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A Light from the Shadow (Tolkien CKII)

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ganonso said:
Depends on the Piety roll: Crit Success means you suffer so much one of the Valar directly intervene.
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Which means that anything below that leaves us crippled physically and psychologically long-term, or however long it takes for the fragment to burn itself out, doesn't it? Can't exactly think straight when you feel like your blood and brain is boiling.

Or freezing, since we're made of fire so that's probably the best comparison for us.

Well crap.

[] Take the burden of the pain into your being

Because the marred children have suffered enough.

Though if this takes us out and we can't contribute for the rest of the Council on account of being unconscious or delirious, I'll be right cross.

On an unrelated note: GM, think you can move the Character Sheet to the Informational threadmarks?

EDIT

Ultimately changed my mind. Let's hope the difference of 2 points in our Piety vs Learning score doesn't mean we fail (31 v. 29).
 
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Karmic Acumen said:
Which means that anything below that leaves us crippled physically and psychologically long-term, or however long it takes for the fragment to burn itself out, doesn't it? Can't exactly think straight when you feel like your blood and brain is boiling.

Or freezing, since we're made of fire so that's probably the best comparison for us.

Well crap.

[x] Take the burden of the pain into your being

Because the marred children have suffered enough.

Though if this takes us out and we can't contribute for the rest of the Council on account of being unconscious or delirious, I'll be right cross.

On an unrelated note: GM, think you can move the Character Sheet to the Informational threadmarks?
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Being delirious during the council is the crit-failure result.
Failure means you'll have some maluses due to the gaping wound in your being Or possibly bee unable to take Balrog Form for the coming fight as it is more affected by the taint.
Success means you ride the pain and manage to keep things working
Crit Success means one of the Valar directly intervenes meaning no maluses and a Piety option directly made because you established a link.

The crit-failure of fighting song to song is well to lose the battle and have the fragment try to corrupt you, Elrond and Galadriel. And also killing Prekk as his body cannot bear to be a battlefield.
The crit-success of fighting song to song is to fill Prekk with the essence of a Calaquendi and a Maïa to replace the Boldog-Blood, resulting in the Orc equivalent of a Numenorean.
Fighting song to song is a Learning roll by the way.

Also hilariously it's certainly the most important thing you are doing in the entire quest. Even the Valar never tried to heal the Orcs. If you prove it is possible Oromë and possibly Tulkas and Mandos will feel they have excuses to present and perhaps ages of grounding to bear after the end of the world.

Still better than what awaits Morgoth who will be sent to his room all alone until Eru judges he has learned to play nice with his siblings.
 
ganonso said:
Nope. The song raising in Prekk's body is of Morgoth and have no Sauronic influence. It's a mechanism of the taint that created the Orcs intended to fuck over any who would undo Morgoth's work. And you are lucky Prekk is only of Umaïa descent. The first generation of Orcs have protocols intended with Estë or Irmo in mind. Not Nienna though, Morgoth never understood the need to developp any counter-measure for her, the result of being Evil given form.
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Well tits. Hopefully Nienna will still help us out. We're basically doing her thing, except on a smaller scale (relatively). It'd be nice to not just go in blind.
 
ganonso said:
Being delirious during the council is the crit-failure result.
Failure means you'll have some maluses due to the gaping wound in your being Or possibly bee unable to take Balrog Form for the coming fight as it is more affected by the taint.
Success means you ride the pain and manage to keep things working
Crit Success means one of the Valar directly intervenes meaning no maluses and a Piety option directly made because you established a link.

The crit-failure of fighting song to song is well to lose the battle and have the fragment try to corrupt you, Elrond and Galadriel. And also killing Prekk as his body cannot bear to be a battlefield.
The crit-success of fighting song to song is to fill Prekk with the essence of a Calaquendi and a Maïa to replace the Boldog-Blood, resulting in the Orc equivalent of a Numenorean.
Fighting song to song is a Learning roll by the way.

Also hilariously it's certainly the most important thing you are doing in the entire quest. Even the Valar never tried to heal the Orcs. If you prove it is possible Oromë and possibly Tulkas and Mandos will feel they have excuses to present and perhaps ages of grounding to bear after the end of the world.

