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A world of 5 Superpowers (And Italy)

Cloak&Dagger

Cloak&Dagger

Definitely Insane
In a slightly different WW2 where the US doesn't trade with Russia or Britain, and the Japanese are smart enough to not attack the US, the post war situation changes greatly.

Unable to stay supplied with German U-Boats surrounding it, and with no hope of victory, Britain is allowed to drop out of the war with the Germans, freeing up resources for the German forces to assault the USSR. Now undersupplied, the Soviet forces fail to stop the Germans before they take Moscow, among other cities farther East.

While this isn't the end of the USSR, the long, protracted war eventually ends when both the Nazis and Soviets bleed themselves white, and declare a truce, with the Eastern Block nations firmly in Nazi hands.

In the East, Japan has managed to secure essentially all the waterfront it wanted in Asia, though fighting still continues inland, Japanese control is solid.

Humiliated by their defeat, and desperate to stay relevant against the large, hostile powers nearby, the UK consolidates power in the areas it has left after being devastated by Italian and Japanese conquests, and solidifies the status of the Commonwealth as a united group.

So, my question is, what does the post-war world look like with Nazi Germany, the USSR, Imperial Japan, the USA, and the Commonwealth as the main powers? (And Fascist Italy but who cares about them)
 
You mean USA and everyone else. They just haven't fought a massive, expensive war, have only somewhat less industrial capacity than the other four combined, and are nigh impossible to effectively attack.
 
CV12Hornet said:
You mean USA and everyone else. They just haven't fought a massive, expensive war, have only somewhat less industrial capacity than the other four combined, and are nigh impossible to effectively attack.
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Yes, the US will have an advantage for quite some time, but what it will do with that remains to be seen, what with the massive isolationism. By the time it gets around to using that power, the gap won't be nearly so huge.
 
Well, once everyone is in possession of nuclear weapons by, I would say 1955, any hope of reversing this flies out of the window. What happens to Africa though? Does Britain let Nazi Europe continue to rule over its French colonies and such?

Also, I imagine that international trade never opens up into full freedom without tariffs and such.

Oh and with the Nazi "victory", they won't have any problems justifying the continuation of their regime for decades. In fact, if they can last into the 90s while still being Nazi Europa, and HIV/AIDS slams America in a similar fashion, then they will just use news footage from America as propaganda, in a "See? I fucking told you so." manner, not to mention Nazi propaganda about the factual, (but justified), Jewish domination of Hollywood. The fact that Jews basically built it themselves ground up is almost irrelevant for propaganda.

Of course, in this world, it won't be so easy to trash White Power movements, since the smartass but true and relevant "The Nazis lost, dipshit", will not only be non-present, but demonstrably untrue. They did apparently conquer almost all of continental Europe, and are holding it longer than Napoleon did. And this has knock on effects. Such as the American Nazi Party remaining a thing. A vile thing, but there nonetheless. After 50 years, Northern Europe will be so thoroughly indoctrinated and so up its own ass with "Muh Aryan Supremacy", that it might as well be North Korea: Blonde Edition. Possibly minus all the starvation. Possibly.

Neither Nazi Europe nor the USSR will collapse for economic reasons, they both have each other to justify their existence and exorbitant expenditure on their militaries. Both of which will have a fairly large number of submarines, and by 1980, be building fleets of nuclear submarines.

Its sad really, because if America liberalizes, if its slower, on the same path, and has anywhere near the same issues like the Race Riots, and the HIV epidemic, it will just feed the Nazi Propaganda machine, hell, they might let their citizens go on tourist vacations and emphasize the terriblest locations and make it seem like thats all of America. Its kind of like what South Africa could have done to keep justifying itself to its White citizens if they had held on another decade. Just point to Zimbabwe and say "See? Look at that shit." Meanwhile, the IRL SA government is trying to take steps to ensure the safety of White farmers, because they did in fact look at Zimbabwe, and decided that was too high a price for any excessive revenge.

Sad news for Europe is both the Jews are gone, the Polish are gone, the Gypsies are gone, as are a few others. And the people who did raise you from cradle to grave saying it was a good thing, and your parents remember Hitler rising to power, and taking Germany from a broken beat down nation to a colossus of Europe, surpassing Napoleon. So it will be 80 years if not more before any cracks begin to show, and possibly 150 years before they ever begin to reject racism on a national level, and depending on how much trouble makes it to the news in the US, it might be even longer, since its incredibly easy to just ignore the poverty and such and just go "Lolblacks, haha stupid Americans" and roll footage. And then let your people go visit America with instructions to the worst bits.

Meanwhile, America just keeps on being wealthy and powerful, and Japan consolidates its holdings and just slaughters East Asia until it submits. Japan was militarily defeated and had their ideology torn down and still didn't reject racism wholly. In fact, its possible that neither Japan nor Nazi Germany will ever turn their backs once they begin the cycle of perpetual indoctrination, with the Japanese in the lead.

