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Advice and Trust [NGE]

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MoroseMobius said:
So we should visit the sins of the mother upon the daughter?
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As said, no. This would be about what Ritsuko has done to Rei II. But if there is a Rei III, then she will be as much Rei I as she is Rei II. And do you really think Rei I, whose last attempt at an Akagi didn't even care if its Ritsuko or Naoko, would only have a tenth of the patience and forebearance as Rei II? So Rei III, a synthesis of Rei II and Rei I... she will not go off to just kill Ritsuko because of Rei II's influence. But she most likely also will be stop forgiving to Ritsuko due to Rei I's influence.

You seem to hold that a person cannot redeem themselves.
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No, I state as a descriptive statement that there is no such thing as objective redemption. How could there be? Who would measure it, and where it would be posted? All there is in the end is individual forgiveness from people. And yes, it is entirely in the right of people to not give forgiveness. The idea that there is an obligation to forgiveness is frankly monstrous, because it misses the very core of what forgiveness is - an undeserved act of mercy, as by definition all acts of mercy are! My argument is that it is entirely Asuka's right to never forgive and forever hold her in contempt.

As for "the stated primary goal of justice in our society", retribution IS still accepted part of that. If you want to come with is-arguments to argue ought, at least do get the is right. And this is important, because one important part of the justice system is that we outsource our justice to it. We trust the justice system to punish people, and hence we don't take justice into our own hands. As such @ManusDomine is absolutely right that Ritsuko is ideally tried at court. Then she can sit 15 years in prison and be redeemed in the eyes of the law.

...but even then it would be Asuka's prerogative to still loathe her.

That is "treating a person fairly". That HAS to include judging them for what they have done. And Ritsuko isn't even in the "make amends" phase yet, not by far. As I've said, so far at best she is making sure to minimize further damage; making sure she doesn't owe even more to Rei - but she isn't yet repaying.

GeshronTyler said:
A number of schools of philosophies/religions (also psychological observations) hold that actively hating/expressing hate/"violence" is damaging to that person's soul/psyche, which is why "letting go of negative feelings" is so emphasized. Asuka in essence harms herself, if she holds on to her anger.
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Even if we hold that to be true, seeing as we're speaking of Asuka's own psyche, that would still be her prerogative. But still, I don't say Asuka has to be consumed by hate and desire for revenge. At best would be to not just never think of Ritsuko again. That is still compatible with never forgiving her. Just forever the icy shoulder and whenever she does appear again, contempt.

Recompense can often not be made directly anyway, actions and their consequences often cannot be undone if the damage is pschological,
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Indeed. That is why giving the victims satisfaction by successful retribution is the best what still can be done.

landcollector said:
Getting awful petty here imo. Rei is the final arbiter, and she has chosen to give Ritsuko her second chance. Asuka has no right to forcibly demand and hold Ritsuko to promise to being killed.
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I didn't mean that. It's just... if Ritsuko tells Asuka she agrees with her, that she does deserve death, why should that stun Asuka? Instead of the answer being "Good. I hope you remember that."
 
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Susano said:
...but even then it would be Asuka's prerogative to still loathe her.
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Indeed; Ritsuko can be redeemed through the due and ideally fair process of law, but Asuka is under no obligation to forgive her, because forgiveness is not a thing that you can expect from people.

You can't command someone to forgive, or to accept, it must come of their own will, otherwise it tends to not be much more than empty words and hollow promises that will ultimately accomplish nothing, because they don't want to forgive before they feel that the object of their ire deserves it.

So to be honest; I think it's entirely fair and in-character that Asuka hates Ritsuko and refuses to stop hating her just because Misato says so. Because from what I understand; you aren't saying that Asuka should hate Ritsuko forever, you are stating that it is fully within her rights to hate Ritsuko forever, which is indeed entirely correct and perhaps even expected from Asuka given her usual temper.
 
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The way I see it if Rei is willing to forgive Ritsuko then the matter is dealt with, since Rei is the injured party. It doesn't absolve her of what she did, but Rei's willing to move past it, and Ritz is making an attempt to change.