Still better than what awaits Morgoth who will be sent to his room all alone until Eru judges he has learned to play nice with his siblings.
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Now I'm actually tempted to switch to fighting. Numenorcs are definitely a sweet and shiny carrot.

Must resist.

EDIT

Failed to resist.

Well, at least the difference in rolls will be of 2 points max. We're at Learning 29 and Piety 31.

[X] Fight the Discord song to song
 
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ganonso said:
Still better than what awaits Morgoth who will be sent to his room all alone until Eru judges he has learned to play nice with his siblings.
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I'm guessing the Second Doom of Mandos is not canon to this quest then?

As for the vote, I honestly am okay with either option. I'll wait and see how the votes fall and act as a tie breaker if necessary. But, for the moment, I abstain.
 
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Take the pain into your being: Possibly Calaquendi or Valar-Blessed Learning Advisor
Fight the Discord Song to Song: Possibly Numenorc.
 
Finagle007 said:
He's not gonna get sent to time out. He's gonna be KILLED.
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Yes that's what the Valar will do to him, well Turin Turambar if you believe the prophecy. Then Arda who was Morgoth's Ring will be destroyed and all Aïnur will rejoin the Timeless Halls and the presence of Eru.

Then Melkor will be basically locked of any future creation endeavours until he's proven he can change.

Or not. I admit I love the idea that when he will take back the essence he spread across Arda, Melkor will absorb the feelings of all he has marred. Yes all the evil but also the occasionnal glimpses of goodness present in even the worst lives. Thus, he will learn empathy and retakes his place in the great design and the Second Music will have no Discord.

For after all if Eru is not cruel, surely Melkor had a role in the beginning who was not just "become the devil". Remember what he said to Melkor before he entered Arda

"No theme can be played who has not its uttermost source in me nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he who attempteth this shall prove my instrument in the devising of things more wonderful which himself hath not imagined".

Even Melkor plays his part in the grand design. And to be punished for playing your part, even if you are the Adversary, would be immoral.

On other notes, add to the possible benefits of taking the pain in yourselves that one of the Piety options can be accomplished that way without having to wait a turn.
 
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[X] Take the burden of the pain into your being

the way i see it we are practically flagellants at this rate, might as well go full masochist...
 
ganonso said:
Even Melkor plays his part in the grand design. And to be punished for playing your part, even if you are the Adversary, would be immoral.
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Except no one told him or forced him to be contrary, spiteful and destructive. It's one thing to set someone up for failure, it's another thing entirely to work around a spiteful, self-absorbed individual in order to overturn their acts of malice and overcome (massive) delays in your design plan.

Let's not become outright Morgoth apologists, shall we? No one set Morgoth on his path but himself. That Eru can exploit his tantrum (eventually, once it's too late to really make a difference to everyone Morgoth has ever inflicted suffering on, which is everyone) only shows Eru is more powerful and pan-temporally and pan-spatially aware than everyone else.

Tl;DR: You say "To be punished for playing your part, even if you are the Adversary, would be immoral." Well, for Morgoth to have just been set up to be the Adversary due to some vague "omniscient morality license," would make Eru Satan, not God.
 
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Well it's the problem of evil in Arda. Funnilly enough just like Paradise Lost's God let Lucifer escape hell without warning anyone about it, Eru lets Melkor descend into Arda. After Melkor already sang the Discord into creation. You would think an omnibenevolent deity would have spanked Melkor right now and not exposed a whole universe to his malice.

To be fair, you would have thought the Valar would have remembered the Discord and that Melkor was actually on his second chance while in Utumno. But then the Valar have their share of stupid and selfishly evil acts, even if they pale in comparaison of their wayward sibling. But that's ok the text outright recognizes things like believing Melkor's lies was a bad move on Manwë's part.

More on the point I read that one of the reasons Tolkien scratched Daggor Daggorath and the Second Music is that, as Morgoth is a free-willed creature, there's always a chance he sincerely repents.
 
It's the paradox of omnipotence. A being that can do anything and everything must logically be responsible for all good and evil since said being could have changed anything at any time.
 
ganonso said:
Yes that's what the Valar will do to him, well Turin Turambar if you believe the prophecy. Then Arda who was Morgoth's Ring will be destroyed and all Aïnur will rejoin the Timeless Halls and the presence of Eru.

