It really depends on the nature of the vote. If the war vote is what our civilization does in general, returning should be fine given it should benefit from both Rulwyna's knowledge and the King's heroic martial saying this is a good thing to do. If it's just hers, then it's more questionable. For example it could be that the Hope the King wins quickly just delegates the decision to him, and with his martial score, he would be one of the best judges of the risk reward of the iron mines being taken or how likely it would be and he responds appropriately. After all, his diplomacy and administration aren't really bad, they're just not great.
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Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Philippines
You know I think we should get a second opinion @Academia Nut what does our war chief think about the chance of the HK and TS working together to raid red hills?
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
He also would only look at the immediate risks and rewards, rather than the centuries-long scope we care about. Short-term, there's little real benefit for them if they steal our ironworking knowledge, but long-term it's a devastating blow to our advantage over our neighbors.
Yeah, Poor Martial doesn't mean that losing Redhill wouldn't be even more disastrous...for the matter, conquering Xohy is itself going to be disastrous due to Admin overreach.
We want them beaten silly, not conquered.
Our King wants them conquered.
Conquering them will trigger a failure cascade
-Low Centralization, Low Hierarchy - Everyone does the best they can locally.
-High Centralization, Low Hierarchy - System is highly dependent upon having a skilled leader and is more fragile when the leader is bad.
-Low Centralization, High Hierarchy - System is complex and does most of the work on it's own, but corruption and system exploits creeps in more easily due to complexity masking them.
-High Centralization, High Hierarchy - System is running a Command Economy, which takes stress because of extremely high administrative load.
We want them beaten silly, not conquered.
Our King wants them conquered.
Conquering them will trigger a failure cascade
That's not how Hierarchy works.
-Low Centralization, Low Hierarchy - Everyone does the best they can locally.
-High Centralization, Low Hierarchy - System is highly dependent upon having a skilled leader and is more fragile when the leader is bad.
-Low Centralization, High Hierarchy - System is complex and does most of the work on it's own, but corruption and system exploits creeps in more easily due to complexity masking them.
-High Centralization, High Hierarchy - System is running a Command Economy, which takes stress because of extremely high administrative load.
Note that we STILL have a chance of taking up to a -2 hit from Redhill damage if we don't defend it(and currently people are moving towards gambling that we can get away with not doing so)
Except reaction votes are on the mid turn. By the next mid turn we will be at least at Centralization 3, if not 5(because you can bet the provinces will be Enforce Justice happy if we don't use it first)
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm pretty sure she knows that they are working together to do this because she intercepted some messengers from HK to the TS in the update, and a thing to remember is she hits all the points for a Intrigue hero.
- Location
- Austria
And taking in more refugees damages HK economy, making them less likely to damage us in war.
Besides, stab hit from losses is nothing compared to loss of ironworking monopoly anyway.
- Location
- Philippines
We know that they are working together what we do not know is where they will strike the target being redhills is mere speculation from someone who is poor on the topic of war. Hell if there target is iron then another target is the Red banners or the lowland minors since they know iron working as well.
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- Location
- The People's Saltern
Actually not true either. We've screwed with the other polities before. Ironically, it was through Cosmopolitan Acceptance and its precursors.
We've destroyed the Western Confederacy. This was the Pioneering Spirit combo.
We almost destroyed the Hathatyn but they ended up dying later anyways.
I don't even know why we bother going for traditional wars when we already have a clear way to destroy other civilizations. Through the power of charity and friendship!
- Location
- Austria
Not with the intention to destroy though. War is, well, entirely another ballpark.
EDit: Well, it was half-deliberate with Hathatyn, but intent to help eas always still there.
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We destroyed them.
Honestly the current situation seems to be the greatest crucible that our civilization has ever had, if we come out of this intact and manage to resolve some of our issues (which we should be able to do if we don't collapse) we are in a position to become the regional power and control the lowlands. If that occurs we will with in a very short period of time become a major global power and be in a good place for the next thousand years. The other option is we collapse and get to basically start over with a rump state.
I have to say, it's kinda funny how we're simultaneously annoyed at how our centralization is too high and we have so many good ways to raise of while simultaneously are scared of lowering it to entirely safe levels to do those raising actions.
Getting an extra +1 Stability via Enforce Justice would be super useful right here, and we're looking like we're gonna skip on it due to people being afraid of... What, randomly losing 2 Centralization with no warning and breaking us?
Losing 1 is a thing we've seen happen like once or twice this whole quest, so it makes a lot of sense to keep a buffer. But is gaining an extra point of Centralization buffer really worth losing a point of Stability?
Getting an extra +1 Stability via Enforce Justice would be super useful right here, and we're looking like we're gonna skip on it due to people being afraid of... What, randomly losing 2 Centralization with no warning and breaking us?
Losing 1 is a thing we've seen happen like once or twice this whole quest, so it makes a lot of sense to keep a buffer. But is gaining an extra point of Centralization buffer really worth losing a point of Stability?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay. I'm still not particularly enthused with letting our King hit Xoh hard enough they fold and become another vassal we have to defend, and, defending Redhill sounds like a good idea.
With that said I am bowing out of this because I ain't feeling the required interest needed to argue in this thread right now.
Thank you for sharing your opinions, I'll probably end up talking to you about something else later, that we may agree on or not.
Iron working is only one half of the equation. The other is the knowledge on how to identify, mine, and smelt iron. Attacking redhill and grabbing a few miners and smelters would be the prize.
- Location
- Cara Fahd
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
Centralization is to us as Stability was to the Spirit Talkers.
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Size
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Eh, so long we don't hit 0 Cent, we won't break up.
And we're unlikely to hit Stab+Leg=0 anyway.
Pump out the Cent and double main trails repeatedly
[X] [Boat] New design: Size
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Eh, so long we don't hit 0 Cent, we won't break up.
And we're unlikely to hit Stab+Leg=0 anyway.
Pump out the Cent and double main trails repeatedly
- Location
- Lynn, MA
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
TheDanishLord
Viking Warlord
- Location
- Denmark
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
TheDanishLord
Viking Warlord
- Location
- Denmark
I fear that xoh may hire the red banners
- Location
- Philippines
Doubtful even if they made the offer the red banners are still ymaryn so they would refuse.
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
Less centralization means more roads.
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
This seems like a good opportunity to steer the wars impact on our values a bit.
Less centralization means more roads.
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
This seems like a good opportunity to steer the wars impact on our values a bit.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Actually I think a better comparison is that Centralization is to us as religious authority was to the Spirit Talkers.