Asuka has the right to be angry, given that Dr. Akagi drugged someone she cares about into passivity, which is magnified by the fact that Asuka's stepmother tried the same thing with her. At the same time, she's not the injured party and even if she despises the woman and isn't willing to forgive her that doesn't preclude Asuka from being the bigger person and showing some tact.

It might have been better for Misato to point out that while she might despise Commander Ikari for abandoning his son, sending them out on suicide missions, and incarcerating them just because he's a smug, petty manchild she still shows professionalism and tact because she's mature enough to realize that calling the old man out won't accomplish anything.
 
Doctor Squared said:
that doesn't preclude Asuka from being the bigger person and showing some tact.
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Sure, it doesn't preclude that. She is absolutely in the right to forgive. But she's also absolutely in the right not to forgive. It is her prerogative.

It might have been better for Misato to point out that while she might despise Commander Ikari for abandoning his son, sending them out on suicide missions, and incarcerating them just because he's a smug, petty manchild she still shows professionalism and tact because she's mature enough to realize that calling the old man out won't accomplish anything.
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The thing is, this wouldn't just be a different argument. This would be a completely different request. This would once again be the pragmagtism argument. And yes, it is reasonable to appeal to pragmatism. But to demand that Asuka understands and forgives, that is Misato overstepping her bounds.
 
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Susano said:
The thing is, this wouldn't just be a different argument. This would be a completely different argument. This would once again be the pragmagtism argument. And yes, it is reasonable to appeal to pragmatism. But to demand that Asuka understands and forgives, that is Misato overstepping her bounds.
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And from a pragmatic viewpoint, it's gonna accomplish jack shit, because forgiveness doesn't work like that.

Like, I am sadly unable to just declare that I've forgiven someone unless I actually feel like forgiving them, just like Asuka probably can't forgive Ritsuko just because she's ordered to.
 
ManusDomine said:
And from a pragmatic viewpoint, it's gonna accomplish jack shit, because forgiveness doesn't work like that.

Like, I am sadly unable to just declare that I've forgiven someone unless I actually feel like forgiving them, just like Asuka probably can't forgive Ritsuko just because she's ordered to.
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Stupid typos...

"it wouldn't be a different argument but a different argument"...

What I meant of course is that it would be a completely different demand. Not one to forgive, but just to work with Ritsuko and be professional around her, because hey, end of the world and all that. But you can work with someone for a higher good and still utterly loathe them.
 
Susano said:
They didn't say a word about necessity. Just that they wouldn't mourn much if Ritsuko died. Neither would I.
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I wouldn't mourn, but I certainly wouldn't be happy now that she has shown a willingness to change and an acceptance that what she did was wrong.

And it would also make Maya sad, which would be problematic because Maya is adorbs and shouldn't be sad. :sad:
 
Susano said:
I didn't mean that. It's just... if Ritsuko tells Asuka she agrees with her, that she does deserve death, why should that stun Asuka? Instead of the answer being "Good. I hope you remember that."
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Why shouldn't it stun someone who's basically two steps from suicidal? You know, finding out that they have that in common? And I still didn't say it would definitely be convincing, only that it's probably the most convincing thing she could say.
 
The Englanderish said:
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Right, morality discussion time, it seems.

First and foremost: What has Ritsuko Akagi done?

Answer: Torture; wilful mistreatment of a child; conspiracy to Domesday.

Reasons For Actions: Delusional envy and spite.

Is this remotely justifiable? No.

At this point, Akagi really doesn't deserve much beyond a very painful, ironic death. Her change of heart was primarily motivated by a need for Maya's approval as opposed to genuine redemption. By this point, she seems to have at least understood that she was in the wrong and is working towards an attempt at redemption.

However.

Until such a time as she manages to sufficiently rectify her fuck-ups, she frankly doesn't deserve to be treated with common decency - this is where the concept of mercy comes in.

The driving thing about mercy - and what makes it so powerful - is that the receiver of it does not deserve it. It is not something that is expected or mandatory, it is in and of itself above and beyond what can reasonably be expected of a person. Asuka is entirely within her rights to refuse showing it to Akagi. The same is true of forgiveness.

And Misato's attempts to coerce Asuka into it is an overstepping of her bounds. If Asuka decides to forgive or show mercy to Akagi, it must be by her choice and not a result of Misato trying to guilt-trip her. Otherwise it is a disrespect to both Asuka and the entire point of forgiveness and mercy by Misato.

