2024-AT-05: Staff and Evilchumlee Upheld

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Starting this one too, because I'm here and I can.

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2024-AT-05: Staff and Evilchumlee Upheld

@Kei I'm appealing this because... I don't even know what I said that triggered the infraction, no details were given, no link to a thread, no explanation at all. I can't even find the thread I would assume it comes from to mount any sort of defense. Honestly this is outrageous.
 
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forums.sufficientvelocity.com

2024-AT-05: Staff and Evilchumlee Upheld

@Kei I'm appealing this because... I don't even know what I said that triggered the infraction, no details were given, no link to a thread, no explanation at all. I can't even find the thread I would assume it comes from to mount any sort of defense. Honestly this is outrageous.
This is where Evilchumlee appeals a rule 1b infraction about the war in Israel.
There. Now people can tell the threads apart.
 
I have a little concern here that nobody seemed to care about the "I cannot tell what post or thread this infraction is attached to" thing, because that seems kind of worrying, given that this is someone who - as proven in the immediately previous tribunal does in fact know how infractions work as the infractee.

But I think the outcome should have been an uphold anyway, so ... I shrug. Be thoughtful and mindful when posting in a highly charged thread about a highly charged topic that is operating under heightened scrutiny rules, and if you don't, you're going to get bonked.
 
Eh, sometimes the system hiccups. I've had times when the link to the infracted post hasn't worked correctly. I've usually had to ask in that case.
 
I have a little concern here that nobody seemed to care about the "I cannot tell what post or thread this infraction is attached to" thing, because that seems kind of worrying, given that this is someone who - as proven in the immediately previous tribunal does in fact know how infractions work as the infractee.
It's something that's pretty easily corrected, is the thing. Arbitration will tell you where an infraction was applied. Subforum or thread bans can prevent a user from seeing their own posts or the context, but either Arbitration or Advocates can provide that text. So... it's hard to say that this should be a mitigating factor, or indeed taken into account in any way for the appeal, unless it results in a very long delay of proceedings because they need information they aren't being given.

Now, obviously Moderation should see that and go "We should be better in our communication." But it's not relevant to the appeal itself in most cases.

Anyway. Evilchumlee did post in the Ask an Advocate forum for this infraction, and I dithered heavily about advising them. I ultimately decided against, because I couldn't actually find any ability in myself to sincerely argue that this should have been a warning rather than an infraction. I don't need to be 100% on an appellant's side, I can be ambivalent or even privately lean against them, but there needs to be some part of me going "you know, they've got a point." Usually I can find it; possibly I'm just burned out on doing that for infractions stemming from the fucking Israel-Palestine thread. But I just didn't have it in me, this time.

(Also, shout out to @Potato Anarchy, whose ruling, I thought, was extremely well composed. I see a lot of Arbitrator rulings, and this is one of the best.)
 
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It's something that's pretty easily corrected, is the thing. Arbitration will tell you where an infraction was applied. Subforum or thread bans can prevent a user from seeing their own posts or the context, but either Arbitration or Advocates can provide that text. So... it's hard to say that this should be a mitigating factor, or indeed taken into account in any way for the appeal, unless it results in a very long delay of proceedings because they need information they aren't being given.

Well, Council seemed to complain that the appeal wasn't following Four Corners when it was ... apparently impossible for it to do so?

Which is a little awkward. Knowing that you can't read threads you're threadbanned from explains how it happens in a not-very-concerning way, but the fact Council complained is, hmm. not ideal?
 
Well, Council seemed to complain that the appeal wasn't following Four Corners when it was ... apparently impossible for it to do so?

Which is a little awkward. Knowing that you can't read threads you're threadbanned from explains how it happens in a not-very-concerning way, but the fact Council complained is, hmm. not ideal?
You're thinking of the other Evilchumlee tribunal, 2024-AT-04. This one had no such complaint, because at the appellant's request, Staff posted the content for which they had been infracted within the appeals thread.

