Doesn't change much of the situation up north, I am afraid. Those that we would want to convert to more central Ymaryn values would just move to Heaven's Hawk March.
But that's not what I've seen AN say? If we propagate the March then the Stallions will only move to that new march because we essentially just created a land rush and Stallions would have run over to grab their own choice bit of territory. But if we integrate the March then the Stallions will just continue to stay where they are. At least that's what AN said last time I saw.

If I missed where AN said that they would move to the Hawk's March I don't think that's much of an argument against integrating the Stallions. The big problem about the north is that they are now a solid block of three territories. The West Wall, the Stallions, and the Hawks. So even if the Stallions move to the Hawks territory (though I don't quite understand why they would. There are already people living there, there isn't a lot of room. Plus the Stallions would have little to no power in the territory, forcing them to become subordinate to the local Hawk leadership.) us integrating the Stallion Tribes would literally split the Northern territories in half and would result in the Hawks becoming more like us as the Stallion bring their culture with them.

I am, however, worried about the result of having diplomacy 0, so maybe it might be best to wait a turn for our diplomacy to turn to 8.
 
Just think of a vote for no greater permissions as a vote for distribute land. We'll be able to produce enough trails one way or another.
I'd rather not Distribute Land though...

Though next turn, even if they try and attack, we can still double Main New Trails, secondary Expand Economy, and Free Policy Switch Offense to fix up our admin problems and shove our neighbors face in at the same time with three Main War Missions.
 
Out of curiosity, is there any post collating the mechanics of this quest? I couldn't find one in the threadmarks, and it seems like it might be useful to have.
 
Folks ( for example, @Candesce ), another thing about refugeees is that it helps us in the war via taking their economy.
It's also more efficient to build mills or something instead, while not causing unrest and straining our administrative system by bringing in too many foreigners with plague that will need to be taught our values.

Edit: By the way, I noticed your own vote on refugees will cause overcrowding, which is probably something that we really do not need right now.
 
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[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Main Expand Economy
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
 
But that's not what I've seen AN say? If we propagate the March then the Stallions will only move to that new march because we essentially just created a land rush and Stallions would have run over to grab their own choice bit of territory. But if we integrate the March then the Stallions will just continue to stay where they are. At least that's what AN said last time I saw.

If I missed where AN said that they would move to the Hawk's March I don't think that's much of an argument against integrating the Stallions. The big problem about the north is that they are now a solid block of three territories. The West Wall, the Stallions, and the Hawks. So even if the Stallions move to the Hawks territory (though I don't quite understand why they would. There are already people living there, there isn't a lot of room. Plus the Stallions would have little to no power in the territory, forcing them to become subordinate to the local Hawk leadership.) us integrating the Stallion Tribes would literally split the Northern territories in half and would result in the Hawks becoming more like us as the Stallion bring their culture with them.

I am, however, worried about the result of having diplomacy 0, so maybe it might be best to wait a turn for our diplomacy to turn to 8.
That isn't what he said, he said that if we have another march before we fully integrate them, they would just move to the March.

So integrating a March wouldn't be a solution. It would be a step, but does not do anything at this point. Merely as set up to absorb the other March, which is when we would start seeing effect.
Out of curiosity, is there any post collating the mechanics of this quest? I couldn't find one in the threadmarks, and it seems like it might be useful to have.
Someone is building something I think, but usually it is better to ask the thread in general.
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
-[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main Build Mills
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Edit: I'm going to feel really dumb for asking this question but have we done roads since we got Iron and thus iron tools?
 
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[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Speed
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main New Settlement - Far Eastern Redhills
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

So this is a different plan than the leading one, as I don't see the need for mills at this juncture when we should be aiming to try and consolidate and protect our gains we so don't cascade. Thus I feel doing the New Settlement is superior as those trails linking us to our vassal are both incredibly important given the size of the vassal, and vulnerable given there is no population to base units to protect them and for Blackbird's to scout so we know about if the Thunder Speakers are going to attack.

The New Settlement creates a new provinces and should; create a link to our vassals territory aiding the war with Xohsiyyri and mitigating the impact of a Thunder Horse war as our ties would be harder to sever than trails on their own, allows us to exploit our lowland gains via trade between our main settlements and the vassals which should be considerable given how fertile the lowlands have been described, and it means that in future conflicts we would have an easier time moving our troops about which is vital given Lord's Loyalty/Divine Stewards essentially meaning we have to dedicate war missions to protecting our land otherwise cascades can happen.

For the war action I've pulled back the main troops given the last update mentioned that when we conquered land, one of the tributes was the new places providing warriors to further help us. Thus the vassal force should be considerable, and we'd still be leaving a notable Ymrayn component in our Hero and the Red Banner Company. We're at the siege stage now so really, the amount of army needed to contain someone should be smaller given you can construct fortifications yourself to give your army advantages.

