inawarminister
I ♥ anime
[x] Yes
A Light from the Shadow (Tolkien CKII)
- Thread starter ganonso
- Start date
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
@Karmic Acumen Prophecies in Middle-Earth seem driven in part by auto-suggestion. News of the Oath and the Doom certalnly made the Sindar distrust the Noldor and the Sons of Féanor in particular. Still Mandos is allowed to pronounce Dooms and Féanor had just spilled the blood of his kin and tainted Aman just like Morgoth just did.
As for Thingol, my opinion is the guy was simply racist. He was the only lord of Beleriand to not take humans in his service and forbid them the borders of his realm.
The One Ring doesn't draw strength from the other Rings, it allow its wielders to command other Ringbearers and their work (that's actually an interesting question: Why would happen to the patches of Undying Lands made by Elrond and Galadriel if they lost their Rings without them being destroyed? The Black Gate and the foundations of Barad-Dur endured after all)
Without the Nineteen, the One would be of much less use and indeed the Elves forsaking the Seven and the Nine and the Three when Sauron put the One to his finger is in my mind why he dispersed the Sixteen among the Men and Dwarves. Still the One should still contain the greater part of Sauron's power and thus commands what he made.
It would surely be a much eviler-seeming item as the only thing it could master are the products of the Discord and perhaps Mordor itself but it wouldn't be useless. And of course in Sauron's possession it could enable him to be like in the Second Age near a Vala in strength and power.
As for Thingol, my opinion is the guy was simply racist. He was the only lord of Beleriand to not take humans in his service and forbid them the borders of his realm.
The One Ring doesn't draw strength from the other Rings, it allow its wielders to command other Ringbearers and their work (that's actually an interesting question: Why would happen to the patches of Undying Lands made by Elrond and Galadriel if they lost their Rings without them being destroyed? The Black Gate and the foundations of Barad-Dur endured after all)
Without the Nineteen, the One would be of much less use and indeed the Elves forsaking the Seven and the Nine and the Three when Sauron put the One to his finger is in my mind why he dispersed the Sixteen among the Men and Dwarves. Still the One should still contain the greater part of Sauron's power and thus commands what he made.
It would surely be a much eviler-seeming item as the only thing it could master are the products of the Discord and perhaps Mordor itself but it wouldn't be useless. And of course in Sauron's possession it could enable him to be like in the Second Age near a Vala in strength and power.
Aburg7
Just another Gundam(WIng) Pilot
- Location
- A land called Honahlee
That is a subject for debate, unlike Morgoth, Mandos didn't actively set things in motion to cause things to happen but when Thingol requests Beren to bring him the Simaril as a Bride Price it is specifically written that the he brought the Doom of Mandos onto Doriath.
When the Doom is referred to by Melian she refers to it as 'lay' upon the Noldor and lay the heaviest upon the sons of Feanor as if it were something physical. Also the Doom of Mandos is also referred to as a curse he placed upon the Noldor.
Dior, also knew of the Oath of the Sons of Feanor yet refused to yield it to them, knowing they were bound to attack. His Daughter Elwing when the Sons of Feanor are attacking for the Havens for the Silmaril, she chose to escape with said cursed jewel instead of her sons.
That too many crit fails just to be coincidence
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- Location
- The World
Or it's just the silmarils themselves. Or just the weight of the oath sworn directly on Eru's name. Or the elves being elves. Recall that Mandos spoke his prophecy only AFTER the massacre of the Teleri, and he didn't say anything at all about the Noldor who repented and gave up that crusade after that. Yet they dodged every other silmaril and oath related misfortune then and were seemingly forgiven. Feanor also didn't need the doom of Mandos to refuse having the silmarils broken after the darkening of Valinor, or to tar the Aratar with the same brush as Morgoth after their theft.
Whatever Tolkien may have intended, fact is that his oh so enlightened elves were quite simply obsessed with shiny things. To the point where they killed each other en masse, cursed or not.
I admit there is plenty to support your interpretation though, most notably the critfails of non-Noldo. I still think this interpretation of the Doom strays too close to the Marring though, given that it would basically turn the Doom of Mandos from a foretelling into a curse infinitely worse than any curse Morgoth laid at his worst, such as the case of the infamous Turin Turambar.
