Econ Expansion is "growth potential," yes. Our primary economic sources - the Expand Economy action and refugees - both use up available land. The trick is, two True Cities means we get most of that land back when we build stuff as people move from rural areas to urban ones, so most of our actions "recycle" land rather than committing it permanently to support whatever we've built.
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Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Aquaducts refund their full econ investment while we have 2 True Cities, so yeah, Aquaduct = +4 LTE.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Potential for growth and room to grow as I understand it. A lot of actions basically trade Economy for Expansion and vice versa, with the true cities we got.
Whoops.
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Speed
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[X] [Boat] New design: Speed
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
- Location
- Austria
"Song of Angry Men" intensifies
Also, about the refugees (yes, yes, again).
Thing is, AN has specifically stated that we will need to take some hard choices to get and take good traits.
To get Greated Justice, we risked pissing off warriors via reminding them that reveling in bloodshed is not really a good thing and then via pulling back our soldiers from conquered HK village because it was a right thing to do, even if unprofitable.
To get Love of Wisdom, we...hoo boy. We dumped a ton of resources into lucky Iron breakthrough, then we took the hardest possible challenge, then we gambled via betting our goddamn vaccination.
To get Cosmopolitan Acceptance, we risked mass starvation and/or riot of our people in their early days to feed the utter strangers, then we risked contact with ~foreigners~ gifting them away techs like teaching them how to farm because we could (and because those morons would have fucked up ecology otherwise, but still).
Then we *gifted away* the technology of cure for cholera, for which our people bled (or shat because cholera) and died on surgical tables. We did not know in whose hands it would end up, we knew that it would diminish the advantage in population that sanitation and salination gave us, but we sacrificed those potential advantages.
The point is, to get value, we must act in accordance to said value, even when it is hard - or rather, especially when it is hard, because it is not really a big deal to act all nice when you have stuff to spare, but only in the true crucible the mettle of those values gets truly known.
Soo, I am pretty sure that taking in as much people as possible (or even moderate amount, but it does not risk things that much so the narrative value of "even in this dire situation Ymaryn are charitable and generous" is not there that much) is more valuable towards improving CA (and probably Justice because this time it was, in part, our fault) now than when it is easy for us.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's fine and all, but those values still have to be worth it. I think it's better to exist and not have Cosmopolitan Acceptance than it is to accept the risk of falling apart, and we're not just in a tough spot but on the knife's edge of ruin.
I'm voting for 'they should help more' but I don't see how 'they should take in as many as they could' is at all worth it here.
- Location
- The People's Saltern
Some questions for you.
@Academia Nut What does "lose the capacity to react" mean? Do we lose certain midturn options (Wildcat (not that we'll take it), midturn Main, etc.) or does it skip the midturn entirely? Does it affect any extra choices in the main turn?
@Academia Nut This is a different situation than the last time this question was asked. We're about to finish the Sacred Forest Renewal Megaproject, we don't have a Heroic Admin Leader to deal with centralization issues and we're facing a possible civilization collapse. Would the provinces be willing to risk [Sec] Enforce Justice (+1-3 Centralization) if there is a chance of government paralysis from hitting red centralization?
@Academia Nut What does "lose the capacity to react" mean? Do we lose certain midturn options (Wildcat (not that we'll take it), midturn Main, etc.) or does it skip the midturn entirely? Does it affect any extra choices in the main turn?
@Academia Nut This is a different situation than the last time this question was asked. We're about to finish the Sacred Forest Renewal Megaproject, we don't have a Heroic Admin Leader to deal with centralization issues and we're facing a possible civilization collapse. Would the provinces be willing to risk [Sec] Enforce Justice (+1-3 Centralization) if there is a chance of government paralysis from hitting red centralization?
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
People why are you voting to bring back out troops from the lowlands,!?
- Location
- Austria
-2.5 + 1 (current) + 1 (megaproject payout) = -0.5, so we end up at either 0 or -1.
The only possible way for us to hit -3 Stability (which is the almost-breaking point) would be to take a stability hit from climate change and to take a stability hit from Divine Stewards if we lose on defensive.
And taking 6-8 Econ worth of refugees is bound to shave off at least a couple of Econ points from would-be attacker, making a probability of military loss lower.
(Besides, military loss would mean losing monopoly on ironworking, which would fuck us over anyway, so...)
Or even more than a couple, because, since we probably are the most populous state in the region, 1-2 Econ for us is probably 3-4 for them...although that's a pure speculation.
@Academia Nut ,can we have an estimate of how much econ numbers of ours differ, if they do, from those of other polities?
Also, could you please chime in, if possible, on whether I am wrong or right in the guessing that taking refugees when it is hard is more 'valuable' towards progress of CA?
But, like, overall point is, it is worth it. Granted, it is a risk, compared to -1.5, which is legit 100% safe (which is why I am incredulous about people who voted the minimal option and understand the caution of those who voted -1.5), but that's the reason I am taking it, more or less - if we are not willing to risk for our values, we clearly do not really value them.
For example, we have acquired Lord's Loyalty specifically because we were willing to risk literally everything to protect our own. If we lost - and against double nomadic heroes it was a distinct possibility - that would be more or less the end; but we've thrown everything into the fight, and got rewarded for it.
So, all in all: it is a risk, but one I think is worth taking.