Then Melkor will be basically locked of any future creation endeavours until he's proven he can change.

Or not. I admit I love the idea that when he will take back the essence he spread across Arda, Melkor will absorb the feelings of all he has marred. Yes all the evil but also the occasionnal glimpses of goodness present in even the worst lives. Thus, he will learn empathy and retakes his place in the great design and the Second Music will have no Discord.

For after all if Eru is not cruel, surely Melkor had a role in the beginning who was not just "become the devil". Remember what he said to Melkor before he entered Arda

"No theme can be played who has not its uttermost source in me nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he who attempteth this shall prove my instrument in the devising of things more wonderful which himself hath not imagined".

Even Melkor plays his part in the grand design. And to be punished for playing your part, even if you are the Adversary, would be immoral.

On other notes, add to the possible benefits of taking the pain in yourselves that one of the Piety options can be accomplished that way without having to wait a turn.
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Maybe it could be a little of both. Turin Turumbar, with Beren Camlost at his side, slays Morgoth and avenges himself and all of mankind in the act. But, just because a physical body was destroyed doesn't mean that is fea was too.

Also, while Melkor chose his path himself, I do believe Eru didn't force it on him, it must be said that if the Ainur are from Eru's thought and all their music had to come from him, some of those darker impulses existed in Eru's mind as well. It actually makes me think of something I read once that God made the universe so he could understand it. When we die we all go back to God and our able to understand the unfolding story of the universe and our place in it. Not that I personally believe that, but the idea of a Second Music which humanity itself sings along with the Ainur fits that.

Also, I find it interesting it is the second born that sings with the Ainur. Manwe and the Valar in general have always been wary of man because they were most like Melkor/Morgoth (I could get started on how hypocritical the Valar can be and that while most of their beliefs were wrong the Numenoreans did have some valid reasons in saying the Valar practiced favoritism towards the Elves, but that is another argument) but with them going to conceivably the Halls Eru resides in beyond the world and spending the ages watching the events of Arda unfold they also gain some likeness to the Ainur like they already see in the Elves. It's just interesting to me.
 
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Yeah I admit I have been marked by a dead French Fanfic where Eru's declaration was one of the big motivators for Morgoth's descent into madness and evil.

Basically Melkor wanted to create something who was only and wholly his, only he is himself a created being so he can only subcreate. Even as he works and changes, he always sees the light of Eru in his creations and others'.

Thus he destroys them because he cannot abide something which he can't wholly possess. And soon rather than work with Light he chooses Darkness because he thinks he can, I don't know, shame Eru by building horrors and twisting everything others have built. No more creation, just denial and the wish to destroy all existence because it was not made only by Melkor.

And through the long ages he keeps still the knowledge everything he does will contribute to the glory of the whole. But where some other bad guys would be comforted by this, or find justification, the knowledge drives him to madness because he cannot escape Eru's pattern and I doubt Eru has a sense of shame who could be offended by whatever Morgoth does or orders.

And what wonders does he create unwillingly? His lies enables people to show their wisdom by not listening to him, his great terror invite the most desperate of courage. Even his slaying of the Two Trees force the Valar to not hoard Light for their own uses but send Sun and Moon in the heavens. His torture makes Hurin's resilience, his might Fingolfin's courage, his cunning the Vanyar's purity.

Is it suprising Nienna mourns for him as well as his victims? But she is Grace and grace by definition is unearned. And Morgoth by introducing evil, introduces redemption and atonement in the Music.
 
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ganonso said:
Well it's the problem of evil in Arda. Funnilly enough just like Paradise Lost's God let Lucifer escape hell without warning anyone about it, Eru lets Melkor descend into Arda. After Melkor already sang the Discord into creation. You would think an omnibenevolent deity would have spanked Melkor right now and not exposed a whole universe to his malice.

To be fair, you would have thought the Valar would have remembered the Discord and that Melkor was actually on his second chance while in Utumno. But then the Valar have their share of stupid and selfishly evil acts, even if they pale in comparaison of their wayward sibling. But that's ok the text outright recognizes things like believing Melkor's lies was a bad move on Manwë's part.

