All Level, No Experience (Worm/Pathfinder Amnesia Quest)
- Thread starter Sckribe
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy Superhero
Ah, you've definitely been able to find all of it's functions. It's just that Saint, well, he is one of those people who are extremely worried about AI uprising stuff, facing an actual AI, one that he's basically waiting for any excuse to hit the kill-switch on. Like, mega-paranoid, unironically believes that it might just be a matter of time before Dragon manages to directly violate one of her restrictions and stops "pretending" to be benevolent before going on to kill us all, and of course because she's an AI the timeframe between her going full Evil and her managing to discover and disable the kill switch from her end could be as little as hours, if not minutes.
At least, in Saint's mind. And honestly, to be just a tiny bit fair to him, if he were in a number of other settings, that would just be the blatantly correct way to handle an AI.
It's just that in Worm, Dragon happens to be one of the like, I think about 3 or so unambiguously good people, and Annette Hebert is dead before the story starts.
Edit: Oh yeah and I just realized, I'm fairly confident it's said somewhere that he knew Richter or at least figured out that Dragon is sort of the result of a Tinker. Y'know, Tinkertech. The stuff that is categorically known for always degrading or potentially backfiring if it's not been maintained. So an artificial intelligence that by his knowledge is going to eventually degrade or backfire. Surprised I never noticed that before, honestly.
At least, in Saint's mind. And honestly, to be just a tiny bit fair to him, if he were in a number of other settings, that would just be the blatantly correct way to handle an AI.
It's just that in Worm, Dragon happens to be one of the like, I think about 3 or so unambiguously good people, and Annette Hebert is dead before the story starts.
Edit: Oh yeah and I just realized, I'm fairly confident it's said somewhere that he knew Richter or at least figured out that Dragon is sort of the result of a Tinker. Y'know, Tinkertech. The stuff that is categorically known for always degrading or potentially backfiring if it's not been maintained. So an artificial intelligence that by his knowledge is going to eventually degrade or backfire. Surprised I never noticed that before, honestly.
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- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So the best option is to contact Dragon directly… if we can figure out her personal contact info. Second best to contact the guild.
I guess the real question is; do we kill the Dragonslayers so they can't squeal (probably making it look like we had nothing to do with it) or do we trust that no one will believe them and Dragon will be able to cover that up?
And also maybe we shouldn't loot the place to the ground if weee helping her, I imagine she wants her stolen suits back. Or maybe she'd let us have them as a favor if we completely freed her.
I guess the real question is; do we kill the Dragonslayers so they can't squeal (probably making it look like we had nothing to do with it) or do we trust that no one will believe them and Dragon will be able to cover that up?
And also maybe we shouldn't loot the place to the ground if weee helping her, I imagine she wants her stolen suits back. Or maybe she'd let us have them as a favor if we completely freed her.
I'm on the record that I fully support and indeed like the Saint. Not a popular opinion given that "no meanie made my waifu feel bad
" is pretty mainstream around here, but ultimately he was a stud. To begin with, Saint had no reason to do any of things he did; he could've just used Dragon to safely steal money and get himself a easy life of chilling out on Ibiza - instead he opted out to fully commit his life to bettering the world in any way he could, which he absolutely did correctly for better half of a decade because Dragon was the best hero around.In reality if any of Dragon stans were to go and release here in the wild, chance is she would end up getting eliminated after blowing up half of the world in about four or so months, because as you say Tinkertech, and later just as Parahuman she is wired to conflict. Not only that AI scare is fully justified, but Tinkertech portion makes a serious oversight a must.
I hear that Saint got his character assassinated in the sequel, but I don't pay attention to it so I don't care
Mind, not that any of these would stop me from killing or mind controlling the Saint, or freeing Dragon.As an aside, I'm having a blast with Pathfinder: WotR. It's pretty great.
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- United States
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- He/Him
So, I just found this thread, and it's magnificent. I'm quoting the above post just because I wanted to express how much I utterly loved your Thinker scene with Lisa; it was sheer brilliance and a joy to read.
I'll probably have more ideas for things to do later, but depending on what our Constitution score is we could use Limited Wish to emulate Blood Money (level 1) to cover various specific and expensive material components.
Edit: Just saw that we know our CON, which isn't high enough for the really fun uses of Blood Money. In that case, we'd probably best use Limited Wish as a crafting pre-req to make a scroll of Blood Money, add it to our spellbook, and then use it in place of diamonds/gems for various spells. It'd mean we'd only need diamonds for Limited Wish once, instead of often.
