How should he even try to argue here?

Archon: "The death of sentient beings is always a tragedy, since it takes even the faintest chance at redemption from them."
Vee: "He kills children to feed them to their parents."
Archon: "As I was saying: faintest chance."

All other things being equal he is obviously correct.

Things are not equal, the opportunity cost of resources to redeem such people will result in more suffering elsewhere.

When we've made suffering a great exception to the rule then they can have their indulgent pet projects but right now he's trying to throw a grand festival in the middle of a famine.
 
Tyrosh Tree, then Dawn Fruit Tree, then everything else. The sooner we grow the Dawn Fruit Tree the sooner we get thousands of that Dawn Fruit every month. We're not skipping over this.
I disagree here.

I mean, Dawn Fruit Tree is awesome, no doubts about that.
But we don't really have any food problems, and our next wave of conquest doesn't start for a few months, so our legions will have these fruits ready by our next move, one way or another.

But Philosopher's?
We can better awake people to magic with it.
We can make a proper R&D division with it.
We get scholars visiting SD even more.
SD will get great influx of knowledge and quality in works of local craftsmen with it.
Scholarum students will get better results with it.
We can plan for super-projects with it (+20 to rolls is nothing to joke at, especially as that before any further buffs).

I mean, both of these trees give us nothing that we need desperately right this very moment.
But I think that Philosopher's tree is more important to have in case we don't get to grow a lot of trees with what few scattered sacrifices we gathered here.
 
Last edited:
The Bonestorms are non-sentient, and thus worthless to us for sacrificial purposes, correct? I sure don't want to trade loot for them.

I don't want the Red Priests involved with the invasion in any way at all. If they wanted Tyrosh free, they should have engineered such an outcome centuries ago. They can continue to huddle in their temple. I hope they make an issue of us commanding them to stay put.

I don't know which group to help. What do ya'll think?

[X] Plan Thanks, but no thanks.
-[X] Tell Amrelath to destroy the Bonestorms.
-[X] Speak to the Red Priests
--[X] Thank the priests for offering to help, but order them to keep their forces contained in their temple. We have kept the city from descending into an orgy of chaos and death through meticulous planning and well established lines of communication. The Fiery Hand would not be briefed on our plans, nor have access to our methods of communication, and we do not wish for them to be set upon by any of our forces who might mistake them for enemies. They can rest assured that the institution of slavery will be abolished in Tyrosh within hours.
-[X] Go help one of the other groups after speaking to the Red Priests.
--[X] Group 2 (Garin, Wyla, Maelor, Vee, Spyglass Archon)
 
Last edited:
I disagree here.

I mean, Dawn Fruit Tree is awesome, no doubts about that.
But we don't really have any food problems, and our next wave of conquest doesn't start for a few months, so our legions will have these fruits ready by our next move, one way or another.

But Philosopher's?
We can better awake people to magic with it.
We can make a proper R&D division with it.
We get scholars visiting SD even more.
SD will get great influx of knowledge and quality in works of local craftsmen with it.
Scholarum students will get better results with it.
We can plan for super-projects with it (+20 to rolls is nothing to joke at, especially as that before any further buffs).

I mean, both of these trees give us nothing that we need desperately right this very moment.
But I think that Philosopher's tree is more important to have in case we don't get to grow a lot of trees with what few scattered sacrifices we gathered here.
:???:

It's not about "food problems", it never was. It's a vital resource for the legions. It lessens exhaustion and outright gets rid of all forms of fatigue. This gives us the ability to force march them anywhere. It gives saves against Necromancy effects. You know who else would benefit given what they fight? The Night's Watch.
Elysium Fruit primary effect discovered: Cures Fatigue/Lessens Exhaustion to Fatigue and grants +2 sacred bonus to saves vs. Necromancy spells for one hour
The sooner we grow this tree the sooner it is pumping out thousands of this fruit per month. The sooner we can get started on a study action to turn it into cider to sell it in the Opaline Vault. You say that there's no benefit to growing this tree immediately, but that's incorrect. It requires a one-month period of growth before it actually starts bearing fruit. The earlier we do this the better, hands down.

