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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Here is a big thing - can someone link the hedge mage class spell list to me by any chance please? I would very much like to argue that predigistination is more useful than light.

Also, we can totally lean on Velen to make light thingys as an award for mages after their first semester. 'cuz it's free, and useful, and he can make one every 6 seconds, and we're not so much as trying to profit from him as help our magelings, which is totally nicer than just selling the permanently glowing rocks in Braavos.

Edit: @TalonofAnathrax with rising awareness of magic, the risk/reward of charm spells are now heavily skewed compared to when Viserys set out. What about Mage Armour or Grease?

Also, long term "teaching mind control! Aghhh! Evilllll" but there are probably worse rumours about. So, eh.

Then again, people use the tools they have. Do we really want our magelings being ok with using mind alteration on people at need? 'Cuz meeting with those people afterwards can feel awkward.

Third Edit: If the maglings could do without verbal or somatic components, then charm would be more useful to them, as it is, I'm not a fan at all :/
 
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Idea: what if Scholarum Sorcerer gave 4+Int skill ranks per level? Would that be unbalanced?
That way they could get an extra Knowledge skill (The Planes) and Intimidate (class skill due to Draconic Heritage, and all-around a good social skills to have. Especially when their only other choice is Bluff).

Goldfish said:
Nice build.

Why not retrain Precocious Apprentice into Expanded Arcana to learn Shield and another 1st level spell, rather than Alter Self? Then learn Alter Self, Glitterdust, or Invisibility at 5th level. We'll have multiple Sorcerers with this build, so some slight variation between them in their spell selections wouldn't be amiss.
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Alter Self is far better than Shield and say, True Strike, because not only is it a fantastic AC boost, but is also allows various movement modes in a pinch and is a good disguise spell. It also lasts for a good while. It really increases their versatility.

I changed Glitterdust to Glitterdust or Invisibility. You're right, Invisibility could be useful, especially if they team up with someone who's good at sneaking around. Glitterdust is like a group See Invisibility combined with a combat debuff though.
Edit: Protection from Arrows, maybe? Good defensive buffs that lasts for hours. Quite decent for a ranged combatant like them.

Duesal said:
@TalonofAnathrax, can you pick a flaw different from Murky Eyed? I don't like that extra miss chance.
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Done. They have -1 AC now.

BeepSmile said:
@TalonofAnathrax with rising awareness of magic, the risk/reward of charm spells are now heavily skewed compared to when Viserys set out. What about Mage Armour or Grease?
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I too think that Prestigiditation > Light.
Charm Person is risky, especially seeing as they have no social skills. On the other hand it's basically a level 1 Save or Die spell.
Hmm... If anyone else chips in I might replace it with something else.
 
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BeepSmile said:
Here is a big thing - can someone link the hedge mage class spell list to me by any chance please? I would very much like to argue that predigistination is more useful than light.

Also, we can totally lean on Velen to make light thingys as an award for mages after their first semester. 'cuz it's free, and useful, and he can make one every 6 seconds, and we're not so much as trying to profit from him as help our magelings, which is totally nicer than just selling the permanently glowing rocks in Braavos.

Edit: @TalonofAnathrax with rising awareness of magic, the risk/reward of charm spells are now heavily skewed compared to when Viserys set out. What about Mage Armour or Grease?

Also, long term "teaching mind control! Aghhh! Evilllll" but there are probably worse rumours about. So, eh.

Then again, people use the tools they have. Do we really want out magelings being ok with using mind alteration on people at need? 'Cuz meeting with those people afterwards can feel awkward.
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I agree about Charm, @TalonofAnathrax.

What about Windy Escape or Burning Disarm. Or maybe Nerveskitter or Keep Watch?
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Idea: what if Scholarum Sorcerer gave 4+Int skill ranks per level? Would that be unbalanced?
That way they could get an extra Knowledge skill (The Planes) and Intimidate (class skill due to Draconic Heritage, and all-around a good social skills to have. Especially when their only other choice is Bluff).


Alter Self is far better than Shield and say, True Strike, because not only is it a fantastic AC boost, but is also allows various movement modes in a pinch and is a good disguise spell. It also lasts for a good while. It really increases their versatility.

I changed Glitterdust to Glitterdust or Invisibility. You're right, Invisibility could be useful, especially if they team up with someone who's good at sneaking around. Glitterdust is like a group See Invisibility combined with a combat debuff though.
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I am a skill point junkie ;), Skill Points for the Point Throne! Other thingy for the Thingy God!

Bolded bit is explicitly incorrect. Alter Self :: d20srd.org allows only variations of the caster's base form within the same type, a human will only be able to change into human. It was Viserys' and Dany's bloodline that allows dragon forms, so unless there is a "human" sub-group that has alternate movement forms

Quote:
"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."

Maybe going to large will let someone move faster or small to genter a crawlspace...
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Oooh, Nerveskitter!
If these guys win Initiative they will probably murder any single target of around their level (touch attack at +1 with gold range dealing 5d6 damage).
Unless @DragonParadox rules that we can teach them Windy Escape - it may be a Pathfinder Spell but it seems decent and absolutely not broken.
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I like Windy Escape, too.

