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Just because the king is away does not mean that anarchy rules the nation. How on earth can a nation bribe Spain to give Gibralter? Please explain to me because I'm actually really confused.
A Reforged World (NO SV, You are King of Italy, in a Greatly Changed World)
- Thread starter Magoose
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
They're morseo Mercenaries playing as Raiders, but
..We do need the Sinai for a future project.
However, we do have a peace treaty that Suleiman would've been smart enough to not destroy it.
We also have a generational peace with Spain because we married Isabella. Declaring war on Spain before we've even had a kid with her makes the entire marriage pointless. What makes you think Spain has any ambitions against Italy? We literally married a Spanish princess and if Charles returns Spain has a whole two continents to conquer. Spain did the Italian Wars OTL because it was a mess of city states and they already ruled Sicily and Naples. Here Italy is united and the Italian Queen is a Spaniard and sister to the Spanish King. Charles for all of his insanity sees Luciano as a brother. We will not see war with Spain or the HRE within a generation unless we do something crazy to ignite them, like I don't know conquering Spanish islands in the name of abolition.
There is also no way that Spain will sell us Gibraltar, land that they conquered a generation ago as the end point of a centuries long holy war that forms the foundation of the Spanish mythos and identity. Spain selling Gibraltar to us is like if modern America sold New York City to the United Kingdom. Gibraltar is too important culturally and economically to part for just a sum of money. Also Spain is not in anarchy. They have a working regency, are apparently the most prosperous nation of Europe at this point besides Italy. If Charles doesn't return, the regency will just crown Ferdinand as King. Renaissance politics isn't a game of EU4. Literally just fight the Ottomans if you want anti-slavery. Hell, I'm pretty sure we haven't even abolished serfdom.
Like how it would be smart not to destroy the generational peace we have with our dynastic in-laws.
How about this then:
Have the Navy send an envoy to Spain to inform them the need of a Port to be shared to be able to perform sweeping manuevres to check for any breakings of the Policies of "Pax Itallia".
Then follow it up with a payment..so we're practically renting the place "For an Undetermined amount of time"..with the Italians defending it in totality in place of the Spanish if they are ever at war with any power of Europe so they could spend more forces into Main Europe than boggle down in some port.
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What he meant is that: The president is away in Australia thus it will be easy to bribe the mayor of NYC along with other local and corrupt officials to break away and join the UK. I think.
Could someone more knowledgeable regarding this time period tell me whether or not that belongs to Egypt?
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
- Location
- California USA
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It belongs to Egypt currently but they are in the sights of Suliman for conquest
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[X] Plan True Control of the Mediterranean.
-[X]The Prime Ministers' Pet Project: The Prime minister is wishintg to use the surplus of Gold in the budget to fund schools… Grammar School he calls them, to teach latin, Italian, and Greek, along with mathematics and literacy. He just needs your support for the Senate to Approve them. DC: ??? Reward: You begin the process of founding new schools for the Major cities. (Will complete This turn)
-[X]Invest in the Future: You want to invest in your country, and there are a few ways you can do that (Write in what you want to invest in) DC: ??? Reward: You invest in the nation (Linetail what you want to invest in below this action as a line tail)
--[X] Hire officers for the army, expanding it if possible.
---[X] Fund border defense drills and tactics training.
-[X]Foreign Diplomatic Adventures: You are to send diplomats out and about to make sure that the interests of Italy are respected. DC: ?? Reward: You see what is to be done. (Linetail what you want to do diplomatically)
--[X] Attempt to annex Gibralter from Spain.
-[X]Rebuilding Rome (The Sewers): You have a strong belief that if the city can remain clean and healthy, the city's entire place will follow. DC: ??? Reward: You begin a reconstruction of Romes's Ancient Sewers. (Costs 4 Turns)
-[X]Simple Matters of Trust: You and Isabella take a long look at each other, as she looks at you. "You want to know something… I honestly thought you were going to rape me when we wed…The fact you didn't, means you are a better man than any man who would have been my husband." DC: ??? Reward: Isabella begins to trust you fully.
-[X]The Steam Engine: You will take a look at the New Steam Engine, and see what you can do. DC: ??? Reward: You finally see what Leonardo's steam engine can do.
-[X]The Prince: You are going to learn from your master's book, and see what wisdom you can gleam. DC: 55 Reward: you learn how to be a Prince of a nation.
-[X]The Eagle: Ezio has returned and is back to the problem at hand. Trying to serve as a friend to a king. DC: 40 Reward: You meet Ezio again.