For the boat I've gone with speed as longships are good general all rounders, while being rather poor in direct ship combat. Thus Speed given that's the direction for naval warfare, which we'll need given our only naval opponent currently is the Trelli who have also gone speed so we'll need something of our own.

I went with lesser permission and lesser assistance as they reduce our centralization, but not by much given I've also taken the settlement action which also gives -1. Thus a total of -3 centralization, leaving us on 2 for next turn, which is ideal for a double main trails and a secondary policy balanced switch, assuming we don't need to commit war actions.

Pay the stability to kick the mega project as I feel the new settlement helps mitigate some of our current war problems via ensuring we have territorial continuity, which is greatly beneficial. Kicking the mega project ensures it completes, which of itself should provide various new bonuses or mean we no longer take economic instability hits, and should provide a further stability, economy and arguably art/mysticism from the canal too given I'd consider what the People have done to be engineering, only environmentally.

Accept the minimum amount of refugee's as we're into a proto-crisis scenario so we should focus on completing the Palace ASAP which may require using our stability to kick it in the future. The larger amounts of refugees also mean that it helps destabilize the situation further as we know they are one of the sources of the problems the People face, given they lack the institutional understanding of the culture and laws used; which isn't ideal right now.
 
I have a feeling that pulling back the military is a mistake. It reminds me too much of several different wars where a general is on the cusp of victory and the politicians back home pull back the majority of the army to defend the homelands, thus extending a war on multiple fronts.

If our King was aware of this possibility and prepared for it, we are making a major mistake. If he is not aware and we only got this information through a lucky break, then we are doing the right thing. If he had at least average diplomacy, I'd be tempted to trust him. As it is though...
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

PLEASE CONSIDER WHAT VEEKIE SAID ABOUT TIMING ON THE KICK.

Yeah, when AN only put up the option to kick megaproject after someone asked... I started thinking about the timing on it. Now veekie confirms it could put us low on stability at a crucial point- it's no good if Enforce Justice is used next turn if it lowers stability NOW, and there is a note under Enforce Justice that it works poorly on walled settlements- LIKE THE STALLION TRIBE HAVE.

So devoting tons of manpower to growing trees as we pull back the troops supporting the Northern king to let him fight alone... Then knocking on northern doors to demand they turn over wrongdoers to the new Queen's Justice? Could be a problem.

Number-wise, it looks efficient, but narratively it's problematic and the timing is dangerous.
 
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[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Speed
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main New Settlement - Far Eastern Redhills
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

So this is a different plan than the leading one, as I don't see the need for mills at this juncture when we should be aiming to try and consolidate and protect our gains we so don't cascade. Thus I feel doing the New Settlement is superior as those trails linking us to our vassal are both incredibly important given the size of the vassal, and vulnerable given there is no population to base units to protect them and for Blackbird's to scout so we know about if the Thunder Speakers are going to attack.

The New Settlement creates a new provinces and should; create a link to our vassals territory aiding the war with Xohsiyyri and mitigating the impact of a Thunder Horse war as our ties would be harder to sever than trails on their own, allows us to exploit our lowland gains via trade between our main settlements and the vassals which should be considerable given how fertile the lowlands have been described, and it means that in future conflicts we would have an easier time moving our troops about which is vital given Lord's Loyalty/Divine Stewards essentially meaning we have to dedicate war missions to protecting our land otherwise cascades can happen.

For the war action I've pulled back the main troops given the last update mentioned that when we conquered land, one of the tributes was the new places providing warriors to further help us. Thus the vassal force should be considerable, and we'd still be leaving a notable Ymrayn component in our Hero and the Red Banner Company. We're at the siege stage now so really, the amount of army needed to contain someone should be smaller given you can construct fortifications yourself to give your army advantages.

For the boat I've gone with speed as longships are good general all rounders, while being rather poor in direct ship combat. Thus Speed given that's the direction for naval warfare, which we'll need given our only naval opponent currently is the Trelli who have also gone speed so we'll need something of our own.

I went with lesser permission and lesser assistance as they reduce our centralization, but not by much given I've also taken the settlement action which also gives -1. Thus a total of -3 centralization, leaving us on 2 for next turn, which is ideal for a double main trails and a secondary policy balanced switch, assuming we don't need to commit war actions.

Pay the stability to kick the mega project as I feel the new settlement helps mitigate some of our current war problems via ensuring we have territorial continuity, which is greatly beneficial. Kicking the mega project ensures it completes, which of itself should provide various new bonuses or mean we no longer take economic instability hits, and should provide a further stability, economy and arguably art/mysticism from the canal too given I'd consider what the People have done to be engineering, only environmentally.

Accept the minimum amount of refugee's as we're into a proto-crisis scenario so we should focus on completing the Palace ASAP which may require using our stability to kick it in the future. The larger amounts of refugees also mean that it helps destabilize the situation further as we know they are one of the sources of the problems the People face, given they lack the institutional understanding of the culture and laws used; which isn't ideal right now.
Most people are doing the mills because it gives econ without eating up expansion slots, and aren't doing a new settlement because we currently are at administrative capacity and almost literally cannot govern any more land effectively.
 