We'll grow your Philosopher's Tree soon enough. Sothoryos is in two months, we can get those spiders en mass.

EDIT: I'm still super confused about how the Dawn Fruit was perceived as simple food. It's a force-march ration that never rots, we sure as hell aren't handing it out to the homeless and hungry when we could give them regular food instead.
 
Last edited:
[] Ask him to destroy the undead (3 Bonestorms)
-[] What do you offer in exchange (Can include everything he looted off the fiends if you wish)

His control is capital T- Temporary, he can't maintain control for anywhere approaching the 24 hours he would need to keep them even if he used his Control ability solely to do so. Which I still wouldn't trust.

We will not be paying him to do something 15 minutes earlier than he would have had to anyway.
 
The Bonestorms are non-sentient, and thus worthless to us for sacrificial purposes, correct? I sure don't want to trade loot for them.
I'm pretty sure we can sacrifice them just as well.
They're magic.
Old Gods take magic just as well if it isn't sentient.

That aside,
[X] Goldfish
 
Last edited:
@Goldfish, they're nonsentient but they also have magical abilities which means they're worthwhile as sacrifices. We could briefly teleport to SD and back to quickly sacrifice them and pay Amrelath with gold for them. That said, I'm just not going to fight for this. I'm burned out today.
 
Before voting for not taking the reds help, please consider the reaction of most people when they run into the legion, they try to fight, hide or plea for their families, a few friendly faces in the mass of black and red steel would really change the initial reaction of the populace.
Think about it this way, we gain all the glory if we do this ourselves, about 7 glory points lets say, but with their help even if we only get 80% percent the glory thats still a neat gain if we get 10 Glory points instead. Lets bring them to the table, ask what they can offer and how they can better help our forces, we dont need the muscle, we need the PR and local knowledge.
 
@Goldfish, they're nonsentient but they also have magical abilities which means they're worthwhile as sacrifices. We could briefly teleport to SD and back to quickly sacrifice them and pay Amrelath with gold for them. That said, I'm just not going to fight for this. I'm burned out today.


I thought the rule was 0 value for non-sentient, a % modifier on that won't make a difference.

Regardless he has control of them for maximum 15 minutes and some time has already passed, they are not available for sacrifice and we should certainly not pay him for the convenience of 10 minutes.
 
I thought the rule was 0 value for non-sentient, a % modifier on that won't make a difference.

Regardless he has control of them for maximum 15 minutes and some time has already passed, they are not available for sacrifice and we should certainly not pay him for the convenience of 10 minutes.
It's the general rule, but I asked DP about it a while ago and he said there's going to be some value if there's magic involved. Hippogriffs are nonsentient, for example, but they're magical beasts so they're valid as sacrifices. That increases further when you see nonsentient things that are not only magic but have magical abilities. The boneswarms have three of those:
Gather Bones (Su)
By spending a full-round action in the same square as a deadcreature, a bonestorm can shred the flesh from the corpse and absorb the bones into its swarm. The absorption grants the bonestorm healing (or temporary hit points if it is unwounded). The amount of healing depends on the size of the body absorbed. A Small creature grants 2 points of healing. A Medium grants 5 points, Large grants 10 points, and Huge grants 20 point. A bonestorm gains no benefit from collecting the skeletons of creatures smaller than Small or larger than Huge.

Unholy Winds (Su)
A bonestorm is surrounded by fierce netherwinds, the howls and raging essences of souls forever trapped within a whirlwind of death. As such, the area within 10 feet of a bonestorm is affected by winds of windstorm force. Creatures that enter this area must make a DC 18 Fortitude save or be affected by the high winds as dictated by their size: Small or smaller creatures are blown away, Medium creatures are knocked down, Large creatures are checked, and larger creatures are unaffected. In addition, these winds are responsible for a bonestorm's movement and protect it from the damage and dispersal diminutive swarms typically face when affected by powerful winds.