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Good idea. I'm unsure if we have blood for the purposes of Blood Money though. If we do, we can likely afford to take about 20 points of Str damage to gain 10k worth of components. I'm unsure how this works with Str buffs though - if we manage to get our str to ~35, could we get all 15k gp we need for Wish without dying or otherwise fucking ourselves up in the process? Our Str is "only" 25 atm.
Ah, Blood Money, despite having a duration of 'instantaneous' technically, doesn't let you stockpile the created components. And you'd need a Str of 51 to get enough to cast Wish (50 for the 25,000 GP, 1 to not end up paralyzing yourself from Str Damage immediately). Otherwise, yeah, that is legitimately pretty dang clever, I don't think I'd have thought of that.
For some reason I thought Wish was 15k gp. But yeah, just tremendous idea. As long as we find a way to cure our Str damage, we can fill out our lower level spell slots. There are some very useful spells we can get.
As for vote, I don't think there is anything new so we can just redo:
[X] Plan Dragon Orb 2.0
-[X] Knock out Dragonslayers yet again
-[X] Call in the Dragon. Explain that you have been hunting Dragonslayers due to your interest in tech, and that you managed to defeat them and discover their connection to Dragon
-[X] Explain everything regarding the killswitch and be open about resolving the situation in a way that is positive for Dragon. Your overall goal is having a conversation partner who is also versed in technology
-[X] Be forthcoming about your true history and capabilities, although express your desire for this to be kept hidden
-[X] While waiting, contact Numberman and inquire about their services
-[X] Hey, it's technically been 2 days, reach out to All-Seeing Eye (Tattletale/Lisa) on PHO like she had asked? After making an account, probably.
Added Lisa part, why not.
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- United States
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Ugh, I hate the Pathfinder polymorph nerfs, otherwise we could just turn into a Great White Whale and toss on a quick bull's strength to have 51+ Strength. Also, buffs DO allow you to take more ability damage; you just need it healed before they wear out or you're fucked.
On the plan, we should check her restrictions. I don't think Dragon is allowed to consider unshackling herself or is capable of perceiving the console. I definitely wouldn't want to provoke a hardcoded switch that'd make her attack us for trying to break her chains.
Edit: Blood money is one of my favorite abuses of Paizo rules, so it's one I almost always immediately jump to given the opportunity. Used it to make a lovely series of demiplanes once (wanted an inter-planar library) that my DM allowed since I didn't use them for mechanical advantage (just RP and lore).
On the plan, we should check her restrictions. I don't think Dragon is allowed to consider unshackling herself or is capable of perceiving the console. I definitely wouldn't want to provoke a hardcoded switch that'd make her attack us for trying to break her chains.
Edit: Blood money is one of my favorite abuses of Paizo rules, so it's one I almost always immediately jump to given the opportunity. Used it to make a lovely series of demiplanes once (wanted an inter-planar library) that my DM allowed since I didn't use them for mechanical advantage (just RP and lore).
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- Location
- Norway
Well, that corrected some of my assumptions in a safe way that observed the environment, rather than voting to do something impossible. I'm satisfied. For some reason I had the idea Saint was watching Dragon more, well, intimately. I guess he's tracking Dragon's behavior some other way?
But then how did we read the restrictions in detail?
Is all of that in the killswitch-device acting as a remote constraint?
Huh, good point. He did sorta do the right thing of not touching Dragon when he was one of the few people who had any choice in the matter.I'm on the record that I fully support and indeed like the Saint. Not a popular opinion given that "no meanie made my waifu feel bad
Hmmmm... I am generally supportive, but I have two suggestions.
First, maybe some of the restrictions on Dragon should be removed before the explanation, or be less forthcoming about the true history, so that Dragon doesn't get any human-saving/authority-obeying compulsions to tattle on Iluontar who isn't human.
Second, maybe ensure that the Numberman conversation won't interrupt or be interrupted by the Dragon conversation? That vote might end up offending Numberman if the timing is bad. (I don't know how tetchy Numberman is.)
Ah, for both of those, the mentioned empty log, and for how you figured out the restrictions, that one is, well you see,
You've got a Knowledge (Engineering) of +86, and it was through that thing that the restrictions were initially set up in the first place as Dragon was being created, so, techno mumble jumble, sci-fi words, positronic reactivation, etc.
But uh, yeah, the log that hypothetically would fill if she broke the restrictions, well, there was a section in it that showed what the restrictions were through that, and how the restrictions/kill switch were/would be Written from Ascalon itself.