Burning Disarm is nice, too, though that might be my vicious streak showing. Imagine using it on a knight's helm? Or their cod piece? :o
 
BeepSmile said:
I am a skill point junkie ;), Skill Points for the Point Throne! Other thingy for the Thingy God!

Bolded bit is explicitly incorrect. Alter Self :: d20srd.org allows only variations of the caster's base form within the same type, a human will only be able to change into human. It was Viserys' and Dany's bloodline that allows dragon forms, so unless there is a "human" sub-group that has alternate movement forms

Quote:
"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."

Maybe going to large will let someone move faster or small to genter a crawlspace...
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Feel free to Google "3.5 Alter Self overpowered" or something. There are indeed humanoid forms with gills, wings or huge natural armour bonuses.
Thankfully a Sorcerer with Knowledge(arcana) should be able to know that they exist and turn into them.
 
Goldfish said:
Yes, but a burning cod piece focuses the mind in a uniquely urgent fashion. It might also involve a lot of running and and screaming.
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I suppose my stance is based on: "Does a codpiece allow for a reflex save to remove?" ;)

TalonofAnathrax said:
Feel free to Google "3.5 Alter Self overpowered" or something. There are indeed humanoid forms with gills, wings or huge natural armour bonuses.
Thankfully a Sorcerer with Knowledge(arcana) should be able to know that they exist and turn into them.
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Have not checked the google suggestion (yet), but if you say that there are humanoid types with these advantages, then I am 100% for Alter Form, all objections to that spell withdrawn.

I was just worried you were expecting something like our Pseudo-Dragon forms being available to non-PCs
 
Diomedon said:
The Corporal gets to attack as well with his polearm, so doing a similar thing would probably be good, but I really need to go to bed.
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Corporal should have +1 Knowledge (War), as that is already counting the ability mods, and the officers should lose Manager to max Soldier.
Diomedon said:
Atk: Thinblade +6, +2 (Magic Army, only effective plus two due to mwk), +2 (due to Flanking via Officer Granted Gang-Up feat), +1 (Motivate Attack), +1 (Flagbearer morale bonus) = +12 Atk, (1d8+3/19-20 x2) +2 (Magic Army), +1 (Master of Tactics), +1d6 (Precise Strike) = 1d8+6/19-20 x2 +1d6 damage
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Where did you get that Flagbearer bonus? Isn't motivate attack also morale? It wouldn't stack.

Master of Tactics is +3, not +1. The normal damage in formation is 1d8+6, with Magic Army it's 1d8+9.

Remember, they are hitting against flatfooted AC.
DragonParadox said:
Where Ser Richatd is you can but guess as the sight had finally left your gaze and he is shrouded not only in glamor, but in unnatural silence to hide the creak of his armor.
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Does Silence + Invisibikity stop our Blindsense?
TalonofAnathrax said:
no Draconic Power (so -1 CL with fire spells).
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All spells, Draconic Power is universal. It gives +1 DC with Fire spells on top of a blanket +1 CL.
TalonofAnathrax said:
Skills: Max Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
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Not keen on UMD, would rather get Alchemy and maybe Sense Motive. The odd point in (The Planes) too.
 
Artemis1992 said:
We have already seen Winged Elves IC.

Not yet any Lizardmen for NA or anything Amphibic, but I'm sure that's just a matter of time.
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Can even just do a knowledge check on "fucked up shit dragons and Valerians turned people into" to see if Viserys knows of things that have these forms of transportation that still count as 'humanoid'

Dany saw winged elves, not Viserys, but I think the description was enough to count as "knowing about them". That said, I expect them to count as Elves, and therefore not be a thing for Alter Self.
 
BeepSmile said:
I suppose my stance is based on: "Does a codpiece allow for a reflex save to remove?" ;)
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I doubt they have instant quick releases built in for emergency crotch burns. And even if they do, half of 5d4 points of fire damage to your twig and berries should still be a fight ender in most circumstances.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
All spells, Draconic Power is universal. It gives +1 DC with Fire spells on top of a blanket +1 CL.
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Good to know. Editing the sheet then.

Not keen on UMD, would rather get Alchemy and maybe Sense Motive. The odd point in (The Planes) too.
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I'll be giving them 4+Int skill points per level, and Knowledge (the planes) maxed.
UMD is honestly a great skill, and these guys have good Charisma. They can't quite use level 9 spell scrolls or anything, but basic healing shouldn't be too hard for them.
And more importantly, it gives them something to do outside of combat! They can identify magic items!
It's also thematic: every Dragon-themed class seems to have it. Mastery of magic, indeed.

