Oh wow, everything is going tits up.

[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defendRedhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Size
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to createrefugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defendRedhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

I'm not entirely sure about this vote; there are good arguments for variations. Too much uncertainty.

What I will say is, if double main trails next turn puts us back up to 5 Centralization, that's a great problem to have. Much better than total civilization implosion.

The refugee intake is basically a preemptive military strike.
 
You know I am afraid of the fact that once the main army leaves the Red banners and Phygriff get attacked by the xoh, the ts and the hk and result in them acquiring iron.
 
By the way, it's a bit unfair that the HK and TS spend generations fighting the Xoh, even hiring us to help, and then as soon as we decide to do the same, that's apparently a reason for them to join up and try to wipe us out.
 
We can only kick defensive wars. This is an offensive war.

  • Lord's Loyalty increases the chance of breakaway if you don't send support, but decreases it if you do. Your vassals are highly likely to break away without support. Given that they have spent several years with blacksmiths milling among them to maintain the Red Banner's gear...
  • Not likely, but your traits are organized to be susceptible to a failure cascade
  • Yes, and to your vassals this is now defensive
  • Loss of prestige, small chance of stability loss from divine stewards
  • Loss of prestige, definite stability loss from divine stewards
  • Not yet
  • For food they are fighting in their own territory, but for metals they have to trade and they are boxed in. The only people they could get bronze from would be the Thunder Speakers and Highlanders



They both seem to be stalemated with each other.

if the war counts as Defensive for our vassal can we kick it?
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
By the way, it's a bit unfair that the HK and TS spend generations fighting the Xoh, even hiring us to help, and then as soon as we decide to do the same, that's apparently a reason for them to join up and try to wipe us out.


How? We have no signed contract with them, no shared aristocracy, no shared religion and culture. We were pure allies of convience and circumstance, the alliance is null and void as soon as convenience is met. We don't owe them, and they definitely do not owe us.
 
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Where Blue comes to a conclusion that will be mostly ignored

Though to be fair, putting this down during the voting period probably isn't doing me any favors.

So, I've been doing some thinking about what hereditary means in this quest, and I've sort of boiled down our power towards three areas. Then managed to get completely off the track and went down a controversial rabbit hole I was trying to avoid.

Rulers: How many people are in power.
Legitimacy: Why a person is in power.
Passing On: How someone is determined to be put into power.

Our current ruler group is of interest, but not importance to our situation. It's one person, supported by a group of people doing their best to help them rule. In theory, at least. Again, not important to the discussion.

How power is passed on is important, but not what I want to focus on. To note, here it is an election for the next person to rule. Possibly a bit complex, and in many instances people, even the ruling oligarchs, may not know who they're really voting for because distances are so great. Of note, and of some importance, but...

Our legitimacy is borderline non-existent.

"Why is someone the king?"
"Because he was elected."
"I didn't elect him!"

The fundamental problem we are having here is that we our using modern sensibilities to treat the law as if it is it's own entity, separate from the king. That's not what it is, though. The law is seen as an extension of the King's word, part of his will. The king is above the law. There exists no method of trying a king. In order to get to this ideal we take as natural, it would likely take several libraries, a lot of time, and the kicking off of a large scale scholar movement. Something certainly interesting, but it would likely take a great number of social reforms to actually create this concept.

Another possibility would be a meritocracy of some sort, but we will likely need a much better education system before we attempt to pull that off. I'd say it is closer than a flat out 'rule of the law' type of situation though.

The third possibility I can think of, is the one we have the easiest access too. Divine Right. That is, 'he's king because the gods said so.'

Now, this can come in many forms, either through some convoluted ritual, perhaps some very primitive form of meritocracy, and of course the simple 'he's king because of his bloodline.'

Each one has its pros and cons, much of it would depend on how involved we want to get our mysticism cast, though. Our last choice would have had them very involved. Hereditary is very much one of the most fire and forget forms, for better or worse, and would really just need a ritual done for each king to show that they've been properly blessed from the spirits.

Considering this thread's... insistence on complete practicality and keeping religion away from stuff, I expect that last idea to be poorly received, but I feel we're going to be in for some serious hardships if we aim for one of the more advanced ones when we are clearly not socially advanced enough to handle them yet, and unlikely to be so in the near future.

