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Crusader Kings: A Byzantium Quest

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Hmm, I suppose I do have a biased view against feudalism, and I do remember reading that the Byzantine Empire incentivized politicking by making the high seats too powerful. But would affirming the devolution of power to the nobles really help make the Empire better? Concessions to the great families would erode the Empire's tax revenues, limit the agency of the Emperor (ie. us the players), and create powerful cliques that'd be very difficult to remove. Trying to engender the ideas of Separation of Power, or Rule by Consent, etc. are trying to solve some really long term problems while the Empire is on a backfoot.
 
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gutza1 said:
Actually the greatest cause of schism was the establishment of the HRE, which was seen as highly disrespectful to the actual surviving Roman Empire (which we are playing as), and a gross overreach of Papal authority.
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The HRE was an insult to pride.
The various political differences where but politics.

But the Filioque, that was actual theology. the most minute and context limited of theology, but theology nonetheless. It was actual cause for a break, everything else was par the course for an organisation of that size.

its good that its the sole contention of theology at this point, since mending it is actually feasible.
 
[X] Plan With Hindsight:
-[X] The Turks
-[X] The Archontopouloi
-[X] Tatikios
-[X] The Silk Quarter
-[X] The Norman Lords
-[X] The Army
 
No7sHere said:
What are our long term plans in regards to the church and stabilizing our territory?
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A++++-Dont get disposed of.
A-Anything to maintain territorial integrity for the next decade.
B-Reconcile with Rome ASAP.
C-Turn Constantinople into a biggy bank ASAP.
D-Get boatloads of Italian mercenaries stationed around the city.
E-Get the nobility high on privileges and stuck on their provinces, leaving us free to do important shit.

F-Start thinking on doing actual non-reactionary shit now that the apocalypse is averted.

any planning for more than a decade or half a decade is just pipe dreaming. we're surrounded by and swimming in existential threats
 
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Tally:
Adhoc vote count started by gutza1 on Sep 25, 2017 at 4:19 PM, finished with 123 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] Plan: Calculated Obligations
    [X] Plan With Hindsight:
    -[X] The Turks
    -[X] The Archontopouloi
    -[X] Tatikios
    -[X] The Silk Quarter
    -[X] The Norman Lords
    -[X] The Army
    [X] Plan Greek snake.
    -[X] The Turks
    -[X] The Archontopouloi
    -[X] Tatikios
    -[X] The Silk Quarter
    -[X] The Anatolian Lords
    -[X] The Empress
    [x] The Latins:
    [x] The Archontopouloi:
    [x] Tatikios:
    [x] The Doukai:
    [x] The Fall of The Rus:
    [x] The Army:
    [x] plan lets do things via italy
    [x] The Latins: lose some trade but it keeps the war of us
    [x] The Varangians: let babarians kill other of there kind
    [x] Constantine Dalassenos: trow a bone to mother
    [x] The Doukai: for the wife
    [x] The Norman Lords: lets see just how good his spy master is
    [x] The Empress: happy wife is happy rule
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HanEmpire said:
Hmm, I suppose I do have a biased view against feudalism, and I do remember reading that the Byzantine Empire incentivized politicking by making the high seats too powerful. But would affirming the devolution of power to the nobles really help make the Empire better? Concessions to the great families would erode the Empire's tax revenues, limit the agency of the Emperor (ie. us the players), and create powerful cliques that'd be very difficult to remove. Trying to engender the ideas of Separation of Power, or Rule by Consent, etc. are trying to solve some really long term problems while the Empire is on a backfoot.
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Crown revenues are almost entirely polls, dues, fees and tariffs on trade, commerce and movement at this point. The provinces provide some taxes, but their prime function is providing soldiers, not gold. in fact, most of the provincial revenues end up in the generals and provincial elites pockets anyways. by feudalising, we can divide the nobility and have them be even more at each others throat, as well as get them to like us for formalising what is done already. it also limits the powers of generals, which are our internal enemy No1. since now generals have to struggle with the provincial elites.

As such, it doesn't matter how much more privileges and rights we grant the nobility, so long as the actually important stuff, like the levying and collection of tolls and dues, is crown based.

And it's not like "nobility" is a unified institution. Hell, the western kings made their nobility weaker by expanding it. since a nobleman's no1 enemy is other noblemen, the more you have of them the less you need to worry about them. and the more nobles there is the more layers of nobility there is, which makes them even weaker vis a vis the crown.
 
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gutza1 said:
Tally:
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This tally is wrong because it doesn't include the moratorium and includes illegal votes. This is a correct tally:
Vote Tally : Crusader Kings: A Byzantium Quest | Page 8 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 190-237]
##### NetTally 1.9.7
[x] Plan: Calculated Obligations
No. of Votes: 6
Arthellion
ctulhuslp
DkArthas
maximillian
Random Member
StarkDemise
[X] Plan With Hindsight:
-[X] The Turks
-[X] The Archontopouloi
-[X] Tatikios
-[X] The Silk Quarter
-[X] The Norman Lords
-[X] The Army
No. of Votes: 5
Plan: ◈With Hindsight:
Artemis1992
Chief18753
Ghostdevil
Khaine
Oshha
[X] Plan Greek snake.
-[X] The Turks
-[X] The Archontopouloi
-[X] Tatikios
-[X] The Silk Quarter
-[X] The Anatolian Lords
-[X] The Empress
No. of Votes: 5
Plan: ◈Greek snake.
Falliant
HanEmpire
No7sHere
Qeqre
StellarMonarch
[x] plan lets do things via italy
[x] The Latins: lose some trade but it keeps the war of us
[x] The Varangians: let babarians kill other of there kind
[x] Constantine Dalassenos: trow a bone to mother
[x] The Doukai: for the wife
[x] The Norman Lords: lets see just how good his spy master is
[x] The Empress: happy wife is happy rule
No. of Votes: 1
Redhead222
Total No. of Voters: 17
 
The thing is need to change the fact that most of our taxes disappear in the pockets of our governors not make it even easier for them.
 