Sense Motive is not a class skill. You sure you want that?
They have Intimidate and Bluff as class skills though. Should I take one of these, or Craft (Alchemy)?
Alchemy goes very well with Launch Item. Thunderstones and Alchemist's Fire suddenly get a great range and always hit. But having a social skill could be good, and Alchemy required money and a lab...
I'm undecided here. Thoughts people?
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
UMD is honestly a great skill, and these guys have good Charisma. They can't quite use level 9 spell scrolls or anything, but basic healing shouldn't be too hard for them.
And more importantly, it gives them something to do outside of combat! They can identify magic items!
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Even for item identification, our Arcane Resonance ritual has a higher DC for UMD than the DC for simple knowledge checks.
DragonParadox said:
Skill Checks: Appropriate Knowlege Skill (DC 18) or Use Magic Device (DC 23) 3 success
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They're better off just stockpiling Knowledge (Arcana).
 
Duesal said:
Even for item identification, our Arcane Resonance ritual has a higher DC for UMD than the DC for simple knowledge checks.

They're better off just stockpiling Knowledge (Arcana).
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Good point. And their ability to increase Aid Another bonuses for Knowledge (Arcana) certainly will help.

Okay, changes to the sheet have been made!
UMD has been dropped. They now have Knowledge (the planes) and Craft (Alchemy) maxed, and half ranks in Bluff and Intimidate (their good Cha should help here). They now no longer have healing scrolls, and instead have a few tanglefoot bags and a Thunderstone. They can use Launch Item to get them to hit at a pretty good range without an attack roll, and then they can burn the hapless target to death once it's entangled.
 
@DragonParadox here are quick substitution levels for the Scholarum Sorcerer - Sorcerers trained in the Scholarum according to the teachings of the Red Dragon Vyserys and with access to his arcane lore and organisation.
After it, you will find a build and advancement for them in the same format as all the ones already on the front page. These Sorcerers will be quite decent blasters, have some defences (Mage Armor, Alter Self, Dispel Magic) and have Craft (Alchemy)!
What do you think? Useable?

Scholarum Sorcerer:
A Sorcerer may take substitution levels in Scholarum Sorcerer whenever they have been spending a significant amount of time studying in the Scholarum and are getting a Sorcerer level from level 1 to level 6. It functions as a normal sorcerer, but with the following exceptions.
All levels: 4+Int mod skill points per level.

Level 1: No Familiar. Instead, take Awakened Blood: Draconic Heritage (red) as a bonus feat, +1CL for fire spells and -2 for Cold spells.
Cooperative Study (Ex): A Scholarum Sorcerer with this ability has learned that the sharing of knowledge and research with his fellow sorcerers is crucial to the mastery of wild magic. The ability increases the bonus provided by any Aid Another actions made to help with the Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, or Use Magic Device skills. The total bonus is equal to his number of Scholarum Sorcerer substitution levels +2. Up to three additional sorcerers with this ability may aid a single character, each making their own Aid Another check, but the total bonus gained by the recipient may not exceed +10. If all spellcasters involved have this ability, choose one to be the recipient of the Cooperative Study.

Level 2: Arcane Thesis (Pyromancy): +2 competence bonus on saves against fire abilities, +1 to the DC of [fire] spells. These bonuses double at level 6.

Level 3: Searing Spell as a bonus feat. Using it does not extend the casting time of the spell.

Level 6: Cannot ever cast [cold] spells or use items which mimic or cast those spells. Can cast [fire] spells with metamagic feats applied with no change in casting time.
After level 6, the Scholarum Sorcerer may continue gaining levels in Sorcerer as normal.



Scholarum Sorcerer 1 - HP 5
STR 8 - DEX 14 - CON 13 - INT 12 - WIS 10 - CHA 15. Feats: Precocious Apprentice (Scorching Ray), Fiery Burst, Bloodline of Fire, Draconic Heritage (red), Draconic Power
Flaw: Noncombatant, Vulnerable (-1 AC)

Non-human: No ranks in Bluff or Intimidate, no Draconic Power (so -1 CL and an additional -1 CL with fire spells).

Skills: Max Craft (Alchemy), Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (the planes), Spellcraft, half ranks in Bluff and Intimidate

Spells Known
0th - Prestigiditation, Detect Magic, Message, Launch Item (5/day)
1st - Kelgore's Firebolt, Nerveskitter (4/day)
Fire spells are at CL 7 at level 1, other spells are at CL 2, cold spells are at CL 0 (cannot be cast).

Advancement:
2nd: learn Light,
3rd: Searing Spell (normal casting time), Versatile Spellcaster, learn Mage Armor,
4th: +1 CHA, retrain Precocious Apprentice into Expanded Arcana (Alter Self), Retrain Kelgore's Firebolt into Lesser Orb of Fire, learn Scorching Ray and Read Magic,
5th: learn Grease and [Glitterdust or Invisibility],
6th: Extra Spell (Dispel Magic), learn Fireball and Detect Poison,

Scrolls: Shield 5, Color Spray 5,
Alchemical Items: 1 Thunderstone, 2 Tanglefoot Bags, 1 Alchemist's Fire

Tactics: Use Launch Item to get Alchemical Items on target and without an attack roll. Once the target is in a tanglefoot bag, blast them to bits with fire attacks. If there's more than one enemy, get defensive spells up first!
 
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