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Paths of Civilization

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notgreat said:
This turn, yes. We are currently at the mid-turn. Next update is next turn, when they will have more actions. Hence why it will last a half-turn instead of an admin roll to see if it happens at all.

Why swap to balanced? We'll be continuously taking stability hit for several more turns most likely (we'll want to ramp up our econ vampirism as much as possible to help win the wars) and as long as we have at least 2 stability lacking, The Law will still apply. (If we only lack 1, they might not go for Proclaim Glory.)
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I believe it's because to complete the Great Palace, which is indicated to solve or at least mitigate the crisis via improving bureaucracy and administration, requires 5 - 7 economy and art to complete depending on the amount of turns it takes. We don't yet have that amount available, and art is going down this turn, so balanced policy is believed best as it can acquire both of them before we transition to starting a Great Palace.

This is good as we can potentially one turn a Grand Palace if we're not required to take any war actions that turn; as we can double main it using our own actions, use the secondary from that to change policy to mega project support, which contributes a further 3 main actions. This of itself could complete the Palace if it only requires 5 actions; but combined with that there could be a symphony bonus giving another action due to the synergy of collective action, along with kicking to produce another main action.
 
Andres110 said:
Kicking it means we complete it super-fast, making it likely we hit Economy 0 before anything else. There are also consequences for dropping Stability regardless of whether we make it right back up. Better to not drop it and end up at Stability 1/2 rather than Stability 0/1.
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Oh right, action orders. With the uncoordinated flailing that's currently going on it's better to er on the side of caution here.

Changing my vote:
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

The refugee action is dangerous, but Cosmopolitan Acceptance and Greater Justice would demand it.
 
BlueFlamingWings said:
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

It seems that if the climate change does settle after the fall of the Xohri we can convince the Highlanders and Thunder Speakers to lay off from surprise attacking us.

Speaking of which, I'm kinda surprised that our sorta allies would go this route instead of joining us as a Vassal. Their king, as a Vassal Lord, could even be elected as the king (assuming I'm reading the election right).

@Academia Nut, could you tell us a bit of the rationale behind this backstab?
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Its a rational move considering
Academia Nut said:
They feel backed into a corner. If they don't do this now while you are distracted with the Xohyssiri, you will dominate the lowlands and they will be consumed or marginalized shortly after.
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Raichu1972 said:
Regardless of it we get the full hit or not, the buffer of one extra stability seems rather important.
There's no need to skate on a razor thin edge if we don't have to, which needlessly taking in excess refugees will do.
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That's a reasonable rationale for not taking -2.5 option and I can respect conservatism, but it is not an argument against -1.5 at all.

And taking refugees is never needless, *especially* if we are the ones who have created them. Not taking at least -1.5 would go against not only CA, but also Justice, because it was us who have created them.
 
@Academia Nut can you give us an idea of how much the 'help more' refugee action will hurt the TS and HK, as well as how it will affect their efforts to attack us?
 
ctulhuslp said:
That's a reasonable rationale for not taking -2.5 option and I can respect conservatism, but it is not an argument against -1.5 at all.

And taking refugees is never needless, *especially* if we are the ones who have created them. Not taking at least -1.5 would go against not only CA, but also Justice, because it was us who have created them.
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I agree that taking in refugees is never needless, which is why there is not an option to refuse taking in refugees.
 
Abby Normal said:
I mean, i understand that the trails are pretty bad in general, but it certainly sounded like "the few most important roads connecting province 'capitals' are gravel, less important are groomed, minor settlements are kind of fucked tho and they all could use more work" to me, not "literally one gravel road"
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Slight clarification: the mines produce gravel that does get used in maintaining and restoring old trails, but the system basically hasn't been expanded in several centuries.

Reader of all said:
what is Rulwynna II's martial score?
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Poor.

ctulhuslp said:
what is "Seaworthiness"?
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Ability to sail in deep and rough water.

Rakuhn said:
@Academia Nut
If the Redhills are attacked, will the Heaven's Hawk or Stallion Tribes reinforce the army there?
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They can support against the Thunder Speakers in the north, otherwise no.

Potato and Chip said:
When we integrate the Stallion Tribes will the Stallions just move to the Hawk's March?
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Some of the hardliner traditionalists will probably migrate, yes.

ctulhuslp said:
can taking minimal option with regards to taking in refugees which are, in part, our fault, damage CA?
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Possibly.