I think it safe to assume Tolkien didn't intend for that.
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ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
Thinking of it both the Doom of Mandos and the Curse of Hurin worked a bit the same way. The Noldor seemed pretty obsessed with the threat of treachery and they are definitively responsible of their downfall. Celegorn and Curunfin nearly turned all of Beleriand against the Féanorians while Gondolin and Nargothrond fell by the pride and foolishness of their ruler.
Samely the striking thing in the Children of Hurin is that Turin Turambar's curse is, if anything else, in his own actions. He chooses poorly all the steps of the way and even Glaurung's malice or the Black Sword's bitterness don't absolve him of all his wrongdoings (refusing to be judged by Thingol, advising the Nargothrondim of changing their way of wars because he found them not manly enough, wedding the girl he found in the woods under very questionable circumstances)
After all the Doom of Mandos simply announces
Samely the striking thing in the Children of Hurin is that Turin Turambar's curse is, if anything else, in his own actions. He chooses poorly all the steps of the way and even Glaurung's malice or the Black Sword's bitterness don't absolve him of all his wrongdoings (refusing to be judged by Thingol, advising the Nargothrondim of changing their way of wars because he found them not manly enough, wedding the girl he found in the woods under very questionable circumstances)
After all the Doom of Mandos simply announces
- We, the Valar, are pissed with Féanor and his sons
- We will not help you in your mad quest (The Sindar comment: What a change)
- Their blasphemous Oath will cause more griefs and suffering
- You know you are immortal but not deathless right, you shall be killed or die of grief or fade away as should be in Arda.
Aburg7
Just another Gundam(WIng) Pilot
- Location
- A land called Honahlee
It wasn't a massacre, the Teleri were not losing until Fingon came and reinforced Feanor, there were casualties on both sides.
- Location
- The World
Bloodbath then. Doesn't really matter to the topic much.
Aburg7
Just another Gundam(WIng) Pilot
- Location
- A land called Honahlee
It doesn't I agree, but most people tend to forget that Feanor didn't just march through them, he needed Fingon's help
- Location
- The World
Finally remembered something that caught my interest that was mentioned during this council.
How lovely. :-/
So it seems we may be seeing loads of terrible monsters, spawn of Ungoliant and maybe even Ungoliant herself at some point in the future, coming up from the lost, southern Dark Land.
How lovely. :-/
- Location
- Canada
[X] Yes
Healing part 1:
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
Healing part 1:
Prekk repressed a shudder in the damp air. Some was natural, he couldn't number his years for he had always lived deep under the mountains. His universe was Gashburtz and the depths of the mines. Other shamans had left under the cover of darkness, being exchanged with the Orcs of nearby Gundabad for those who wielded sorcery had been precious for the Orcs. How many times he had worshipped to a poorly-built idol, driving his flock to frenzy by recounting the fiery visions who haunted his nightmares? For nightmares had been all his nights until the Dark Fire who had changed had told them of the Lords of the West who had in their purviews each thing sweet. The transition had been easy to make. For the Mighty, for the Creator had always loathed the Orcs even as he made them, and such hatred sang in each of his tormented children's bones. They hated him too, for he and his servants were lords only of their torment and pain and fear were all the substance of their gifts. But still they had served for in their terror they had seen only the possibility of lash out against others, to take revenge for their slavery on the weak and the lame and those who walked under the sun.
They had all changed in the years after the battle at the gates. Their master had led them to fruitful lakes and banished hunger. He had taught Prekk and others about the Great Music, opened their ears to other sounds than the discordant clamor he had reached for his sorcery. He had taught them the name of other gods, gentler gods who still could hold hope for the Orcs. The change was not absolute of course, Prekk and the others knew it well. There were still nightmares of blood and darkness, and scenes of a sunken land and cruelties done and pains suffered. There were still urges to rip and tear and bite, to share the pain screaming in their veins. Those like Prekk who had lived already were more afflicted than the youths. Even if they had suffered the visions all their life, things had changed. There was no dark joy, no thrill at the thought of battle and sacrifice. The power who had made them raged to see itself refused. Pain spread to all his body now, either old scars or the indignities of age or wounds long thought closed who were now opened.