Oh, as to why this is important?

Why should the north listen to us? If they constantly get marginalized, their only interests are gone, and if they get enough strength to stand on their own, they will! One of the biggest things that is likely making the north think they can do this is the Stallion Tribes having their own martial score. Now, if we take that away there will still be local martial scores in various areas, so it's not a complete solution, but if we can afford the wealth pulling the martial out of the Stallions and putting it into a mercenary group that we just park in Valleyhome for three turns would likely help for awhile. It will ultimately be a stalling tactic, though.

Edit: Oh, and palace might help, depending on if and how it increases our legitimacy. Not too sure there though.
 
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Guys? They don't actually want the mine and afaict we don't really need it. Turn the problem around: can we just pull out of that mine? Just take our equipment and retreat to somewhere more defensible?

Take an econ hit but keep our King doing what he does best.
 
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Where Blue comes to a conclusion that will be mostly ignored

Though to be fair, putting this down during the voting period probably isn't doing me any favors.

So, I've been doing some thinking about what hereditary means in this quest, and I've sort of boiled down our power towards three areas. Then managed to get completely off the track and went down a controversial rabbit hole I was trying to avoid.

Rulers: How many people are in power.
Legitimacy: Why a person is in power.
Passing On: How someone is determined to be put into power.

Our current ruler group is of interest, but not importance to our situation. It's one person, supported by a group of people doing their best to help them rule. In theory, at least. Again, not important to the discussion.

How power is passed on is important, but not what I want to focus on. To note, here it is an election for the next person to rule. Possibly a bit complex, and in many instances people, even the ruling oligarchs, may not know who they're really voting for because distances are so great. Of note, and of some importance, but...

Our legitimacy is borderline non-existent.

"Why is someone the king?"
"Because he was elected."
"I didn't elect him!"

The fundamental problem we are having here is that we our using modern sensibilities to treat the law as if it is it's own entity, separate from the king. That's not what it is, though. The law is seen as an extension of the King's word, part of his will. The king is above the law. There exists no method of trying a king. In order to get to this ideal we take as natural, it would likely take several libraries, a lot of time, and the kicking off of a large scale scholar movement. Something certainly interesting, but it would likely take a great number of social reforms to actually create this concept.

Another possibility would be a meritocracy of some sort, but we will likely need a much better education system before we attempt to pull that off. I'd say it is closer than a flat out 'rule of the law' type of situation though.

The third possibility I can think of, is the one we have the easiest access too. Divine Right. That is, 'he's king because the gods said so.'

Now, this can come in many forms, either through some convoluted ritual, perhaps some very primitive form of meritocracy, and of course the simple 'he's king because of his bloodline.'

Each one has its pros and cons, much of it would depend on how involved we want to get our mysticism cast, though. Our last choice would have had them very involved. Hereditary is very much one of the most fire and forget forms, for better or worse, and would really just need a ritual done for each king to show that they've been properly blessed from the spirits.

Considering this thread's... insistence on complete practicality and keeping religion away from stuff, I expect that last idea to be poorly received, but I feel we're going to be in for some serious hardships if we aim for one of the more advanced ones when we are clearly not socially advanced enough to handle them yet, and unlikely to be so in the near future.

Oh, as to why this is important?

Why should the north listen to us? If they constantly get marginalized, their only interests are gone, and if they get enough strength to stand on their own, they will! One of the biggest things that is likely making the north think they can do this is the Stallion Tribes having their own martial score. Now, if we take that away there will still be local martial scores in various areas, so it's not a complete solution, but if we can afford the wealth pulling the martial out of the Stallions and putting it into a mercenary group that we just park in Valleyhome for three turns would likely help for awhile. It will ultimately be a stalling tactic, though.

Edit: Oh, and palace might help, depending on if and how it increases our legitimacy. Not too sure there though.



Just join the fuedalists camp already, you can get a whiskey and lamb ration to help with everything is ignored situation.



Or join the libertarians, I think they just have one guy and a coconut with a straw hat.
 
Where Blue comes to a conclusion that will be mostly ignored

Though to be fair, putting this down during the voting period probably isn't doing me any favors.