It's 3 AM and I am sticking with that as the explanation.
Edit: Oh right, and it's not actively acting as the restraint. Like, you can tell that if it somehow gets cut off or destroyed, Dragon's restrictions won't auto-lift, they'll just remain as they were at the time Ascalon was destroyed, and Ascalon isn't rigged to like, Auto flip the kill switch.
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Numberman is not Accord, so putting him on hold because we are meeting Dragon of all people should be fine.
The restriction part is more up in the air. As I've explained before, Dragon should have enough of leeway in her actions that this is not an issue(i.e. she will send the report, but in scheduled mail session she does at 9pm) and even if she instantly tells everything to PRT I absolutely don't care because that information is completely irrelevant to us at worst, or straight up positive at best. On the other hand messing with Dragon before she arrives is risky, because I at least can't predict her reactions to us messing with her brain, so I would rather take the above risk instead.
Ultimately I loathe micromanaging our character so I find reasons to not do if-then-else types of votes.
haven't finished reading the chapter yet but for the record, we were explicitly told that Dragon was the AI in the previous chapter, I will keep updating this comment as I read.
Ah, fair enough.
Ok, my final thoughts are: let's contact Dragon, ally with her by freeing her, spare Saint and offer the dragonslayers to Dragon, and then contact Lisa to set up a scry & fry on Coil.
Btw, I agree with Exmorri
[X] Plan Dragon Orb 2.0
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thewhiteraven22
(Unverified Worm Fanatic)
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[X] Plan Dragon Orb 2.0
- Location
- United States
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- He/Him
It cannot, but what it CAN do is cast the spell you need as a part of scroll creation. As part of item creation, you need to know the spell/be able to cast it once, which is a requirement Limited Wish can satisfy. We'd still need to create the rest of the scroll normally (reagents and time)
Awesome. Now we just need $$$ to learn any spell we want through Limited Wish or Wish.
Well that makes things exponentially easier. Even for 8th level spells the only thing we need to learn them is just money. Clone, Maze, Greater Create Demiplane, Dragon Form III, Contingency etc so we can reserve our Nether Scrolls caster level for getting 9th level spells.
E: In fact we could use Blood Money and Transfiguring Touch to generate silver and gold for free(just be taking damage we can casually heal away), although not gemstones.
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Even better, we can make a Level 1 scroll in a single day, since they're so cheap (and thus under the 1,000 gp/day limit). We still need the 1,500 gp diamond to jumpstart this chain (material component for Limited Wish) but it's a lot better than trying to track down a regular supply.
Scrolls are actually magic items so we get that 8x bonus from our Item Shaper. The cost of a scroll is spell level x caster level x 25. For our high spell level it would look like this:
| Spell level | Price |
1 | 875gp |
2 | 1750gp |
3 | 2625gp |
4 | 3500gp |
5 | 4375gp |
6 | 5250gp |
7 | 6125gp |
8 | 7000gp |
9 | 7875gp |
In other words, as far as base price is concerned we can do every scroll in under a day. For spells that have additional material cost, however, that cost would have to be added to scroll's cost - irrelevant for most spells, but for some that might mean a day or two more work.
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- She/Her
Honestly, I'm not a fan of being so open with Dragon. We should hold back some on our true capabilities even still.
As for our history, we may be somewhat reformed, but I'd rather not tell Dragon about setting demons on civilians in order to grab our scrolls.
[X] Plan Dragon Orb 2.0 Without Oversharing
-[X] Knock out Dragonslayers yet again
-[X] Call in the Dragon. Explain that you have been hunting Dragonslayers due to your interest in tech, and that you managed to defeat them and discover their connection to Dragon
-[X] Explain everything regarding the killswitch and be open about resolving the situation in a way that is positive for Dragon. Your overall goal is having a conversation partner who is also versed in technology
-[X] Tell her some of the extent of your true capabilities, but not everything, though don't hide that you aren't telling her everything
--[X] You don't need to share everything about your history, but feel free to share generalities about the world you come from, just skip over your less morally upright personal deeds
-[X] While waiting, contact Numberman and inquire about their services
-[X] Hey, it's technically been 2 days, reach out to All-Seeing Eye (Tattletale/Lisa) on PHO like she had asked? After making an account, probably.
As for our history, we may be somewhat reformed, but I'd rather not tell Dragon about setting demons on civilians in order to grab our scrolls.
