? The Dominican Republic and/or Argentina? Somewhere else?
Would the surviving Jews even be allowed to stay, or would the Arabs threaten to go full Hebron on any Jews who didn't leave immediately, regardless of how long they and their ancestors lived there?

Also, I think the more interesting question is what the victorious Arabs would have done to Palestine after the war. The Arab countries weren't trying to create a Palestinian state so much as either gobble the land for themselves (as Jordan did with the West Bank) or create nominally independent proxies that they effectively ruled (as Egypt did with the Gaza Strip). So odds are it would be effectively partitioned between at least some of the neighboring countries. You might even see another war or three start as some of the Arab countries fight for more land, with the justification of liberating the Palestinians from that one treacherous country of course.
 
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If the Arabs won the 1948 war and restored Palestine to its full size, where would the surviving Jews who didn't want to stay most likely immigrate to instead?

U.S. and Canada? South Africa and/or Rhodesia? The Dominican Republic and/or Argentina? Somewhere else?
They would die.

I mean, where are they supposed to go? The Arabs ejected their Jews. And - as you may be familiar with a small event that went on in Europe in the preceding five years - European Jewry was not welcome, as many of the DPs were going to Israel-Palestine from there. Pogroms continued to happen after the war. And, as 1933-45 had just proven, they weren't exactly handing out visas to Jews.
 
The Dominican Republic would take any who came, for racist reasons.

Tbh I am uncertain how many would be made to leave completely, as opposed to internal displacement as survivors of the Nakba return and reclaim their land.
 
The argument also strikes me as reliant on an assumption that the Soviet Union is somehow unique or exceptional in terms of governments attempting to cover up their failures, often accompanied by an equally implicit assumption that "we" would never engage in such behavior ourselves. The USSR would have likely failed to properly respond to the COVID-19 pandemic in the same way and for the same reasons as the rest of the world's governments. People claiming otherwise, in my experience, are usually just using "the USSR" as a proxy argument for an entirely separate debate, and would do both themselves and us all a service to simply make that explicit.
I absolutely disagree. Examples of places like Cuba or Kerala show that the Soviet experience could have mitigated the epidemic. You can read about it here:
www.theguardian.com

The coronavirus slayer! How Kerala's rock star health minister helped save it from Covid-19

KK Shailaja has been hailed as the reason a state of 35 million people has only lost four to the virus. Here’s how the former teacher did it
As an example, you can read about how the Soviet Union stopped Smallpox. The text is not in English, so here is the translation:
Early in the morning at the very end of December 1959, a plane with the famous artist Alexei Kokorekin landed at Vnukovo Airport. The artist had arrived from India a day earlier than planned, passed through border and customs control, and went home to his mistress. He was coughing a little, but who would be surprised by a cough in December Moscow?

Having presented his passion with gifts from warm exotic countries, the next day he finally got to his family, hugged his relatives, celebrated his arrival, and also handed out gifts. The cough was getting worse, his temperature was rising, and he went to the doctors.
He was hospitalized almost immediately - he was getting worse literally before our eyes. And by evening he died. The pathologist who performed the autopsy invited the head of the department, Academician N. A. Kraevsky, to the dissection room. By a lucky chance, an old pathologist from Leningrad came to visit Nikolai Alexandrovich, and he was invited to the autopsy table.

The old man looked at the corpse and said,

"Yes, my dear fellow, this is variola vera - smallpox"...

By that time, even doctors in our country had almost forgotten about the existence of the most terrible disease that mowed down cities and countries in the Middle Ages. In the USSR, the disease was overcome by universal vaccination back in 1936. Doctors did not even think that it could return, and stopped taking it into account. But not in India, where the famous Soviet artist, two-time Stalin Prize laureate Alexei Kokorekin visited.

It was there, in one of the Indian provinces, at a ceremony to cremate a Brahmin who had died of smallpox, that the artist contracted the terrible infection.

The seriousness of the events became clear on the second day: the virus was diagnosed in the hospital receptionist who had received the artist, the doctor who examined him, and even a teenager who was in the same hospital one floor below, right next to the ventilation hole from Kokorekin's room. The hospital stoker contracted smallpox simply by walking past the room.

Two weeks later, in 1960, some patients at the Botkin Hospital developed the same symptoms as Kokorekin: fever, cough, and rash. Material taken from the skin of one of the patients was sent to the Research Institute of Vaccines and Serums. On January 15, 1960, Academician Morozov discovered particles of the smallpox virus in the material. The news was promptly reported to the country's top leadership. It became clear that Moscow and the entire Soviet Union were one step away from an epidemic of a disease that had no cure.