Wrath (Su)
A bonestorm cuts apart creatures occupying the same space as it, not just with splintered bones and bludgeoning skulls, but with the unholy energies of the damned souls that make up the undead whirlwind. Thus, 3d6 points of the damage dealt by a bone swarm is physical, and 3d6 points are unholy damage, resulting directly from unholy power.
 
Last edited:
@Duesal Plan updated to keep the Bonestorms. If we can sacrifice them, that's great.

For sure we have a captured Thanadaemon and the leader of the four we just whooped.

With a base of 15 HD, the Thanadaemon is worth 20.25 HD since it's a True Outsider.

The spellcaster has, at an absolute minimum, 13 HD due to his ability to cast a Reached Greater Plane Shift (presumably using Divine Metamagic), a 7th level Cleric spell. That's another 16.25 HD.

Then there are the three Bonestorms, each of which has 16 HD. That's another 48 HD total. Even if penalized by %50, we'd be left with 24 HD.

So in total, that fight was worth at least 60.5 HD, but maybe as much as 84.5 HD. And that's only if the spellcaster wasn't higher level, or if the Thanadaemon didn't have any boosted HD.
 
Last edited:
@Duesal Plan updated to keep the Bonestorms. If we can sacrifice them, that's great.

For sure we have a captured Thanadaemon and the leader of the four we just whooped.

With a base of 15 HD, the Thanadaemon is worth 20.25 HD since it's a True Outsider.

The spellcaster has, at an absolute minimum, 13 HD due to his ability to cast Greater Plane Shift (presumably using Divine Metamagic), a 7th level Cleric spell. That's another 16.25 HD.

Then there are the three Bonestorms, each of which has 16 HD. That's another 48 HD total. Even if penalized by %50, we'd be left with 24 HD.

So in total, that fight was worth at least 60.5 HD, but maybe as much as 84.5 HD.
@Goldfish, the thing is that the Bonestorms are only under control for a limited amount of time as per Amrelath's Control Undead. If we want them sacrificed we need to do this quickly, because not only are these things undead, they're also a swarm. The worst of both worlds.

We can't grow a Heart Tree outright since the ritual takes 80 minutes which is way over the time limit to keep them under control. We can't subdue them. So the next best thing is just to sacrifice them and hope Bloodraven takes pity and gives us something good. The actual sacrifice shouldn't be difficult since it's pretty much just killing them in the godswood, but we have to do it fast.
It doesn't age/rot, and fermenting is kind of tied to that concept.
We can have cider making experts do this study action for us souped up with Divine Insight. They'll figure it out eventually.
 
It's the general rule, but I asked DP about it a while ago and he said there's going to be some value if there's magic involved. Hippogriffs are nonsentient, for example, but they're magical beasts so they're valid as sacrifices. That increases further when you see nonsentient things that are not only magic but have magical abilities. The boneswarms have three of those:

Should probably update the ritual then but the below are the applicable modifiers and so we're running a 10% defecit, paying handsomely for it and the ritual still needs to be done within the 10 remaining minutes of control he has which is impossible.

Special: The value of the sacrifice is modified by the following factors:
  • Low Intelligence (Int 3 to 6): -50%
  • Undead: +40%

Do not pay Amrelath for temporary minions.

He literally incapable of keeping them so he needs no reimbursement.
 
Damn. It. All.
This whole debacle barely covers making a Heart Tree for Tyrosh.
Fffffffffuuuuuuuuu-
 
@Goldfish, the thing is that the Bonestorms are only under control for a limited amount of time as per Amrelath's Control Undead. If we want them sacrificed we need to do this quickly, because not only are these things undead, they're also a swarm. The worst of both worlds.

We can't grow a Heart Tree outright since the ritual takes 80 minutes which is way over the time limit to keep them under control. We can't subdue them. So the next best thing is just to sacrifice them and hope Bloodraven takes pity and gives us something good. The actual sacrifice shouldn't be difficult since it's pretty much just killing them in the godswood, but we have to do it fast.

If we trap them in a stone box, we can keep them contained until Amrelath's Control Undead SLA refreshes.
 
Back
Top