BlueFlamingWings said:
could you tell us a bit of the rationale behind this backstab?
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They're scared because it seems like the world is ending, and the one relatively peaceful group in the region has demonstrated increasing militarism over the past few generations. They figure they're going to be next, or if not then they will be dominated and crushed when the People take over the lowlands. They figure now is the only opportunity to stop the landslide before it gets going.
 
Shit, action order is a thing. Ugh.

[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Also, don't want to risk damage to Cosmopolitan Acceptance.
 
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notgreat said:
We've seen repeatedly across many types of rulers that we get the absolute minimum centralization from Enforce Justice, likely due to our walls. Until we expand further, that is almost certainly going to continue.
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You forget then what got us into this mess then?

Even then, I do not see them risk raising Centralization to yellow.
 
veekie said:
Centralization 6 - We are paralyzed
Centralization 5 - High, it's generating extra strain.
Centralization 4 - Okay.
Centralization 3 - Okay.
Centralization 2 - Okay.
Centralization 1 - Low, this will trigger collapse if we hit Stability + Legitimacy <= 0 via Order of Execution, rather than at end of turn.
Centralization 0 - Collapse.
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Academia Nut said:
First you might lose the capacity to react but you can touch them without immediately explode, then if you are really low centraliation it could become "touch these conditions".
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Academia Nut said:
AN: Warning, hitting 0 Centralization will cause the government to reform as a City State Confederacy, likely triggering a civil war and societal collapse due to pre-existing tensions
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I'm reading it more like this, so we might have even less leeway

Centralization 6 - We are paralyzed
Centralization 5 - High, it's generating extra strain.
Centralization 4 - Okay.
Centralization 3 - Okay.
Centralization 2 - Can no longer react, but touching Stability + Legitimacy <= 0 via Order of Execution doesn't explode us.
Centralization 1 - Low, this will trigger collapse if we hit Stability + Legitimacy <= 0 via Order of Execution, rather than at end of turn.
Centralization 0 - Government reform but doesn't collapse us if Stability + Legitimacy > 0. May die next turn from being unable to fix problems.

@Academia Nut What does it mean to lose the capacity to react? Do we lose certain midturn options(Wildcat (not that we'll take it), midturn Main, etc.) or does it skip the midturn entirely?
 
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Raichu1972 said:
I agree that taking in refugees is never needless, which is why there is not an option to refuse taking in refugees.
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Given that the moderate option is explicitly talking about taking responsibility for what we have done, it is reasonable to assume minimal one does not mean that.

Again, you seem to think that people who need help would magically learn that we will accept them without us telling them about it. It is not going to happen, people are not used to genuine desire to help and we have to act to make it clear they have such an option at all.
Which is why minimal is insufficient, because it all goes double for folks who have been witnesses to us making offensive war.

Academia Nut said:
Possibly.
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So, minimal option is not guaranteed to damage CA, but it is a possibility. Better than I feared, way worse than others somehow expected.
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Don't want to damage CA. It's worth the problems that the lowered Stability brings and worth possibly not getting Rulwyna as queen.
 
[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

If they wish to stop us they'll hit us were they ca make headway, which would be the lowlands.
 
[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Changing my vote because there is no way I am taking the advice of someone who is poor on the subject she is talking about.
 
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

I don't have a good enough grasp of the situations to have strong opinions on the rest of this stuff, but we can take the stab hit since we are getting bonus stability from completing our mega project.
 
ctulhuslp said:
So, minimal option is not guaranteed to damage CA, but it is a possibility. Better than I feared, way worse than others somehow expected.
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This isn't new information.

Academia Nut said:
will repeatedly taking in the minimum of refugees have a regressive effect on CA, or is the 'can no longer turn away' your way of locking that in?
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Yes to both.
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Here's the previous time it came up.

Academia Nut said:
[X][Refugee] Widely advertise that you have room (-3 Stability, chance of further loss, +9-11 Econ, neither city loses True City status, ???)
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We've also taken a large number of refugees recently. This was during "Legitimate Efforts". After this, we didn't get the option to take higher amounts as we had taken in as much as we could. Cosmopolitan Acceptance is doing fine. Don't panic.
 
Rulwyna's poor Martial doesn't change the fact that we don't want the Xohyssiri to die. They provide a counterbalance to the other powers and destroying them would scare the everloving shit out of them. They WILL attack us no matter what while they still can.
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
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