So, I've been doing some thinking about what hereditary means in this quest, and I've sort of boiled down our power towards three areas. Then managed to get completely off the track and went down a controversial rabbit hole I was trying to avoid.

Rulers: How many people are in power.
Legitimacy: Why a person is in power.
Passing On: How someone is determined to be put into power.

Our current ruler group is of interest, but not importance to our situation. It's one person, supported by a group of people doing their best to help them rule. In theory, at least. Again, not important to the discussion.

How power is passed on is important, but not what I want to focus on. To note, here it is an election for the next person to rule. Possibly a bit complex, and in many instances people, even the ruling oligarchs, may not know who they're really voting for because distances are so great. Of note, and of some importance, but...

Our legitimacy is borderline non-existent.

"Why is someone the king?"
"Because he was elected."
"I didn't elect him!"

The fundamental problem we are having here is that we our using modern sensibilities to treat the law as if it is it's own entity, separate from the king. That's not what it is, though. The law is seen as an extension of the King's word, part of his will. The king is above the law. There exists no method of trying a king. In order to get to this ideal we take as natural, it would likely take several libraries, a lot of time, and the kicking off of a large scale scholar movement. Something certainly interesting, but it would likely take a great number of social reforms to actually create this concept.

Another possibility would be a meritocracy of some sort, but we will likely need a much better education system before we attempt to pull that off. I'd say it is closer than a flat out 'rule of the law' type of situation though.

The third possibility I can think of, is the one we have the easiest access too. Divine Right. That is, 'he's king because the gods said so.'

Now, this can come in many forms, either through some convoluted ritual, perhaps some very primitive form of meritocracy, and of course the simple 'he's king because of his bloodline.'

Each one has its pros and cons, much of it would depend on how involved we want to get our mysticism cast, though. Our last choice would have had them very involved. Hereditary is very much one of the most fire and forget forms, for better or worse, and would really just need a ritual done for each king to show that they've been properly blessed from the spirits.

Considering this thread's... insistence on complete practicality and keeping religion away from stuff, I expect that last idea to be poorly received, but I feel we're going to be in for some serious hardships if we aim for one of the more advanced ones when we are clearly not socially advanced enough to handle them yet, and unlikely to be so in the near future.

Oh, as to why this is important?

Why should the north listen to us? If they constantly get marginalized, their only interests are gone, and if they get enough strength to stand on their own, they will! One of the biggest things that is likely making the north think they can do this is the Stallion Tribes having their own martial score. Now, if we take that away there will still be local martial scores in various areas, so it's not a complete solution, but if we can afford the wealth pulling the martial out of the Stallions and putting it into a mercenary group that we just park in Valleyhome for three turns would likely help for awhile. It will ultimately be a stalling tactic, though.

Edit: Oh, and palace might help, depending on if and how it increases our legitimacy. Not too sure there though.


More seriously though, your idea of hiring mercs in Valleyhome is solid, it should allow us to develop the concept of king by the will of his armies, which whilst not the best, is still a step in the right direction.
 
Note, it's possible that the alliance will actually target the lowlands, and pulling some of our forces back will cause the king to fail in his mission, maybe even be captured and executed.

However, taking the long-term view, that seems like an acceptable risk. If the HK and TS drive us out of the lowlands, maybe they can calm down and go back to thinking we're not so scary. We didn't really want the land anyway.
 
You know what, I'll just go ahead and

[x] [War] Let the king do his thing, but dismantle all iron mining in Redhills and evacuate everyone with relevant expertise.


Is this a viable write-in? @Academia Nut ? Damnit, how do you poke people? [edit] Got it.
 
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Note, it's possible that the alliance will actually target the lowlands, and pulling some of our forces back will cause the king to fail in his mission, maybe even be captured and executed.

However, taking the long-term view, that seems like an acceptable risk. If the HK and TS drive us out of the lowlands, maybe they can calm down and go back to thinking we're not so scary. We didn't really want the land anyway.
Nope that is actually bad very very bad because it would cause lord's loyalty and Divine stewards to trigger their malus causing stab hits (losing territory, losing the red banners, losing our vassal state that is at least a -3 stab hit) putting us at a death spiral.
Adhoc vote count started by Reader of all on Jul 3, 2017 at 6:58 AM, finished with 67042 posts and 87 votes.
 
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