Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
Remind me why we aren't using CounterBot?
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
[x] Where to live
- [x] Moon
-- [x] Only the Dark Side
[x] Profession
- [x] Professional Latecomer
[x] Meal
- [x] A Happy One
[x] Meal
- [x] A Sad One
-- [x] You have to be able to taste the tears, at least
[x] Profession
- [x] Banana Vendor
[x] Where to live
- [x] Banana Repulic
- [x] Moon
-- [x] Only the Dark Side
[x] Profession
- [x] Professional Latecomer
[x] Meal
- [x] A Happy One
[x] Meal
- [x] A Sad One
-- [x] You have to be able to taste the tears, at least
[x] Profession
- [x] Banana Vendor
[x] Where to live
- [x] Banana Repulic
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
This gives me the strangest urge to write a story about political intrigue between the Banana Republic of Kong and the Mushroom Kingdom.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
You can check the current tally at any time under 'thread tools' at the top-right of the page (on desktop) and in most cases it's the same as CounterBot except that you have to edit your vote to unvote (which is made easier by the fact that the tally tool links to every vote, not just the first one).
On balance it's roughly equivalent with CounterBot in terms of convenience (I do miss making [-] votes as a kind of statement, but real-time tallies are just plain nice) and is just a bit better integrated, so I don't really care one way or the other.
- Location
- Yes.
*slightly less panicking in Kagome*
- Location
- Australia
I really didn't want to get dragged back into this discussion. But asking us to define terms such as 'fort' and what it may be used for is pretty much asking us to derail any and every discussion with minutiae.
How about when we are not using the clearly defined and accepted definitions of a term we will make it explicit. otherwise use google if you are unclear on what a word means.
define:fort - Google Search
fort
a fortified building or strategic position.
Okay it sounds like they want to fortify this location to protect it during the ninja exam.
If you look at the resources we have available and decide the best we can do with something like MEW, a Pangolin combat engineer and 6 hours = a 1/10 fortification and that only confers +1 to scouting and defence. Ok at least its better then nothing. If we say we want to lay traps around it using our given resources then again confer bonuses or rolls for others to defeat and possibly increased successes to defeat in a way that does not notify the defenders.
What i do NOT expect is to be in a fortified position and to go from
1. 'Incoming Mist' scouted
2. What is your action?
3. TOO LATE it is inside your seal, you are surrounded, being drained, you fall back outside the fortification, you have 1m LOS in the middle of a swamp, you have separated from everyone you gathered in the fortified location previously, none of your traps activated.
4. LOL What a poor plan!!! fortifications or highground mean nothing to ninja.
- Location
- USA
The location was fortified and protected. It was also advertised to every other team. Our opponents, being reasonably clever, noted the existence of our fort and chose to attack along vectors that most fortifications aren't useful against. Whatever defensive bonuses we receive from our fortifications probably don't help deflect water vapor or sky-to-ground lightning, because you'd need more specialized defenses for those. Our traps were similarly negated by the fact that our opponents didn't bother trying to advance through them, instead remaining beyond their range (or, in the case of the Rock team, moving underground).
That's my read of the situation, anyway.
Re quantification of chakra:
(because no useful discussion will happen on our plans until the announcement hits)
So I think the very first thing we want to do is to verify or disprove that a technique will take the same person the same amount of chakra every time they do it. We could set up an experiment with two groups: a control group and a jutsu group (ideally we want 50+ members in each, which is pathetically bad by modern standards but we're working with small populations here). We have the jutsu group cast the same jutsu (let's say replacement) once, under the same conditions, and then we time how long it takes for Noburi to drain them unconscious. We then repeat that once they're back to full capacity 20+ times. For the control group we just time how long it takes to drain them, without them casting replacement. And then we should probably repeat that with different jutsu, to eliminate the possibility that there's something weird about replacement.
If the jutsu subjects have low ranges in their personal drain-times when accounting for any changes that occurred in the control group, then that's a point in favour of "Jutsu cost the same each time.", while if the ranges are large, then we know we're on the wrong track.
Thoughts?
(because no useful discussion will happen on our plans until the announcement hits)
So I think the very first thing we want to do is to verify or disprove that a technique will take the same person the same amount of chakra every time they do it. We could set up an experiment with two groups: a control group and a jutsu group (ideally we want 50+ members in each, which is pathetically bad by modern standards but we're working with small populations here). We have the jutsu group cast the same jutsu (let's say replacement) once, under the same conditions, and then we time how long it takes for Noburi to drain them unconscious. We then repeat that once they're back to full capacity 20+ times. For the control group we just time how long it takes to drain them, without them casting replacement. And then we should probably repeat that with different jutsu, to eliminate the possibility that there's something weird about replacement.
If the jutsu subjects have low ranges in their personal drain-times when accounting for any changes that occurred in the control group, then that's a point in favour of "Jutsu cost the same each time.", while if the ranges are large, then we know we're on the wrong track.