Pain had led him to accept his lord's offer and lay on a bed of stone while other lords and ladies busied around him. They had been surprised he knew some. Some reputations were great enough to spread even in the darkness of Moria. Of Elrond he knew little, but of his sons, fell Elladan and Elrohir who lived a life of adventure and errantry in the North, avenging on the Orcs of the Misty Mountains the pains of their mother, much was whispered in fear. Of Galadriel, fairer than tongue can name, things were not so heard but felt. None attuned to the rhythm of the world could be deaf to the clamor of Lorien so near the eastern borders. There was a power there who slept not and was always watching from the forest's eaves. The high lady had sadly smiled when she had heard that for that was what the Free People said of Sauron of Mordor who lived in the East in a secret abode surrounded by fire. Still she was there, after giving to the Lord of Rivendell a strange green stone bright and fair. Morianor lord and master of the Orcs of Moria was also there, not in the divine form he had worn in the first days where he had judged those too corrupted to go on, but the human mask even the Orcs found comforting. For to see the scars of ancient misdeed marked plain on the lord's face, was to hope one's own sins would one day be forgiven.
Master Elrond looked at him intently and, the elf-stone in his right hand shining like the sun between leaves, and began singing a song of healing. Prekk shivered and his mind ordered his body to move but to not avail. The power of the elf-lord was upon him, a song of knit flesh and bones set to right, of pain leaving place to rest, of spring returning and old wounds being laid to rest. Galadriel began in turn a song of bolstering, of white power raised against the shadows, of long life lived in Endor where winter comes, of sadness and joy, of love found and homes lost, of a son whose voice lived now in the waters and friends who awaited beyond the sundering seas. Morianor joined the chorus with a lamentation on the fate of the Orcs, a recollection of their sufferings and their woes and how they balanced against those they inflicted. Their song grew beyond hearing and was Prekk not so transfixed he would have shook under the power of the music. Stone and song were together and they shone on him like the rays of the forgotten sun.
Pain rose in answer, some mud hidden in his blood, the seed of these great captains who died not rose at the surface, claiming mastery over him. From his mouth, or perhaps from beyond rose a song of anger, a melody of torment spreading from throats to throats, from Maiar's whips to orcish knives, to Morgoth's eyes full of fire and ice to the humblest snaga's claws. It sung of shadow and flame unleashed on a prosperous kingdom, of a wife gone beyond healing on a ship of elven gray beyond the known world, of pride shattered in the ruins of kingdoms and of sins too grievous to atone. The song rose and fights, the work of one of the Power claiming it will not be undone so easily. It fights the threefold song and it seems the room sinks into clouds of darkness.
What does Morianor do?
[] Fight the Discord song to song
[] Take the burden of the pain into your being
Prekk repressed a shudder in the damp air. Some was natural, he couldn't number his years for he had always lived deep under the mountains. His universe was Gashburtz and the depths of the mines. Other shamans had left under the cover of darkness, being exchanged with the Orcs of nearby Gundabad for those who wielded sorcery had been precious for the Orcs. How many times he had worshipped to a poorly-built idol, driving his flock to frenzy by recounting the fiery visions who haunted his nightmares? For nightmares had been all his nights until the Dark Fire who had changed had told them of the Lords of the West who had in their purviews each thing sweet. The transition had been easy to make. For the Mighty, for the Creator had always loathed the Orcs even as he made them, and such hatred sang in each of his tormented children's bones. They hated him too, for he and his servants were lords only of their torment and pain and fear were all the substance of their gifts. But still they had served for in their terror they had seen only the possibility of lash out against others, to take revenge for their slavery on the weak and the lame and those who walked under the sun.
They had all changed in the years after the battle at the gates. Their master had led them to fruitful lakes and banished hunger. He had taught Prekk and others about the Great Music, opened their ears to other sounds than the discordant clamor he had reached for his sorcery. He had taught them the name of other gods, gentler gods who still could hold hope for the Orcs. The change was not absolute of course, Prekk and the others knew it well. There were still nightmares of blood and darkness, and scenes of a sunken land and cruelties done and pains suffered. There were still urges to rip and tear and bite, to share the pain screaming in their veins. Those like Prekk who had lived already were more afflicted than the youths. Even if they had suffered the visions all their life, things had changed. There was no dark joy, no thrill at the thought of battle and sacrifice. The power who had made them raged to see itself refused. Pain spread to all his body now, either old scars or the indignities of age or wounds long thought closed who were now opened.