If Akagi dies; nobody should be thought any less of for not giving any fucks - or even feeling satisfaction. Asuka's current attitude is entirely acceptable and reasonable. if she choses to go above and beyond, that makes her a better person, yes. But choosing not to does not diminish her in any way.


I fail to see the problem here.


All this aside, I wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and many more.
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Lot of good points here, @The Englanderish. Especially Misato overstepping herself, trying to push Asuka toward forgiveness.

Susano said:
The thing is, this wouldn't just be a different argument. This would be a completely different request. This would once again be the pragmagtism argument. And yes, it is reasonable to appeal to pragmatism. But to demand that Asuka understands and forgives, that is Misato overstepping her bounds.
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Lets step back and look at that pragmatic argument for a moment. The pure pragmatic approach would be "Asuka, we need Ritsuko if we want to save the world. Stop sowing hate and discontent. Treat her with all due professional courtesy. That is an order."

The result is an Asuka who hates Akagi, and resents Misato for ordering her to play nice.

From a commander's perspective, the unit will function better if there is harmony, or at least detante' among its members. A cabal in which Asuka has a smidgen of sympathy for Ritsuko will run more smoothly than one where Asuka is hostile.

So in that sense, what Misato did is not unreasonable, from a pragmatic standpoint. Perhaps not wise, or even smart, but there was a plan.

And now that I'm thinking about it, is unreasonable to demand that Asuka examine new information, and consider how it may or may not affect her views? It's still Asuka's right decide, "Nope, I still hate her just as much as I did five minutes ago."

This is pretty far outside my wheelhouse, but is there a case for a duty to examine new information?
 
Sure, yes, if Misato is stupid enough to phrase it as an order, than Asuka, maybe rightfully so, will resent her. But she could also present the reasons why cooperation is necessary to Asuka. At least try that route. And sure, a harmonious cabal would be better than a merely pragmaticaly cooperating one, but you can't order that. Such an order would go far beyond Misato's authority, and also simply unworkable: as Manus notes, you just can't order goodwill, that just doesn't work.

And also, I've pen nothing to indicate Asuka doesn't look at new data.
 
Misato didn't demand that Asuka understand or forgive. She said that Asuka might be sympathetic to Ritsukos situation and asked her to try give the benefit of the doubt. The only thing she demanded was that she read the notes about Rei's treatment after Arael. No demands about forgiveness.
 
Jakobstj said:
Misato didn't demand that Asuka understand or forgive. She said that Asuka might be sympathetic to Ritsukos situation and asked her to try give the benefit of the doubt. The only thing she demanded was that she read the notes about Rei's treatment after Arael. No demands about forgiveness.
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Misato was heavily pushing her in that direction, and the text made a point about Misato using her command voice. But okay - let's say Asuka does consider the issue and comes to the conclusion, still eminently justified, to further hate and sneer at Ritsuko. Would Misato accept that?
 
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Ok, Mod hat on for a moment. I don't like having to do this.
Susano, cool it a bit. Yes, you want Ritsuko to suffer for her sins. That's fine. But it's getting a bit much in here. Let's not start the baying for her blood quite so much. I don't want to start handing out threadbans or points, nor calling in one of my fellow Mods to take a less forgiving look at things. Remember the last time, that resulted in the banner. Keep in mind that no fewer than three other Mods and a few Councilors apparently read A&T, and can easily hammer down with full familiarity of the story.
Mod hat off.

She's aware she's done horrible things. And while Asuka is unlikely to ever be nice to Ritsuko, part of why Misato isn't slapping Asuka down much is Misato is aware it's partly just Asuka venting. Both of them know how important Rits is to things, and how much having her on side can help. Well, they think they know. They don't really know just how much stuff Ritsuko is sitting on yet. Misato's Command Voice is largely to punch through Asuka's anger, and get her to listen when Misato shows her the notes which make it clear Ritsuko is actively helping Rei conceal things from Commander Ikari, and, not to put too fine a point on it, putting herself in lethal peril from now until things stop in order to do so.