More on the point I read that one of the reasons Tolkien scratched Daggor Daggorath and the Second Music is that, as Morgoth is a free-willed creature, there's always a chance he sincerely repents.
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I don't think Tolkien intended for any parallel to Milton's God, but something closer to the Christian god as depicted in the New Testament. Like C. S. Lewis' God in Narnia, as the two were friends and had many similar ideas, though Lewis was a admittedly a lot more pious.

The Valar did mess up as well, I agree, but that was more due to missing the point of Arda rather than any true malice: they forgot that Arda was supposed to belong to the Children of Eru, not them. If they'd acknowledged that, it might have occurred to them to learn FROM the Elves about things (especially the elves themselves), as opposed to just teaching THEM. Then Manwe would have actually known that duplicity and evil is a thing by the time the Unchaining of Melkor happened, since an age of Melkor destroying everything he and his built wasn't enough to enable him to "understand the existence of evil" or however it was phrased. Somehow.

Also, you should probably exclude fanfics for the purposes of canon interpretations :p. It was quite clearly stated in Silmarillion that Morgoth craved Arda MOST and came to it FIRST because he wanted to possess the Flame Imperishable. His failure to find it made him lash out at the others so that it would be denied to them as well. His hatred of Eru's children is so great because they were born with the Flame, and he was offended by the idea that they were worthier of it than him (because apparently the Flame Imperishable that gave him his own sapience escaped his notice, or something).

EDIT

And I don't think the Valar were hoarding the light, at least not knowingly. The Two lamps quite neatly covered Arda entirely. The Two Trees were their second attempt and it came out great, and Varda did put the stars in the sky. It's not like they were supposed to know that the Elves would wake up in Morogth's back yard instead of their own.
 
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The Valar sin is actually pretty simple and exactly what they rightly admonished Féanor for. They hoarded Light and did not use it for the benefit of the world at large. I would also add Turgon's fault: They loved too much the works of their hearts and hands and refused to leave them.

When Melkor destroyed the Lamps, their solution was to build their fortified paradise rather than fight him (Tulkas was already there so they could have won). When the Elves awoke, rather than leaving their fortified havens and dwelling among them, they found more convenient to lead them to Valinor, forsaking those who refused to the tender mercies of Sauron.

And what was the results of that? When Men awoke rather than finding elves to teach them, they found Morgoth, who was the only Valar present on mortal Arda.

Even after the Murder of the Trees, their solution was to fortify further rather than sally out. Whatever the Noldor had done, abandonning them and the Sindar who had done nothing in this mess to fight the most powerful being to have ever walked incarnate in Arda was a dick move.
 
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[x] Fight the Discord song to song

i wonder how the orcs will be changed i hope they become like orcs from other fiction big strong and green
 
ganonso said:
The Valar sin is actually pretty simple and exactly what they rightly Féanor for. They hoarded Light and did not use it for the benefit of the world at large. I would also add Turgon's fault: They loved too much the works of their hearts and hands and refused to leave them.

When Melkor destroyed the Lamps, their solution was to build their fortified paradise rather than fight him (Tulkas was already there so they could have won). When the Elves awoke, rather than leaving their fortified havens and dwelling among them, they found more convenient to lead them to Valinor, forsaking those who refused to the tender mercies of Sauron.

And what was the results of that? When Men awoke rather than finding elves to teach them, they found Morgoth, who was the only Valar present on mortal Arda.

Even after the Murder of the Trees, their solution was to fortify further rather than sally out. Whatever the Noldor had done, abandonning them and the Sindar who had done nothing in this mess to fight the most powerful being to have ever walked incarnate in Arda was a dick move.
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incidentally, I agree with all this. However, I also have to say that they didn't just do it for the commodity of it. They fought Melkor CONSTANTLY after the first entered Arda, and it led to thousands and thousands and possibly millions of years of the once white and flat surface of Arda being 100% magma and stuff blowing up. And they did go on their War for the Sake of the Elves as soon as they found out about them.

Incidentally...

ganonso said:
Even after the Murder of the Trees, their solution was to fortify further rather than sally out. Whatever the Noldor had done, abandonning them and the Sindar who had done nothing in this mess to fight the most powerful being to have ever walked incarnate in Arda was a dick move.
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I wonder if this is why Melian came over to Middle Earth instead of staying in Valinor. Sure it turned out horribly in the end, but for a while things were pretty great in Beleriand.
 
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