We made a fuck ton of money, and spain is without a king, so Annex Gibralter and parts of the Spanish Canaries while everyone competent is away searching for Charles. If one diplomat proves too stobborn, perhaps his replacement will prove less so *Nods towards Ezio*.
We have just made a staggering amount of money off the Hungary/Ottoman war. The hungarian king payed well for our weapons, Suleiman payed for more and he payed at raised costs. Probably 9 digit florin prices. Thats before the trade profits, years of Suleiman paying 10 million(8 digits) florins each year as part of the peace treaty. Italy the wealthiest nation in the western world right now. There is also the whole thought in the back of anyones head that we could take it if we wanted to. Against a top diplomat that would be a small advantage. A lesser one, it's much bigger, and makes it easier to let them justify that they avoided the wrath of the Italian navy and made Spain a profit in the process. Of course, a more stobborn diplomat suffering a terrible accident may ease the process.
-[X]The Prime Ministers' Pet Project: The Prime minister is wishintg to use the surplus of Gold in the budget to fund schools… Grammar School he calls them, to teach latin, Italian, and Greek, along with mathematics and literacy. He just needs your support for the Senate to Approve them. DC: ??? Reward: You begin the process of founding new schools for the Major cities. (Will complete This turn)
-[X]Invest in the Future: You want to invest in your country, and there are a few ways you can do that (Write in what you want to invest in) DC: ??? Reward: You invest in the nation (Linetail what you want to invest in below this action as a line tail)
--[X] Hire officers for the army, expanding it if possible.
---[X] Fund border defense drills and tactics training.
-[X]Foreign Diplomatic Adventures: You are to send diplomats out and about to make sure that the interests of Italy are respected. DC: ?? Reward: You see what is to be done. (Linetail what you want to do diplomatically)
--[X] Attempt to annex Gibralter from Spain.
-[X]Rebuilding Rome (The Sewers): You have a strong belief that if the city can remain clean and healthy, the city's entire place will follow. DC: ??? Reward: You begin a reconstruction of Romes's Ancient Sewers. (Costs 4 Turns)
-[X]Simple Matters of Trust: You and Isabella take a long look at each other, as she looks at you. "You want to know something… I honestly thought you were going to rape me when we wed…The fact you didn't, means you are a better man than any man who would have been my husband." DC: ??? Reward: Isabella begins to trust you fully.
-[X]The Steam Engine: You will take a look at the New Steam Engine, and see what you can do. DC: ??? Reward: You finally see what Leonardo's steam engine can do.
-[X]The Prince: You are going to learn from your master's book, and see what wisdom you can gleam. DC: 55 Reward: you learn how to be a Prince of a nation.
-[X]The Eagle: Ezio has returned and is back to the problem at hand. Trying to serve as a friend to a king. DC: 40 Reward: You meet Ezio again.
We made a fuck ton of money, and spain is without a king, so Annex Gibralter and parts of the Spanish Canaries while everyone competent is away searching for Charles. If one diplomat proves too stobborn, perhaps his replacement will prove less so *Nods towards Ezio*.
First off the best people Charles left behind are headed to the new world to try and drag Charles back. There most trustworthy and competent diplomats have left to convince a young man mad with power to return. This means the kingdom of spain is left with possibly it's third best diplomats, some of whom are maybe disloyal, many of whom will be somewhat corrupt.
We have just made a staggering amount of money off the Hungary/Ottoman war. The hungarian king payed well for our weapons, Suleiman payed for more and he payed at raised costs. Probably 9 digit florin prices. Thats before the trade profits, years of Suleiman paying 10 million(8 digits) florins each year as part of the peace treaty. Italy the wealthiest nation in the western world right now. There is also the whole thought in the back of anyones head that we could take it if we wanted to. Against a top diplomat that would be a small advantage. A lesser one, it's much bigger, and makes it easier to let them justify that they avoided the wrath of the Italian navy and made Spain a profit in the process. Of course, a more stobborn diplomat suffering a terrible accident may ease the process.
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Orion Ultor
Everything’s Got A Price.
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[X] Plan Networking and Invention
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[X] Plan Networking and Invention
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We don't have a generational peace, and as history demonstrates, those rarely hold up to ambition. Suleiman executed the husband of one of his siblings, Austria sees this marriage as an easy in to absorb the italian nation and break it up into austrian princedoms, spain as a whole is salty about our unification and wants us under there thumb as well. Don't expect our marriage to amount to much when it comes to ensuring peace with any of our neighbors. The only ones who respects us even a little is Suleiman and Charles, both young men who's thirst for glory exceeds there sense.
Plan Name change. Have an update I've been ignoring for an hour so I'm leaving for a bit.