Unless Britain can completely hold onto to its empire, I don't Global Superpowers are going to be a thing. Just massive and secured regional powers across the globe.
 
Huh, I don't think America counts as a Super Power here. Didn't they pay for the expansion of US War industry with the sales they did? In this timeline their ability to wage war is vastly reduced.
 
Um no? We paid for our own shit, and most of the industry was just slack left from the Great Depression. Economically, the USA was only just finishing its warmup exercises. We hadn't yet hit the Overheating stage by far.
 
Ragnar said:
Huh, I don't think America counts as a Super Power here. Didn't they pay for the expansion of US War industry with the sales they did? In this timeline their ability to wage war is vastly reduced.
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Military might alone does not make a superpower. It's the cash, and the ability to make a military if you so desire.

Though you're right that the US will probably have a much smaller military, because there's no one to fight since overseas areas are not a part of it's defense plans.

There will be even more shittons of nukes than OTL though.

Vashon said:
Unless Britain can completely hold onto to its empire, I don't Global Superpowers are going to be a thing. Just massive and secured regional powers across the globe.
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You don't think any of the power blocks will rival the US in GDP?

Vashon said:
Well, once everyone is in possession of nuclear weapons by, I would say 1955, any hope of reversing this flies out of the window. What happens to Africa though? Does Britain let Nazi Europe continue to rule over its French colonies and such?
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That's a good question. Presumably UK was forced to relinquish everything that was taken from them as part of the peace deal, but what goes to the Germans and what goes to the Italians, who knows.
 
Japan will have a long way to go before they can rival the US in GDP, and Nazi Europa will similarly need some time both to repair and rebuild and simply to work out some kinks.

Now, the US might have a smaller Army, but its Navy will be monstrous. Facing down a unified Europe and Japan, it won't shirk its navy, and will end up being even more of a Super Britain than OTL. If the British Empire remains an extant thing and united, then both the British and the US can and will maintain a dominating lead in surface combatants. While the Nazis and Soviets will go for fleets of Subs, and post WWII is when submarines really became lethal fleet participants instead of really good raiders. The Japanese will probably still try to maintain a powerful surface fleet. And the Japanese will be sinking a shit load of time and effort into making East Asia worth a damn, all the while slaughtering millions and millions until the resistance stops. The East Asian economy in general just isn't going to have the super star rise we saw until the Japanese develop them as more than resource extraction.

The Nazis on the other hand, were more than willing to accept Western Europe, parts of Southern Europe, and even small bits of Eastern Europe as being developed, and so will have a fair advantage. And if they get North Africa, at the least, then in the long term, they have some oil security beyond trade.

Basically, Japanese remain the weakest economically and militarily, and in fact remain imminently crushable by the US until they get some nukes. Like, that's the thing. Its vaguely possible for a Nazi Europe to happen, but a Japan that's owns its half of the Pacific and such only occurs with the US's consent, one way or another. Nukes are basically irrelevant to that equation.

So the US, then Britain, then Nazis and Soviets, then further down the line, the Japanese. The British Empire might be ahead of the US if you count India, but frankly, it would be better for countering the Japanese to let India be its own sovereign nation in reality and let them develop on their own.
 
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Vashon said:
The British Empire might be ahead of the US if you count India, but frankly, it would be better for countering the Japanese to let India be its own sovereign nation in reality and let them develop on their own.
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Hmm, would India in this timeline be developed like OTL post-war Japan or modern China? That would actually put Britain ahead of the US.
 
I am doubtful Nazi Germany could occupy all of Europe for any real extent of time. The real Soviet Union had difficulty enough propping up puppet governments in just Eastern Europe, even with it's deeper supply of human and material resources. It'd be a logistical nightmare.
 
fng9821 said:
I am doubtful Nazi Germany could occupy all of Europe for any real extent of time. The real Soviet Union had difficulty enough propping up puppet governments in just Eastern Europe, even with it's deeper supply of human and material resources. It'd be a logistical nightmare.
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Hah. Lolno. They conquered it and will keep it, likely for a century, long enough to culturally indoctrinate the bits they heartily desire, and subsume those they don't. What with the eventual security nukes provide. Hell, come the 21st century, and the people who even remember a Europe before National Socialist domination will be dying out, with those who remember hearing their parents tales beginning their die off, and being replaced by the baby boomer/late boomer and 70s/80s/90s kids.

The exclusively military occupation is barely an issue, its the mild administrative difficulties of absorbing the areas directly. And again, the Nazi societal promise is far different from the USSR's societal promise. The USSR promised a better life than capitalism, it failed to deliver, while the Nazi promise was closer to the North Korean promise. And that promise can apparently stand the test of time and tribulation.
 
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