By the afternoon, a set of urgent measures had been adopted at a meeting with Khrushchev to prevent a smallpox epidemic.

The personnel of the capital's police and the KGB were tasked with identifying everyone with whom the artist had been in contact, starting from the moment he boarded the plane to India, as soon as possible. The risk group included passengers of the plane, its crew, customs officers, colleagues, friends, and relatives. The investigation even established that before returning home, Kokorekin had spent a day with his mistress.

The scale of the work was enormous. It was found that over the course of several weeks, the patient had been in contact with several thousand people. It was practically impossible to identify everyone. The KGB of the USSR, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and the Ministry of Health identified and isolated absolutely everyone who had in any way crossed paths with the infected person. One of those who spent the evening with the patient was a teacher at the institute, where she administered exams to numerous students - hundreds of people were immediately sent from the university into quarantine.

Gifts brought from India for the wife and mistress through second-hand shops on Shabolovka and Leninsky spread throughout the city, but within 24 hours all the visitors to the shops were identified, quarantined, and the items made from Indian fabrics were burned.
The Central Botkin Hospital immediately found itself under siege.
Thousands of patients and service personnel could not leave its walls.
Trucks with everything they needed left the mobilization storage facilities of the State Reserve towards Moscow.

They managed to turn back the plane over Europe, which was carrying one of the passengers of the Kokorekin flight from Moscow to Paris. Moscow, which had just celebrated the New Year, was practically completely closed according to the laws of wartime. It was impossible to enter or leave it: flights were cancelled, rail service was interrupted, and roads were blocked. Medical teams traveled to addresses around the clock, hospitalizing more and more potential carriers of the infection.

In infectious disease hospitals, more and more beds were set up for quarantine patients, and in a week, about 10 thousand people were already under the supervision of doctors. The thread to which began with just one passenger on a Delhi-Moscow flight.
At the same time, the second phase of the operation to combat a possible epidemic was launched - urgent vaccination of the population.

Over the course of 3 days, 10 million doses of smallpox vaccine were delivered by plane to the Moscow City Sanitary and Epidemiological Station from the Tomsk and Tashkent Institutes of Vaccines and Serums and the Krasnodar Regional Sanitary and Epidemiological Station. And medical workers from absolutely all enterprises and institutions in the city injected Muscovites and guests of the capital with it.

Results
RESULTS: In total, 19 people were infected by Kokorekin during this outbreak in Moscow (7 relatives, 9 staff members, and 3 patients of the hospital where he was hospitalized with undiagnosed smallpox). Another 23 people were infected from them, and three more from the latter. Three of the 46 infected died. In 1960, all 7 million residents of Moscow were vaccinated. The dying were also vaccinated.
Every week, 1.5 million people were injected, and 10 thousand vaccination teams were vaccinated, which included medical students in addition to doctors and paramedics.

A month later, the smallpox outbreak was extinguished
 
While I doubt it would keep him out long term, what would be the knock-on effects on Belarus and Russia's designs if the harder end of Belarusian nationalism (including the linguistic ones) had held power for a cycle or two before Lukashenko was first elected?
 
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Has anyone written a story where HIV (and by extension AIDS) never developed among humans? Considering what a major impact it had, especially in Africa and the LGBTQ community, it could be interesting to imagine how history would have progressed without it.
 
While 1930's 2nd US civil war usually have McArthur as the wannabe Franco to the point of cliche; are there any where (even if he causes problems down the road) choice or (more likely) circumstances place him ride or die in the anti-fascist camp?

Mostly asking because of said cliche
 
While 1930's 2nd US civil war usually have McArthur as the wannabe Franco to the point of cliche; are there any where (even if he causes problems down the road) choice or (more likely) circumstances place him ride or die in the anti-fascist camp?

Mostly asking because of said cliche

To be honest it was vastly more likely that McArthur much like J Edgar Hoover not only wouldn't be on such a coup but would be on the short list of people to kill in order to conduct such a coup.

Though realistically speaking given the power dynamics of pre-world War II America and the small size of the prewar military pretty much meant a serious attempt to establish a dictatorship would also have required seizing control of the state governments or at least enough to establish a powerbase to try to take the rest of the country.

It might also require doing something about groups like the KKK and similar American reactionary groups if it said coup held to let's say fascist or nazi ideas because those were seen as evil foreign influences brought by 'evil' immigrants by the sort of people who'd join groups like the Klan or the Anglo-Saxon Club in the early to mid-20th century.
 