Of course, inb4 AN chimes in and says I am all wrong.
To avoid losing Redhills and the iron mines and miners and smelters.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Because we know an attack is incoming, and Rulwyna's estimate that the smart place to hit would be Redhills is accurate. Phygrif, if informed, is likely to agree-hence why there's no issues sending forces back home to protect the mines even when he's on the verge of bursting into the high temple of Xohyr and chopping heads off.
- Location
- Australia
Also to ensure a greater chance of the Xohyssiri surviving.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
... Last I checked we have defensive walls/garrisons and the fastest messenger system due to horses, and heroic war leader. we don't need to pull back.
- Location
- Central Europe
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Changing vote on Mill and Refugee.
I think we won't be able to do: [] Main New Trails X2 + [] Balanced next turn. My best guess is that we will have to at least use the secondary for war. So, if we are likely going to stay in Restauration I feel that we need Econ more than Stab right now.
Hopefully the worst case scenario is that we lose 3 Stability (-2 from Refugee, -1 from Plague, -1 from War, +1 from Megaproject). If that happens I would want to be at Cent 3, so I changed that too.
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Changing vote on Mill and Refugee.
I think we won't be able to do: [] Main New Trails X2 + [] Balanced next turn. My best guess is that we will have to at least use the secondary for war. So, if we are likely going to stay in Restauration I feel that we need Econ more than Stab right now.
Hopefully the worst case scenario is that we lose 3 Stability (-2 from Refugee, -1 from Plague, -1 from War, +1 from Megaproject). If that happens I would want to be at Cent 3, so I changed that too.
- Location
- New Zealand
I think ctulhuslp is right. Shit's hitting the fan, which means it's the best time to stick to our guns and make the hard and risky decisions. Yeah, there's a chance we break, but that just means if we do we'll figure out what happens in the case of a civil war. Remember when we thought red econ was bad? It might actually double as a cleanse and be helpful in getting rid of some of our deep seated issues. So I'm willing to risk more, changing my vote.
[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
The troops are doing fine, I think they'll finish faster if we don't try and distract them.
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
Boats for shiny.
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
I like innovation as much as the next gal, but want to keep at least 2 Cent and this action may or may not give more power to the mafia.
[X] [WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)
Make our March happy, strengthen the power of friendship, and get a new shiny all in one go? Yes please.
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
TREES!
[X] [Refugee] They should take in as many as they could (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, overcrowding)
Helping people is our jam, let's help them! We also caused this particular mess, don't forget.
[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
The troops are doing fine, I think they'll finish faster if we don't try and distract them.
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
Boats for shiny.
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
I like innovation as much as the next gal, but want to keep at least 2 Cent and this action may or may not give more power to the mafia.
[X] [WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)
Make our March happy, strengthen the power of friendship, and get a new shiny all in one go? Yes please.
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
TREES!
[X] [Refugee] They should take in as many as they could (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, overcrowding)
Helping people is our jam, let's help them! We also caused this particular mess, don't forget.
The biggest refuge choice has like no chance of winning by the way, while the non-minimalist choice is only 8 voters behind the winning one.
- Location
- Germany
Soo guys
Given that the next turn will obviously be a Double Main Trails turn have you considered what to do after that, if we don't get another mid turn which drops our Cent again?
Personally I would suggest a Integration/Diplo turn via
Main Salt Gift (to partially offset the Diplo-loss)
Main Integrate Colony - Hatvalley (reason that it would be the first to break away)
Or Spam Boats to at least somewhat fix our interconnectivity to and build up our Diplo to take a bite out of both of our colonies
Given that the next turn will obviously be a Double Main Trails turn have you considered what to do after that, if we don't get another mid turn which drops our Cent again?
Personally I would suggest a Integration/Diplo turn via
Main Salt Gift (to partially offset the Diplo-loss)
Main Integrate Colony - Hatvalley (reason that it would be the first to break away)
Or Spam Boats to at least somewhat fix our interconnectivity to and build up our Diplo to take a bite out of both of our colonies
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Yeah... we definitely should switch to Trade soon-ish, as time allows. The more trade missions we send to them the more likely it is that we can come to an accord that assimilates them or the like. It will also bend us some away from militarism.
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- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
[X][War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X][Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X][Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X][WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X][Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X][Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[X][Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X][Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X][WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X][Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X][Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well if we are attacked we should get a free switch to offense policy. And what our econ is going to be at next update means if we do go offense we will have at least one province action to raise economy, probably more. So switching is not going to be horrific.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Well, assuming our civilization doesn't EXPLODE IN A MASSIVE FIREBALL , yes, we want to double main trails.
What I'm really hoping for is that the double main will evolve trails in a way that stops spamming Centralization. If not, let's just drop new provinces, maybe via Expansion policy, and do trails again.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
defensive policy would be better if everyone attacks us mind you.
I'm going to say no, we should bite the bullet and distribute land instead. New provinces has to wait until we've finished the Palace, except maybe the one to link up to the lowlands vassal.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
All of this assumes that you're taking into account every possible factor and that as long as we make it to next turn in decent shape we'll get through okay. I'm not convinced of either of those and thus value each point of stability quite highly. I think we need all the Stability we can get and just enough Econ to do what needs doing, rather than all the Econ we can get and just enough Stability to not collapse with bad rolls from known problems.