No7sHere said:
The thing is need to change the fact that most of our taxes disappear in the pockets of our governors not make it even easier for them.
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if we are a normal state where the rule of law dictates so, then yes, but late medieval Byzantium?

We are a pathetically weak and fragile polity held together by the barest of hair strands and copious amounts of God-given luck. Surrounded in every direction by polities that could very much wipe us out at a hats drop. Our pretensions to might and significance are built on the shoulders of our ancestors and nothing more. to pretend otherwise is to invite early death.
You do not crack down on a practice so old and ingrained its basically Law by custom at this point. Not until you literally have no other threats and concerns, or a damn miracle of a good opportunity presents itself. if you do, its A- get disposed of, or B- civil war ahoy! And then comes the invader.

hell, feudalising actually gives us a great opportunity for turning this deficiency into a benefit.
 
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Oshha said:
This tally is wrong because it doesn't include the moratorium and includes illegal votes. This is a correct tally:
Vote Tally : Crusader Kings: A Byzantium Quest | Page 8 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 190-237]
##### NetTally 1.9.7
[x] Plan: Calculated Obligations
No. of Votes: 6
Arthellion
ctulhuslp
DkArthas
maximillian
Random Member
StarkDemise
[X] Plan With Hindsight:
-[X] The Turks
-[X] The Archontopouloi
-[X] Tatikios
-[X] The Silk Quarter
-[X] The Norman Lords
-[X] The Army
No. of Votes: 5
Plan: ◈With Hindsight:
Artemis1992
Chief18753
Ghostdevil
Khaine
Oshha
[X] Plan Greek snake.
-[X] The Turks
-[X] The Archontopouloi
-[X] Tatikios
-[X] The Silk Quarter
-[X] The Anatolian Lords
-[X] The Empress
No. of Votes: 5
Plan: ◈Greek snake.
Falliant
HanEmpire
No7sHere
Qeqre
StellarMonarch
[x] plan lets do things via italy
[x] The Latins: lose some trade but it keeps the war of us
[x] The Varangians: let babarians kill other of there kind
[x] Constantine Dalassenos: trow a bone to mother
[x] The Doukai: for the wife
[x] The Norman Lords: lets see just how good his spy master is
[x] The Empress: happy wife is happy rule
No. of Votes: 1
Redhead222
Total No. of Voters: 17
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QM said he would not count votes posted before the moratorium so the tally doesn't have to count illegal votes.

Regardless of the lateness, I will now post what I think we should do.
 
Telamon said:
The Imperial Themes:
  • The Theme of Dyracchion, ruled by Strategos Nikephoros Synadenos.
    • Military Command: 2,516 Themata
    • Loyalty: Questionable.
  • The Theme of Adrianople, ruled by Strategos Andronikos Doukas.
    • Military Command: 1,485 Themata.
    • Loyalty: Trustworthy.
  • The Theme of Epirus, ruled by Strategos Nikephoros Palaiologos
    • Military Command: 2,330 Themata.
    • Loyalty: Questionable.
  • The Theme of Turnovo, ruled by Strategos Mikhael Doukas.
    • Military Command: 2,112 Themata.
    • Loyalty: Trustworthy.
  • The Theme of Bononia, ruled by Strategos Mikhael Taronites.
    • Military Command: 1,400 Themata.
    • Loyalty: Loyal.
  • The Theme of Krounoi, ruled by Strategos Aaron Kometopoulos.
    • Military Command: 1,291 Themata.
    • Loyalty: Trustworthy
  • The Theme of Athens, ruled by Strategos Nikephoros Melissenos.
    • Military Command: 2, 563 Themata.
    • Loyalty: Loyal.
  • The Theme of Achaia, ruled by Strategos Alexios Murzuphlos
    • Military Command: 2,007 Themata.
    • Loyalty: Questionable.
  • The Theme of Naxos, ruled by Strategos Demetrios Makrembolites.
    • Military Command: 3,325 Themata.
    • Loyalty: Unsatisfied.
  • The Theme of Crete, ruled by Strategos Micheal Ouranos.
    • Military Command: 500 Themata
    • Naval Command: 58 ships
    • Loyalty: Loyal.
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Hum...
Adrianople and Turnovo(the two demesnes held by our wife's family) are directly adjacent to the capital province.
Dyracchion and Epirus are mostly Albania. With a tiny bit of NW Greece.
Naxos is an island southeast of Athens. And I can't find Achaia at the moment.
I can't find Achaia on the map, though I suppose it relates to the Achaean?
Likewise, Crete is Crete, Athens is Athens and while there are multiple possibilities for Bononia, the character seems to be an Armenian.

Between Adrianople and Turnovo, they have 3.597 Themata. Which is more than the strong(and unhappy) vassal of Naxos.
Their support will be very helpful in keeping a grip on the throne. Likewise, their support will be very helpful for enemies seeking to overthrow us.

Western Greece and/or islander Greece will probably dislike Latin merchants the most. And eastern realms would obviously not approve of Turkish support.
There seems to be a trend of our weaker/nearer vassals being the most loyal to us while the strongest/more isolated are the least loyal. Decentralizing the state could be a threat to the smaller vassals and lose us their support/existence as the bigger vassals might subjugate them in due time.

Something to consider at least.
 
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