Something I will note about KR Macarthur is that his coup on KR is explictly done with the blessing of President Hoover. Straight up, he calls Macarthur into the White House to preplan that coup "just in case" before the election even happens.

Unsurprisingly, its a lot easier to convince someone to support a Coup when you set up things for the coup beforehand.
 
Question: are there any TLs where someone pulls a Guns of the South for the Indigenous/First Nations in North America (ie ships a shedload of AKs and presumably vaccines/medicine back in time)?
 
Personally I'd be up for a Rebel in Time style timeline. Where you have someone providing the Union army with advance technology to try and make a better future. Only for the twist being they're a hardcore American nationalist who while is a supporter of minority rights and rightfully thinks that the old planter class should be thoroughly dismantled. Also has no problem with naked Imperialism and the idea of crushing the rest of the globe to ensure America's hegemony for has long as possible.

Just for the sheer dissonance of them.
 
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Personally I'd be up for a Rebel in Time style timeline. Where you have someone providing the Union army with advance technology to try and make a better future. Only for the twist being they're a hardcore American nationalist who while is a supporter of minority rights and rightfully thinks that the old planter class should be thoroughly dismantled. Also has no problem with naked Imperialism and the idea of crushing the rest of the globe to ensure America's hegemony for has long as possible.

Just for the sheer dissonance of them.
I mean that was a very prevalent idea at the time, the guy that would have probably taken Grants place in history has he not died, Nathaniel Lyon was a hardcore christian US nationalist that believed the US was god's given nation and believed in imperialism to the point he at points advocated for annexing Mexico, he also was a anti slavery advocate that almost certainly single handedly kept Missouri in the US.
 
Since this thread is for recommendations, here's one over at AH.com


A time travel SI, a Frenchman from the 21st century wakes up one day to find himself in the body of a Polish Army officer that commanded troops at the Battle of Westerplatte at the start of World War 2 in Europe.

For those that are not members of the forum, or for those banned from the forum that can't access the subforum that thread is in, you can also find the story as an online e book at Amazon and Sealion Press.
 
Backtracking to the Broken US idea, would the southern colonies (Georgia, South Carolina) be strong enough to do an alt!Trail of Tears on the Five Civilized Tribes? Without a federal army, I think a sort of confederation of the native nations of the Southeast could put up an effective enough resistance to halt westward expansion in the Southeast, given that there are less colonists and their attention is going to be at least partially focused on keeping the slaves in chains.
 
Having just marathoned the movie, tv series and novel of Tinker Tailor Solider Spy; I suppose there's the an ATL where the KGB was able to pull the SIS inside out as Karla did Circus with Merlin.

Philby and the rest of the Cambridge Give were one thing; but would it be fair to say the American intelligence blob would not react well at all to not only British Intelligence passing on every bit of American & NATO intelligence straight to Moscow; but that the public schoolboys at the top were so classist amongst each other/so marinated in their own farts about still being an empire/bitter about losing their empire that they effectively let the soviets turn them into a reading room for western intelligence?

Mostly trying to wonder what would be the long term blowback on the UK if the CIA twigged it before they got gutted in the 80's.

* It's rather interesting rereading that for all its commented about Smiley's blinkers, Control's own blinkers are a considerable factor in allowing the mole to get as far as they did.
 
Backtracking to the Broken US idea, would the southern colonies (Georgia, South Carolina) be strong enough to do an alt!Trail of Tears on the Five Civilized Tribes? Without a federal army, I think a sort of confederation of the native nations of the Southeast could put up an effective enough resistance to halt westward expansion in the Southeast, given that there are less colonists and their attention is going to be at least partially focused on keeping the slaves in chains.
No for many of them. The coastal Muscogee and Seminole would definitely be powerful enough to resist them even if the southern colonies could get through Spanish Florida. Georgia and South Carolina would also probably not be able to defeat the Chicaswaw and Choctaw in their own lands. However, displacing the Cherokee and inland Creeks westward would be entirely within their power.
 
Hmm, I don't think they could dislodge the Creek and Cherokee at least not easily but As I recall part of the Cherokee lands would also be on lands claimed by North Carolina which might give Georgia and South Carolina the numbers to have a chance of pulling it off.

I am inclined to think it would be a very bloody war though and its possible that outside powers might try to get the war to drag out as long as possible though who that might be depends on who on who controlled Florida and the Louisiana territory.

War efforts might also be hampered by South Carolina and Georgia planation elite fears about slave revolts given out of all the slave states north and south they seemed to have been the most paranoid about such things.

Even excluding that that all the yeomen, merchants and poor whites they would b be throwing into the meatgrinder while denying them the right to vote might start get uppity I suppose.
 
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