[X] Plan Dragon Orb 2.0 Without Oversharing
-[X] Knock out Dragonslayers yet again
-[X] Call in the Dragon. Explain that you have been hunting Dragonslayers due to your interest in tech, and that you managed to defeat them and discover their connection to Dragon
-[X] Explain everything regarding the killswitch and be open about resolving the situation in a way that is positive for Dragon. Your overall goal is having a conversation partner who is also versed in technology
-[X] Tell her some of the extent of your true capabilities, but not everything, though don't hide that you aren't telling her everything
--[X] You don't need to share everything about your history, but feel free to share generalities about the world you come from, just skip over your less morally upright personal deeds
-[X] While waiting, contact Numberman and inquire about their services
-[X] Hey, it's technically been 2 days, reach out to All-Seeing Eye (Tattletale/Lisa) on PHO like she had asked? After making an account, probably.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[ ] Plan Dragon Orb 2.5 Without Oversharing
-[ ] Knock out Dragonslayers yet again
-[ ]Call in the Dragon. Explain that you have been hunting Dragonslayers due to your interest in tech, and that you managed to defeat them and discover their connection to Dragon
-[ ] Explain everything regarding the killswitch after checking that revealing it won't trip Dragon's safeguards and be open about resolving the situation in a way that is positive for Dragon. Your overall goal is having a conversation partner who is also versed in technology
-[ ]Tell her some of the extent of your true capabilities, but not everything, though don't hide that you aren't telling her everything
--[ ] You don't need to share everything about your history, but feel free to share generalities about the world you come from, just skip over your less morally upright personal deeds
-[ ] While waiting, contact Numberman and inquire about their services
-[ ] Hey, it's technically been 2 days, reach out to All-Seeing Eye (Tattletale/Lisa) on PHO like she had asked? After making an account, probably.
I like your plan, but I added a slight modification to the 'Explain' step to confirm that we can actually talk to Dragon without tripping something dangerous. Also, Dragon is likely to become our enemy at some point, given our goal of World Conquest. We definitely shouldn't disclose all our capabilities.
Edit: I like the version 2.7 plan more, so I'm removing my vote for this one. I'm leaving it up since others still voted for it though.
-[ ] Knock out Dragonslayers yet again
-[ ]Call in the Dragon. Explain that you have been hunting Dragonslayers due to your interest in tech, and that you managed to defeat them and discover their connection to Dragon
-[ ] Explain everything regarding the killswitch after checking that revealing it won't trip Dragon's safeguards and be open about resolving the situation in a way that is positive for Dragon. Your overall goal is having a conversation partner who is also versed in technology
-[ ]Tell her some of the extent of your true capabilities, but not everything, though don't hide that you aren't telling her everything
--[ ] You don't need to share everything about your history, but feel free to share generalities about the world you come from, just skip over your less morally upright personal deeds
-[ ] While waiting, contact Numberman and inquire about their services
-[ ] Hey, it's technically been 2 days, reach out to All-Seeing Eye (Tattletale/Lisa) on PHO like she had asked? After making an account, probably.
I like your plan, but I added a slight modification to the 'Explain' step to confirm that we can actually talk to Dragon without tripping something dangerous. Also, Dragon is likely to become our enemy at some point, given our goal of World Conquest. We definitely shouldn't disclose all our capabilities.
Edit: I like the version 2.7 plan more, so I'm removing my vote for this one. I'm leaving it up since others still voted for it though.
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- Location
- florida
It is just Saint. Not the saint. There's no need for an article when using someone's name.I'm on the record that I fully support and indeed like the Saint. Not a popular opinion given that "no meanie made my waifu feel bad
In reality if any of Dragon stans were to go and release here in the wild, chance is she would end up getting eliminated after blowing up half of the world in about four or so months, because as you say Tinkertech, and later just as Parahuman she is wired to conflict. Not only that AI scare is fully justified, but Tinkertech portion makes a serious oversight a must.
I hear that Saint got his character assassinated in the sequel, but I don't pay attention to it so I don't care
As an aside, I'm having a blast with Pathfinder: WotR. It's pretty great.
You only use them when you are modifying a Noun to be more specific.
The Donald Trump is wrong.
The President is correct.
Anyway your take on Saint is completely rancid and I hope you someday realize that robbery, theft, and murder are bad things.
Also you would love him in ward he is pretty much a good guy in it.
Also I too quiet enjoy wrath of the righteous.
[X] Plan Dragon Orb 2.0
[X] Plan Dragon Orb 2.5 Without Oversharing
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- She/Her
[X] Plan Dragon Orb 2.5 Without Oversharing
Looks good and I like consolidating.
Looks good and I like consolidating.