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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Annatar said:
Amateur hour, how about we drop him off in the middle of the feywyld and leave him there? That would be hilarious, and we'd never even hear from him again since there's literally no way he could save himself since he's so incompetent.
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I never knew that I wanted this.... I so want to do this now, just need the idiot to give us an excuse. One meeting with him should be enough and then boom enjoy the Feywild.

Crake said:
Don't even get me started about Tyrells.
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Can't promise anything, dreaming of all the horrible things that could befall them "accidentally" is what brings me joy.
 
Now, now, don't throw all the Tyrells under the bus just because Mace is a fool and his mother a grasping harpy, if a charming one.

The vast majority of Tyrells were very loyal to the Targaryens, seeing as it's the Targaryens who raised them up from stewards. That's why the Florents have been butthurt for three centuries, after all. :D
 
Paradosi said:
Now, now, don't throw all the Tyrells under the bus just because Mace is a fool and his mother a grasping harpy, if a charming one.

The vast majority of Tyrells were very loyal to the Targaryens, seeing as it's the Targaryens who raised them up from stewards. That's why the Florents have been butthurt for three centuries, after all. :D
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They were loyal. Until the second they were offered a better position, at which point they jumped ship wholeheartedly. Bunch a skeeving shits, Aegon should have killed the lot of them with the Gradeners.
 
Mmm...they were loyal until Aerys started burning high lords without trial and Rhaegar kidnapped another high lord's daughter and betrothed.

Like, I get that we don't like Bobby B and the Rebellion, but they had a perfectly legitimate cause.
 
Paradosi said:
Now, now, don't throw all the Tyrells under the bus just because Mace is a fool and his mother a grasping harpy, if a charming one.

The vast majority of Tyrells were very loyal to the Targaryens, seeing as it's the Targaryens who raised them up from stewards. That's why the Florents have been butthurt for three centuries, after all. :D
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Yes, so very loyal they spent an entire war sitting on their asses having drinks instead of reinforcing KL or the Trident. To starve out a keep one does not need the entire army of the reach.

Would be less annoyed if it weren't for their other bullshit after... almost turning the entire Reach into a feywild for example and then when faced with Viserys they complained traitor houses were treated better then them, the loyal ones. So loyal they never sent any aid to Viserys this entire time even though every damn lord knew he was in Braavos. They had the audacity to complain when we saved them from devils and took over their debts that would have ruined them.

Hah, more respect to the rebels who fought and died for what they believed then the Tyrells that scream out their loyalty while hiding away from battle to see if they can get out ahead without sacrificing anything.
 
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notbirdofprey said:
Mmm...they were loyal until Aerys started burning high lords without trial and Rhaegar kidnapped another high lord's daughter and betrothed.

Like, I get that we don't like Bobby B and the Rebellion, but they had a perfectly legitimate cause.
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Nah, fuck that. Bobbity B and the rest had a reason. Mace just tried to play it safe so his fat ass could win no matter who died. The Tyrells dont get any credit period.
 
Annatar said:
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CandyCoatedChaos said:
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There's a reason I mentioned Mace and Olenna. It's the two of them that are the reason for it all, and maybe Margaery(but I blame her father far more than I do her). You can't just throw all the Tyrells before Mace under the bus, just because of his actions. No more than you can throw all the Targaryens under the bus for Aerys' actions(or any number of batshit insane Targaryens).

That's the problem with hereditary positions. Sooner or later, an idiot or a madman will take the reins.
 
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Paradosi said:
There's a reason I mentioned Mace and Olenna. It's the two of them that are the reason for it all, and maybe Margaery(but I blame her father far more than I do her). You can't just throw all the Tyrells before Mace under the bus, just because of his actions. No more than you can throw all the Targaryens under the bus for Aerys' actions(or any number of batshit insane Targaryens).

That's the problem with inherited power. Sooner or later, an idiot will inherit.
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That is very reasonable.

I am not. The Tyrells sans maybe Margaery all deserve to live on a barren rock begging for scraps of food. Quite frankly Mace being an idiot is on all of them, at some point if Olenna and the rest can't get him to stop doing things like selling himself to the fey they should "deal" with the issue.
 
notbirdofprey said:
Mmm...they were loyal until Aerys started burning high lords without trial and Rhaegar kidnapped another high lord's daughter and betrothed.

Like, I get that we don't like Bobby B and the Rebellion, but they had a perfectly legitimate cause.
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True, Aerys and Rhaegar were plenty reason to rebel (gods damn them both), but ultimately it doesn't matter for our purposes. The Tyrells were traitors to House Targaryen as a whole, and they better consider themselves lucky we're leaving them alive and the lords of Highgarden.