2024-AT-04 did not involve a threadban, but as @Fey'lya mentioned in that tribunal's discussion thread:
(For what it's worth my original draft of the appeal had a link to the infracted post but it didn't survive the transition to thread. Mea culpa!)
So it was just a small error, which Fey'lya didn't get the chance to remedy because Evilchumlee chose to escalate to Council solo. Otherwise, I'm sure he would have posted the content in the Tribunal thread for easy of Councilors' reference.
 
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No, I'm thinking specifically of Ralson's post: 2024-AT-05: Staff and Evilchumlee Upheld
That might have just been my bad, sorry.

I don't think the uphold vote can be said to be because of that, though. I only brought that up incidentally, as a question, and I didn't even vote uphold.

It's theoretically possible that in another timeline I could have settled on an overturn and tried getting some other councilors onboard, but if so, that was derailed by the appellant jumping in every other post, not by a four corners issue. It's harder to pull a 12 Angry Men when the guy's right there doing cartwheels and calling people perverts.

(Also: probably not. Everybody else seemed pretty confident)
 
That might have just been my bad, sorry.

I don't think the uphold vote can be said to be because of that, though. I only brought that up incidentally, as a question, and I didn't even vote uphold.

It's theoretically possible that in another timeline I could have settled on an overturn and tried getting some other councilors onboard, but if so, that was derailed by the appellant jumping in every other post, not by a four corners issue. It's harder to pull a 12 Angry Men when the guy's right there doing cartwheels and calling people perverts.

(Also: probably not. Everybody else seemed pretty confident)

Oh, yeah, no, that's just ... a separate point.

I mean, I even said I think Uphold was the right decision here! I just think that procedural irregularities are also worth discussing, since tbh there's not a lot to say about the outcome that isn't either dunking or relitigation of arguments that quite frankly no thanks.
 
I think it would be better if he would of just got a warning instead of getting a 25 point infraction. I don't know why, but I think it would just be a better justification than just giving him 25 points.
 
I gather that the (once again artistically censored :mob:) letter K bit here was to put the argument for one tribunal in the other which is an inspired choice imo.
 
Has letter K been kidnapped or brainwashed, I appreciated her input in both threats, which is something I usually don't do.
 
You know when I said in the 2023 chumlee tribunal thread "Oh boy I look forward to all the 'I didn't advocate for genocide, but...' tribunals that are probly coming." I didn't expect the first to literally be chumlee AGAIN.
 
Checking the visible titles, here's the list of people with 3 or more tribunals:

Cloak&Dagger [5 Tribunals]: 2021-AT-12: Staff and Cloak&Dagger, 2021-AT-01: Staff and Cloak&Dagger, 2020-AT-12: Staff and Cloak&Dagger, 2016-AT-13: Staff and Cloak&Dagger II, 2015-AT-15: Staff and Cloak&Dagger
Evilchumlee [3 Tribunals]: 2024-AT-05: Staff and Evilchumlee, 2024-AT-04: Staff and Evilchumlee, 2023-AT-15: Staff and Evilchumlee
FortePlus [3 Tribunals]: 2023-AT-17: Staff and FortePlus, 2023-AT-08: Staff and FortePlus, 2019-AT-15: Staff and FortePlus
Jemnite [3 Tribunals]: 2023-AT-04: Staff and Jemnite, 2022-AT-17: Staff and Jemnite, 2021-AT-13: Staff and Jemnite
RoyalNoises [3 Tribunals]: 2022-AT-06: Staff and RoyalNoises, 2020-AT-20: Staff and RoyalNoises, 2019-AT-13: Staff and RoyalNoises
StarMaker764 [3 Tribunals]: 2022-AT-01: Staff and StarMaker764, 2021-AT-22: Staff and StarMaker764, 2021-AT-07: Staff and StarMaker764
Sumeragi [3 Tribunals]: 2020-AT-09: Staff and Sumeragi, 2020-AT-21: Staff and Sumeragi, 2020-AT-01: Staff and Sumeragi
Jackie [3 Tribunals]: 2016-AT-09: Staff and Jackie III, 2015-AT-08: Staff and Jackie II, 2015-AT-02: Staff and Jackie

Note: I didn't record uphelp/reduced/overturned, so not everyone is equal. But the question was number of tribunals...
 
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