Thoughts?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
A major downside I see is that the units are "Seconds of draining at Noburi's current VD level", which means that we're going to have to run a recalibration every time Noburi levels VD, just so that the units of different experiments make sense in each other's contexts.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I'm 95% certain that Keiko would be able to gauge time accurately enough for us. We could combine it with training to find touch acceptable: She taps Noburi or Hazou (whichever) to indicate when draining should start.
That's not what I mean.
If Noburi drains 50 genin with a mean drain time (dt) of 3s, and then four months (and some levelling of VD) later he does a different experiment we would have to have him drain 50 genin again to see what his new mean dt is so that we can adjust the units of the second experiment as a multiple of the units of the first.
Like, if his new dt is 2s, and we call the units of the first experiment U1 and the units of the second experiment U2, then 1U1=1.5U2.
You see the problem? In order to keep the units consistent across experiments we have to make more work for ourselves.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
That's a fair point, although...
Alternatively, we could just have Noburi drain enough people of varying chakra capacities that, in combination with our experiments on the size of chakra pools relative to techniques, he could use to make accurate guesses at the chakra expenditure. It's not as scientific, but Noburi is capable of estimating relative-chakra-pool-size, so I figure if he drained enough people (particularly genin, academy students, and civilians), he might be able to tell those with larger pools apart.
e: As far as drain rate goes, his sheet says he can drain down to a minimum of 1 CP/s, so he can modify how much he drains at a time
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Well there's your first problem.
If we want numerical data (and I do) then we need to have a way to mathematically compare the units of experiments. And, while we can do that in the outlined protocol, it's kinda clunky and time-consuming and I'd prefer to find a better way if we can.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I mean, Noburi can drain at as low as 1 cp/s. So we can just ask him to drain at his slowest speed possible and go from there numerically.Well there's your first problem.
If we want numerical data (and I do) then we need to have a way to mathematically compare the units of experiments. And, while we can do that in the outlined protocol, it's kinda clunky and time-consuming and I'd prefer to find a better way if we can.
We would still have to do recalibrations to confirm in-universe that his "lowest speed" doesn't change as he gets more powerful. But in the long-term this would save effort, after it's been well established through years of marked improvements in his VD but no change in lowest speed that his lowest speed is a constant. Alright. That's an improvement.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Let's flip this around.
In an update, Jiraiya comes to you and says, "Hazō, I want you to build me a fort." He doesn't give you any further specifications.
You vote to carry out the request.
In the next update, Jiraiya comes over and says, "This fort sucks. Why didn't you just look up 'fort' in a dictionary and make one of those?"
Is he being reasonable?
The dictionary approach, in my experience, is the least useful and least convincing argument someone could make.
Now, why did we make the fort? Admittedly, there were good reasons for it, just not ninja one, and ninja wouldn't have assaulted the fort anyway, especially if it's prepared ground.
Instead, they drawn us out.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
On another track, we know that it's possible to make a seal that you push chakra into. We know that it's pathetically stupid to try and store the chakra but it shouldn't be a problem to have the seal immediately expend the chakra in measurable ways.
For instance, we could make a seal that takes in chakra and for every CP you put into it makes a chime sound and disperses the rest of that CP as light or something. We could give this seal to a ninja and ask them to put all their chakra into it, and record how many times it chimes.
...maybe.
We don't know enough about seal-failure theory to be sure on this so I'd check it with Jiraiya before going ahead.
- Location
- UK
I don't have any stake in the argument as a whole, but aside from the "dictionary" part... yes? Jiraiya's request implicitly includes "fit for purpose", and if Hazō doesn't know how to make a useful fort then continuing to try without asking for help feels like malicious compliance.
Pet peeve: a given sample size isn't intrinsically good, bad, large or small. It depends entirely on the study performed and the thing being measured. In this case the systematic error seems larger than the random error, so the sample size should suffice.
@eaglejarl @OliWhail @Velorien
Point of curiosity regarding the ability to Mist Drain through an Air Dome:
The ability to Mist Drain implies the ability to drain even when there discontinuities in the connecting water. The ability to drain through an Air Dome re enforces that.
Mist Drain comes about after a certain threshold of VD is achieved. This suggests that the there might be a threshold after which the user could just drain at (probably very short) range without needing mist or water at all.
Point of curiosity regarding the ability to Mist Drain through an Air Dome:
The ability to Mist Drain implies the ability to drain even when there discontinuities in the connecting water. The ability to drain through an Air Dome re enforces that.
Mist Drain comes about after a certain threshold of VD is achieved. This suggests that the there might be a threshold after which the user could just drain at (probably very short) range without needing mist or water at all.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Mist drain through air dome requires there to be mist in the air when the dome forms, which then gets stuck in the solidified air.