I'm less mad about that and more mad about how difficult they made things with the Court of Stars. Things would have been much easier had they found a way to avoid that bargain.
 
CandyCoatedChaos said:
I am not. The Tyrells sans maybe Margaery all deserve to live on a barren rock begging for scraps of food. Quite frankly Mace being an idiot is on all of them, at some point if Olenna and the rest can't get him to stop doing things like selling himself to the fey they should "deal" with the issue.
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Why sans maybe Margaery? I'd put her brothers first. Willas and Garlan are reasonable men, and Loras is young, impassioned. Margaery is a victim of her father, sure, but she does share a fair few of her grandmother's tendencies.

Blaming all the Tyrells for Mace being a fool and Olenna being too clever for her own good is little different from blaming Rhaella or Rhaegar or Viserys for Aerys burning people alive for shits and giggles. Honestly, we should have just dealt with Mace and Olenna ourselves, let someone more reasonable take power. Not like the Tyrells(and who?) could have done it without it being blatant kinslaying. It'd have avoided a lotta this CoS business.
 
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Margaery simply gets a pass because she is young enough that even I can't reasonably argue that she should have shanked Mace when this whole Cos bull started. Loras too I guess.

The rest really get no excuse for this. You realize we have had more issues in Westeros from those that were or should have been loyal then any other house except maybe the Lannisters, and even then I would argue the Tyrells fucked up worse.

Edit: Realize we have had many many houses send people to the Deep to pledge loyalty or see about doing it.

The "loyal" Tyrells did not. Because they banked on getting off scot free in an invasion because of their previous "loyalty"

And if it turned out we only cared about Essos then they still looked loyal to the crown of the Usurper. Yes Mace is the lord, but no lord last very long if the entire rest of the family goes lol nope your not doing that.
 
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CandyCoatedChaos said:
Margaery simply gets a pass because she is young enough that even I can't reasonably argue that she should have shanked Mace when this whole Cos bull started. Loras too I guess.

The rest really get no excuse for this. You realize we have had more issues in Westeros from those that were or should have been loyal then any other house except maybe the Lannisters, and even then I would argue the Tyrells fucked up worse.
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What could Willas or Garlan have done? They're his sons. They can't just shank their father. And their grandmother egged on a lotta his bad decisions, even as she berated him for being an idiot, ironically.

Think about it, man. Can you blame Rhaella for not shanking Aerys or otherwise stopping him from burning people alive? How about Viserys? It makes no sense for Viserys to act from a position of inherited guilt when it immediately weakens his own standing, because his father and many, many Targaryens were absolutely batshit crazy. I'd blame the system that allows this kind of abuse to go down, not the victims of it.

There's needs to be levers to remove dangerous and unstable individuals before they inherit positions of power.
 
In the Seven Kingdoms, the lord more or less has absolute power over his entire house. If Rhaella and Rhaegar went to Aerys and told him to cut his crazy shit out(which they wouldn't, cause they'd be imprisoned or maybe even killed for the presumption), he isn't at all obligated to listen to them. The same goes for Mace or Tywin or any other lord. They hold absolute power. And that power is abused all the time.

That leaves only a coup(a dangerous and risky prospect) or kinslaying(an extremely dangerous and risky prospect).
 
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Paradosi said:
What could Willas or Garlan have done? They're his sons. They can't just shank their father. And their grandmother egged on a lotta his bad decisions, even as she berated him for being an idiot, ironically.

Think about it, man. Can you blame Rhaella for not shanking Aerys or otherwise stopping him from burning people alive? How about Viserys? It makes no sense for Viserys to act from a position of inherited guilt when it immediately weakens his own standing, because his father and many, many Targaryens were absolutely batshit crazy. I'd blame the system that allows this kind of abuse to go down, not the victims of it.

There's needs to be levers to remove dangerous and unstable individuals before they inherit positions of power.
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Not saying my whole stance is reasonable, my personal hate for them tho, fact is as batshit as the king was people around him did try and for many years succeeded in managing him (Tywin)

Now Mace isn't the brightest bulb in the box and Olenna thinks herself too clever but at some point you've got to go no one in the family has done shit to prove loyalty or intelligence so its on all of you.
 
CandyCoatedChaos said:
Not saying my whole stance is reasonable, my personal hate for them tho, fact is as batshit as the king was people around him did try and for many years succeeded in managing him (Tywin)

Now Mace isn't the brightest bulb in the box and Olenna thinks herself too clever but at some point you've got to go no one in the family has done shit to prove loyalty or intelligence so its on all of you.
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That was all before Duskendale. After Duskendale, Tywin couldn't do fuck-all to stymie Aerys. And that's why he eventually fucked off and they became at odds. Aerys only spiraled further into insanity in the years to follow.