I shouldn't need to say this, but I've stuck with this quest from start to now and I don't accept any portrayal of Luciano where he just shrugs his shoulders and does nothing when someone who calls him brother builds an empire by enriching slavers.
Yeesh, Magoose was right about one thing about the consequences of Industrialism..
Italy has no abundance of Iron..and apparently the quality of it that is in Italy is considered to be poor to the point the Italian Government just ignores it in favour of foreign ones..
There are some in Venician Greece..but the Coal found in it is considered to be the most harmful of coals as it produces high Carbon Dioxide with less heat.
Fortunately, there are some Iron Deposits in the Jura Mountains in Switzerland, and Savoyan Province (The land that would belong in modern France) does have Coal Deposits.
Other than that..we would either have to trade other nations for Coal and Iron (which increases the curiosity of other powers towards Industrialism), or find ways outside Europe to gain them via trade..and I'm sure many of you know the other option.
Italy has no abundance of Iron..and apparently the quality of it that is in Italy is considered to be poor to the point the Italian Government just ignores it in favour of foreign ones..
There are some in Venician Greece..but the Coal found in it is considered to be the most harmful of coals as it produces high Carbon Dioxide with less heat.
Fortunately, there are some Iron Deposits in the Jura Mountains in Switzerland, and Savoyan Province (The land that would belong in modern France) does have Coal Deposits.
Other than that..we would either have to trade other nations for Coal and Iron (which increases the curiosity of other powers towards Industrialism), or find ways outside Europe to gain them via trade..and I'm sure many of you know the other option.
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I believe the last time we improved Cannons(back in rebirth) @Magoose said the big obstacle to improving our cannons was munitions quality, so you may want to switch to the ammunitions version.
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
- Location
- California USA
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correct.
After all..using a Napoleonic-Era Grapeshot Ammunition into a Breechloading Field Battery would be a recipe for disaster.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no0qB8CVspY
Oh boy. First of all, diplomacy doesn't work like some visual novel where conversations have difficulty checks and some diplomats are complete dumbasses just because of their rank. If Biden is in another country and Secretary of State Anthony Blinken is with him, that does not mean that Xi Jinping can just waltz into Washington and get everything he wants from the Assistant Secretary of State. Even if hypothetically Spain sent their top diplomats to talk with Charles, which I highly doubt as they most likely would have sent people Charles is personally comfortable with, that doesn't mean that the rest of Spanish diplomats are utter dumbasses. The Spanish Regent, most likely Margaret of Austria who is competent, would still be in charge and they made Spain into the second strongest in Europe as of last turn. They WILL NOT just bend over backwards to us just because the monarch is out of town. Charles literally spent most of his reign OTL travelling across the HRE and residing in the Netherlands. That didn't mean that any diplomats could just waltz into Vienna or Madrid and get what they wanted.
Second, you are missing the point. Money does not matter, it's the principle. Gibraltar is considered core Spanish territory. It was the last territory won in the Reconquista, a war which is the foundation of Spanish identity. Never once in its history did Spain sell core European territory to either an ally or rival, and ever since the British took it the Spanish have been salty about it to this day. You don't just sell core parts of your nation for money, and selling land for money is not even considered a diplomatic norm here. We are 200 years away from that concept becoming normalized in international diplomacy.
Look at the Rumor mill rolls for the world. Austria is in a dog shit spot and has to deal with the Ottomans marching on Vienna. Between the existing threat of the Ottomans who are seen as Satanic conquerors and continual border prodding from France, Austria and the HRE cannot declare war on us and try to force us into being a vassal without opening themselves to being stabbed in the gut. Spain lost its ambitions to Italy due to Naples and Sicily joining our nation from its foundation, thus erasing the Italian Wars on their end. They have no immediate desire to go to war with us when they can just colonize the New World or go and conquer North Africa with Portugal. If they declare war on us unjustly we beat their ass with our Navy and Spain has no other routes to invade. This is alarmist logic that ignores nuance and the conditions on the ground.
This isn't Luciano just being apathetic to his brother-in-law building an Empire of slavers. Luciano as a King has obligations to his nation and people, one of them is keeping them prosperous and that will not work when he's declaring war against every nation who commits evil. If that happens then Italy would be in a state of eternal war until the entire world is under their reign. It sucks ass but sometimes you have to let atrocities continue to not be in pointless wars. Why didn't Ulysses S. Grant, someone who hated slavery and actively fought the KKK in his presidency go and liberate Cuba and end slavery or declare war on Brazil to end slavery there? Because Grant had obligations to America and he would be thrown out of office for pursuing unjust wars for ideology when his nation was just bloodied. This is the exact same policeman rhetoric that lead to Iraq OTL.