Pain had led him to accept his lord's offer and lay on a bed of stone while other lords and ladies busied around him. They had been surprised he knew some. Some reputations were great enough to spread even in the darkness of Moria. Of Elrond he knew little, but of his sons, fell Elladan and Elrohir who lived a life of adventure and errantry in the North, avenging on the Orcs of the Misty Mountains the pains of their mother, much was whispered in fear. Of Galadriel, fairer than tongue can name, things were not so heard but felt. None attuned to the rhythm of the world could be deaf to the clamor of Lorien so near the eastern borders. There was a power there who slept not and was always watching from the forest's eaves. The high lady had sadly smiled when she had heard that for that was what the Free People said of Sauron of Mordor who lived in the East in a secret abode surrounded by fire. Still she was there, after giving to the Lord of Rivendell a strange green stone bright and fair. Morianor lord and master of the Orcs of Moria was also there, not in the divine form he had worn in the first days where he had judged those too corrupted to go on, but the human mask even the Orcs found comforting. For to see the scars of ancient misdeed marked plain on the lord's face, was to hope one's own sins would one day be forgiven.
Master Elrond looked at him intently and, the elf-stone in his right hand shining like the sun between leaves, and began singing a song of healing. Prekk shivered and his mind ordered his body to move but to not avail. The power of the elf-lord was upon him, a song of knit flesh and bones set to right, of pain leaving place to rest, of spring returning and old wounds being laid to rest. Galadriel began in turn a song of bolstering, of white power raised against the shadows, of long life lived in Endor where winter comes, of sadness and joy, of love found and homes lost, of a son whose voice lived now in the waters and friends who awaited beyond the sundering seas. Morianor joined the chorus with a lamentation on the fate of the Orcs, a recollection of their sufferings and their woes and how they balanced against those they inflicted. Their song grew beyond hearing and was Prekk not so transfixed he would have shook under the power of the music. Stone and song were together and they shone on him like the rays of the forgotten sun.
Pain rose in answer, some mud hidden in his blood, the seed of these great captains who died not rose at the surface, claiming mastery over him. From his mouth, or perhaps from beyond rose a song of anger, a melody of torment spreading from throats to throats, from Maiar's whips to orcish knives, to Morgoth's eyes full of fire and ice to the humblest snaga's claws. It sung of shadow and flame unleashed on a prosperous kingdom, of a wife gone beyond healing on a ship of elven gray beyond the known world, of pride shattered in the ruins of kingdoms and of sins too grievous to atone. The song rose and fights, the work of one of the Power claiming it will not be undone so easily. It fights the threefold song and it seems the room sinks into clouds of darkness.
What does Morianor do?
[] Fight the Discord song to song
[] Take the burden of the pain into your being
- Location
- The World
Well shit.
What do we do?
Morgoth's song was NEVER overpowered even in the beginning by all the other Ainur combined. Also, taking suffering on ourselves is quite Nienna-like, right?
On the other hand, this was supposed to start a change in the world and offering a path to victory that had before been unavailable. Maybe our regained memories will help? Or maybe hinder, and if we'd chosen the "unknown" option in the dream, we might have an unmarred tune to displace the Discord with.
Decisions decisions.
Maybe it's just a 50/50 choice in the end: fighting the discord basically leaves it up to the orcs themselves to cope with their suffering, helped by the new song in their blood. Taking the pain frees them from it, but permanently affects us?
What do we do?
Morgoth's song was NEVER overpowered even in the beginning by all the other Ainur combined. Also, taking suffering on ourselves is quite Nienna-like, right?
On the other hand, this was supposed to start a change in the world and offering a path to victory that had before been unavailable. Maybe our regained memories will help? Or maybe hinder, and if we'd chosen the "unknown" option in the dream, we might have an unmarred tune to displace the Discord with.
Decisions decisions.
Maybe it's just a 50/50 choice in the end: fighting the discord basically leaves it up to the orcs themselves to cope with their suffering, helped by the new song in their blood. Taking the pain frees them from it, but permanently affects us?