And, honestly, do we know if nobody has tried? And who is there to try it? Willas is a cripple and loves his family. He's not going to betray them, even for a good cause. The same is true of Garlan. I guess there's Tyrell cousins and uncles or whatever not, but we don't have a clue how much influence they hold over Mace, if any.

Even if you say your stance is unreasonable, I'm just curious as to which Tyrells you're blaming for not deposing Mace and telling Olenna to shut the fuck up? There isn't all that many important Tyrells in the books.
 
Willas isn't a cripple and hasn't been since magic returned.

And this all started on the argument not to blame all Tyrells for Mace and Olenna... Yet no one has shown any discontent.

There have been no cousins arriving in the Deep for the tourney or after. No Willas trying to reach out for help even after seeing all Viserys accomplished.

Only after we personally went to the reach and bailed them out did we have contact.

Cutting Maces head off isn't the only way to disagree on what he was doing. Yet no one of the Tyrells ever tried, and when we did help they were pissed we weren't thankfull for their so called loyalty.

They cut a horrible deal with the fey and were still being taken up the ass by devils and yet still no one stepped out of the party line of Mace knows best.

I get that feudal setting etc. I ain't gonna go and say that does not matter. However then they also don't get to say only Mace and Olenna were idiots so the rest of us are cool alright. There was plenty that could have been done without betraying or killing Mace.

Not that I would have had a problem with him betrayed or dead.

Either way I think we arent changing each other's mind so gonna stop and get some sleep.

P.S Death to all Tyrells!
 
Well hating the Tyrells is easy considering that they committed active treason against us. We straight up have confirmation of such a thing. The fact that they are keeping Highgarden is us being merciful. Yes Aerys was crazy but it is down right expected in this setting to execute traitors.
 
Nothing is guaranteed, anything is possible. Lots of opportunities to do something massively stupid. We'll see how things shake out.
 
CandyCoatedChaos said:
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It depends on what DP has in mind, honestly. Canonically, there isn't much to go on. And you have to focus your hateboner! We know that Mace and Olenna are responsible for most or all of our issues with House Tyrell. We don't know if any Tyrells have tried to speak to Mace and dissuade him. We don't have any spies in Highgarden, I think?

I can't in good conscience hate all the Tyrells when the primary culprits are two people... and one of them wasn't even born a Tyrell, but a Redwyne. And without details of who disagreed or egged it on or what not.

One Autumn Leaf said:
Well hating the Tyrells is easy considering that they committed active treason against us. We straight up have confirmation of such a thing. The fact that they are keeping Highgarden is us being merciful. Yes Aerys was crazy but it is down right expected in this setting to execute traitors.
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The treason is not in question(even if you could argue that they never swore oaths to Viserys, I guess), what's in question is who is responsible for it. Saying "the Tyrells" is like saying "the Targaryens" are responsible for Aerys burning Rickard and Brandon Stark and countless other people or *insert insane shit some Targaryen has done*. Collective guilt is a terrible thing, and has led to a litany of tragedies, up to ethnic cleansing and downright genocide.

And besides, isn't a major theme of the quest changing things for the better? That's like the whole underlying motive for the Imperium. Collective guilt is just more of the same old, same old.
 
Honestly, I also just kinda feel sad because all it took was Mace Tyrell and a couple of bad decisions to undo everything the Tyrells of the past worked to accomplish. If you're going to look at things in a collective sense, you have to take the good with the bad. Does one treasonous(or criminally incompetent) lord outweigh the dozens of leal lords?

Heck, we all know what Viserys' canonical fate is/was. It's sad. And it's because his father was a madman and his brother a madman of another shade. It wasn't his fault. It wasn't Rhaella's fault. It was Aerys and Rhaegar.
 
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You know, I've been rereading some old updates, and even knowing the twist beforehand I was still struck by a feeling of shock when the Tyrell marriage plan was revealed.
Margaery is presented as someone clever most of the time, but the very idea that we'd marry her is at best ridiculous. Not only is she far too young to marry Viserys (although not for the reasons she thinks - she says she's too young because she wouldn't be taken seriously as Queen, he thinks she's too young because pedophilia is eww), but she just doesn't seem to get the whole "Pacification of the Western Provinces" thing. You're the heir to one eight of a minor border Kingdom (more specifically, the eight that's being subverted by Fey due to bargains made by your traitor family) and you hope we'll marry you? The current candidate is a Mythic Archmage twice over!
 
When it's all said and done, there will still be a House Tyrell. It will be short a few members and its power in the Reach will be gutted, but it will still exist.

They were traitors, though they weren't Lannisters.
 
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