If you want Luciano to play policeman then we gotta declare war on every other nation on Earth. Gotta declare war on the English to stop Irish slavery. Gotta declare war on the Ottomans to end the Janisarries and stop slavery there. Gotta declare war on all of Christian Europe to stop the persecution of the Jews. Gotta declare war on Japan to defend Christian missionaries. Gotta declare war on Korea for using slaves. Gotta declare war on Ming China for how they treat women. Gotta declare war on all of Sub-saharan Africa to stop their slave trade. Gotta declare war on India to abolish the caste system. Gotta declare war on....
There is a time and place for Luciano to fight the slave trade and that is not now. For crying out loud, Luciano at this point is practically Jesus in terms of morality because he's done the absolute most to stop the institution of slavery out of any ruler in all of Western history. We've done enough work for several lifetimes and if you want to kill slavery it's better to foster a culture of abolition so future generations can finish the work. If you want to end injustice, literally just dedicate Luciano to ending Serfdom with Italy. I'm pretty sure that's still in practice and Serfdom in many cases is just one step above slavery.
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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- California USA
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Serfdom is only outlawed in the Republics of Italy, along with Rome.
Its one of the privlidges for the Feudal lords to join up that they would have their privlidges protected, and Macheveli was not a chad enough to end serfdom in Italy.
And while Luciano is incredibly popular, he does not have the political will to End Serfdom in Italy.
Depending on the Next Government, however, there is a possibility.
When is the next Election?
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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- California USA
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in... (takes a look at notes.)
Chapter 10, so almost 5 years since the start of the game
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This is a quest. If it was reality, a new nation formed less than a decade ago couldn't become the worlds greatest naval power in less than 5 years and ravage the entire north african coast in 3 or four years to end slave trade in the mediterranean. Maybe pay more attention to the quest and less to historical europe when we've flipped all of European history on it's head thrice over.
In my mind it's a case of Luciano very much being satisfied with what he'd accomplished until Charles letter arrived, and his "Brother's" letter about the glorious empire he is building on the back of slaves galvanized him.
Serfdom within italy is a good alternative option, though I expect conflict with spain is kind of inevitable and Gibralter is going to be a serious issue later on when they've had time to build up.
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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Read the Tags.
Actions have consequences. And while we have changed things significantly, I am also making it clear that the calculus has changed since we started shit-kicking people in North Africa.
And I am really really prepared to make you suffer the consequences if you decide to do a lot of things.
Not that you can't do it, but I am prepared to punish you if you can't win or succeed.
Taking out Serfdom in Italy will take a decade... at the very least.
The Honeymoon period is over.
Italian politcs going to italian politics.
At least there won't be a year of lead.
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Why? Luciano is married to a Habsburgs, has no wars with them, are ocupied with other more pressing matters ( Ottomans, France, new world) and we have no border dispute's or claims on each others thrones. Why are you so certain about a war with Spain?
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Never said they didn't, just don't feel like the next 4 centuries of canonical Spanish pigheadedness when it comes to Gibralter should be the main point of consideration in making a try for it not. Building Leonardo's Steam engine also has consequences and is a marvelously difficult feat of engineering, but no ones questioning the possibility of pulling it off.
Didn't I buy us another 5 years before things go stabby/obstructiony? Maybe the honeymoon period is over, but the comfortably married situation has replaced it, not a divorced and fighting over the kids state.
Habsburg marriage means little. Their were plenty of wars both internally in holy rome and with other nations despite the prevalence of Habsburg blood in europe. The Marriage was made with an aim, and when it fails to accomplish it, it will likely lead to an accompanying hostilities.
Italy bypassed a good deal of Spanish claims and control of certain cities as part of the unification. Spain was super salty about that. If Charles hadn't fucked off taking tens of thousands of soldiers and a large portion of there navy to the new world, and the ottomans hadn't stepped up in the meantime, they'd have been the foremost potential challenger of Italy.
It feels likely that political issues will arise between Italy's control of the mediterranean, anti slavery naval policies, spain saltiness over territory claims, and inevitable jealousy over Italy's educational institutions and eventual steam engine.
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Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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Except that, in story and mechanically, and stat wise...
Luciano is one of the greatest engineers alive. And he has the resources of an entier country to play with on occassion if they have the budget.
Which they do.
Correct... but its more of the "Did I really make the right choice/I'm staying because of the Kids" Arrangement.
Which can change. the next wave of politcal thinkers and people are going tobe coming in.
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Okay, does my choice of reward keep the political system of Italy from destabilizing into murder or obstruction of governance for a few years/turns after the upcoming election or not?