Ritsuko isn't doing this for Maya's approval. Maya considering her a good, repentant person is an indicator, not a cause. She's doing this because she can no longer blind herself to her own sins by 'Gendo needs me and will love me for this'. She turned away because she was finally forced to face the fact that she knew she was doing evil, and that her 'cause of love' was false. That Maya is loving her is showing her the contrast, and part of why she's so dedicated to thwarting Third Impact now. Rei's forgiveness is actually something of a knife-wound: Ritsuko knows Rei has no need or pressure to forgive her, but does so anyway. And that stabs.

Arg. Tired. Going to bed.

Advisory: Monitoring this argument is actively distracting me from writing the update.

Preview? Well, hopefully this will keep you all from baying for Ritsuko's blood for a day.

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Asuka tried not to smile. It wasn't really necessary that Rei help stabilize her legs as she stood on the chair, but she was enjoying it too much to tell Rei to stop.

"And this is a tradition?" Rei asked, her even voice belied by the pink to her cheeks.

"Yup!" Asuka carefully tapped at the nail one more time. She lowered the hammer and admired the nicely thick bunch of mistletoe. "Two people end up standing under the mistletoe at a Christmas party, they have to kiss. That's the rule." She moved her leg enough to alert Rei she was going to move, then hopped down off the chair.

Rei looked at her, cheeks still pink. "Like now?"

Asuka blinked at her, then looked up. They were directly under the sprig of berries. "Um... oh boy."

+++
 
Strypgia said:
Asuka tried not to smile. It wasn't really necessary that Rei help stabilize her legs as she stood on the chair, but she was enjoying it too much to tell Rei to stop.

"And this is a tradition?" Rei asked, her even voice belied by the pink to her cheeks.

"Yup!" Asuka carefully tapped at the nail one more time. She lowered the hammer and admired the nicely thick bunch of mistletoe. "Two people end up standing under the mistletoe at a Christmas party, they have to kiss. That's the rule." She moved her leg enough to alert Rei she was going to move, then hopped down off the chair.

Rei looked at her, cheeks still pink. "Like now?"

Asuka blinked at her, then looked up. They were directly under the sprig of berries. "Um... oh boy."
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Ah, mistletoe shenanigans. I wonder how many different people will end up underneath it by accident :V.
 
Strypgia said:
Ritsuko isn't doing this for Maya's approval.
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Hmm, from a pure critique standpoint, you unfotunately seem to have somewhat fumbled in portraying this. Something you could maybe work on in rewrites/future chapters?

Strypgia said:
Rei's forgiveness is actually something of a knife-wound: Ritsuko knows Rei has no need or pressure to forgive her, but does so anyway. And that stabs.
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And this is also why Rei is arguably the morally most good person in the fic.

Strypgia said:
Rei looked at her, cheeks still pink. "Like now?"

Asuka blinked at her, then looked up. They were directly under the sprig of berries. "Um... oh boy."
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What, you didn't have your ration already? :V
 
Well...I wasn't the cause of thread problems for once...this is a very strange sensation to me...

I need to keep it up.

I had a feeling mistletoe would come into the "Christmas special" at some point. Such WAFFY things are inevitable, it is the will of Lord Strypgia after all.
 
"You're a coward" is not civil, and doubly so after a warning to stop.
Strypgia said:
Susano, cool it a bit. Yes, you want Ritsuko to suffer for her sins. That's fine.
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Just as a note, that wasn't even about that. Ritsuko, well, whatever can happen to her. This was about Asuka being free to hate her. And I must say, the fact that apparently Misato were to slap her down if she weren't just venting doesn't speak well of Misato, and that she still kinda does even though she knows Asuka is just venting is kinda petty.

Lone Courier 6 said:
Oh thank the deity of your personal preference, I was getting tired of Susano's bloodlust for ritsuko's head.
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You're a bit of a coward, aren't you?

Aaanyway...


Oh boy indeed. Them's the arbitrary traditional rules, Asuka. The mutual blushing is just too cute. Now, where's Shinji... ;)

Hm. Too bad Misato won't be there to randomly literally push people under the mistletoe. Asuka and Rei, Rei and Shinji, Rei and Kaworu, Kaworu and Shinji, Asuka and Shinji...
 
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