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[x] Take the burden of the pain into your being
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
To be fair, while the Discord was never overpowered in the Timeless Halls, the fragment of Morgoth present in each Orc can totally be overpowered.
This is not a method you can use often, even arriving to the stage where all that resists you is the essence that Morgoth dispersed among the Orcs (while he can't touch their féar, the hroar and the physical brain could host his corruptive essence) required the union of you a Maïa, of Galadriel the most powerful elf in Middle-Earth, of Elrond the best healer outside of Aman, and the Elessar a jewel built to enhance healing powers. That's not an easily repeateable process.
Choosing to fight the Song means you will fill Prekk with your combined Music and try to bolster the parts of his being who are untouched by Morgoth.
Taking the burden of his pain means you will, well, take the fragment of Morgoth with you. I will say it now, there is no risk of corruption doing it. The essence of Morgoth cannot abide compassion and thus will burns itself away.
In your body, well in your essence. That will hurt. That will hurt a lot. Jesus on the cross' level of agony. But well compassion is its own reward.
This is not a method you can use often, even arriving to the stage where all that resists you is the essence that Morgoth dispersed among the Orcs (while he can't touch their féar, the hroar and the physical brain could host his corruptive essence) required the union of you a Maïa, of Galadriel the most powerful elf in Middle-Earth, of Elrond the best healer outside of Aman, and the Elessar a jewel built to enhance healing powers. That's not an easily repeateable process.
Choosing to fight the Song means you will fill Prekk with your combined Music and try to bolster the parts of his being who are untouched by Morgoth.
Taking the burden of his pain means you will, well, take the fragment of Morgoth with you. I will say it now, there is no risk of corruption doing it. The essence of Morgoth cannot abide compassion and thus will burns itself away.
In your body, well in your essence. That will hurt. That will hurt a lot. Jesus on the cross' level of agony. But well compassion is its own reward.
[x] Take the burden of the pain into your being
It seems the most thematically appropriate.
It seems the most thematically appropriate.
always_confused
Perpetually unwanted
- Location
- SEA
[x] Fight the Discord song to song
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- Location
- Germany
[X] Fight the Discord song to song
Melkor's song is stronger than any one others, but here stands a little echo of it against the combined power of two of the greatest Elves left in Middle Earth and our own, who we know the Discord, its strenghts and weakness like none other.
If we can't even beat this tiny bit of Discord here, how would we stand against the songs of the Nazghul, of the Mouth and of Sauron himself?
Melkor's song is stronger than any one others, but here stands a little echo of it against the combined power of two of the greatest Elves left in Middle Earth and our own, who we know the Discord, its strenghts and weakness like none other.
If we can't even beat this tiny bit of Discord here, how would we stand against the songs of the Nazghul, of the Mouth and of Sauron himself?
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- Location
- Somewhere, probably Earth
[x] Fight the Discord song to song
Melkor's gone, and Sauron is only mimicking his tune. Poorly at that. What little remains of Morgoth's power is being used by someone equal to us.
We have our own Patron, who already did to us what we are trying to do here. And unlike Sauron, our patron approves our actions. If we take this path, one of restoration instead of sacrifice, we might just get a bit of guidance.
Melkor's gone, and Sauron is only mimicking his tune. Poorly at that. What little remains of Morgoth's power is being used by someone equal to us.
We have our own Patron, who already did to us what we are trying to do here. And unlike Sauron, our patron approves our actions. If we take this path, one of restoration instead of sacrifice, we might just get a bit of guidance.
- Location
- Reno
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Fight the Discord song to song
- Location
- The World
I notice you didn't say how long the pain will last.
Tricksy GMses.
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
Nope. The song raising in Prekk's body is of Morgoth and have no Sauronic influence. It's a mechanism of the taint that created the Orcs intended to fuck over any who would undo Morgoth's work. And you are lucky Prekk is only of Umaïa descent. The first generation of Orcs have protocols intended with Estë or Irmo in mind. Not Nienna though, Morgoth never understood the need to developp any counter-measure for her, the result of being Evil given form.
I notice you didn't say how long the pain will last.
Tricksy GMses.
Depends on the Piety roll: Crit Success means you suffer so much one of the Valar directly intervene.