It's also more efficient to build mills or something instead, while not causing unrest and straining our administrative system by bringing in too many foreigners with plague that will need to be taught our values.


Edit: By the way, I noticed your own vote on refugees will cause overcrowding, which is probably something that we really do not need right now.


Highlanders are suffering from climate change too. Sufficiently high Econ vampirism may well make them unable to war with us because they lack resources and dudes.

And, no less importantly, immigrants will bring us news of what and how our neighbours are doing, which would help both in general and specifically in war.

EDIT: so, like, it is less efficient at specifcally boosting econ, but has whole load of other benefits.
 
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[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
I have a feeling that pulling back the military is a mistake. It reminds me too much of several different wars where a general is on the cusp of victory and the politicians back home pull back the majority of the army to defend the homelands, thus extending a war on multiple fronts.
You are not the only one with that feeling we have no guarantee that Rulwynna the younger's assesment is accurate also she has never even seen a war so what does she know of military matters I suspect that rather than attacking red hills the TH and HK will attack Phygrif's group and seek to deny us the chance to hold the lowlands.
 
That doesn't matter in this case since the kick is with the Megaproject that immediately pays out Stability. The chance to break is not there.
Resources pay out at end of turn, resources committed are spent immediately.

The risk exists
Wood is more widely available than cows & paper is less laborious to manufacture than vellum and will thus be more widespread. I don't think anyone is arguing for the short term benefits of paper, though, if we're talking short term as in a replacement for trails.

What's your opinion on north-specific versus general trails?
Sacred Warding actually makes vellum quite sufficient to our demands for now.

General is better, since that should also translate to anchoring the Hathatyn Colony better before it gets ideas too.

Worse actually, since Hathatyn is selfsufficient and far less reluctant to break away

[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Speed
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main New Settlement - Far Eastern Redhills
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

So this is a different plan than the leading one, as I don't see the need for mills at this juncture when we should be aiming to try and consolidate and protect our gains we so don't cascade. Thus I feel doing the New Settlement is superior as those trails linking us to our vassal are both incredibly important given the size of the vassal, and vulnerable given there is no population to base units to protect them and for Blackbird's to scout so we know about if the Thunder Speakers are going to attack.

The New Settlement creates a new provinces and should; create a link to our vassals territory aiding the war with Xohsiyyri and mitigating the impact of a Thunder Horse war as our ties would be harder to sever than trails on their own, allows us to exploit our lowland gains via trade between our main settlements and the vassals which should be considerable given how fertile the lowlands have been described, and it means that in future conflicts we would have an easier time moving our troops about which is vital given Lord's Loyalty/Divine Stewards essentially meaning we have to dedicate war missions to protecting our land otherwise cascades can happen.

For the war action I've pulled back the main troops given the last update mentioned that when we conquered land, one of the tributes was the new places providing warriors to further help us. Thus the vassal force should be considerable, and we'd still be leaving a notable Ymrayn component in our Hero and the Red Banner Company. We're at the siege stage now so really, the amount of army needed to contain someone should be smaller given you can construct fortifications yourself to give your army advantages.

For the boat I've gone with speed as longships are good general all rounders, while being rather poor in direct ship combat. Thus Speed given that's the direction for naval warfare, which we'll need given our only naval opponent currently is the Trelli who have also gone speed so we'll need something of our own.

I went with lesser permission and lesser assistance as they reduce our centralization, but not by much given I've also taken the settlement action which also gives -1. Thus a total of -3 centralization, leaving us on 2 for next turn, which is ideal for a double main trails and a secondary policy balanced switch, assuming we don't need to commit war actions.

Pay the stability to kick the mega project as I feel the new settlement helps mitigate some of our current war problems via ensuring we have territorial continuity, which is greatly beneficial. Kicking the mega project ensures it completes, which of itself should provide various new bonuses or mean we no longer take economic instability hits, and should provide a further stability, economy and arguably art/mysticism from the canal too given I'd consider what the People have done to be engineering, only environmentally.

Accept the minimum amount of refugee's as we're into a proto-crisis scenario so we should focus on completing the Palace ASAP which may require using our stability to kick it in the future. The larger amounts of refugees also mean that it helps destabilize the situation further as we know they are one of the sources of the problems the People face, given they lack the institutional understanding of the culture and laws used; which isn't ideal right now.

Word of AN, the new settlement is smack in the raid path of the Thunder Speakers AND further stresses our admin
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Then would it be possible once we have a good admin ruler to create a cabinet-like structure in which we could have hand-picked advisers take over the most parts of various areas while having us only deal with the major issues? It theoretically seems like a good way to keep our current centralization levels while also increasing our centralization tolerance due to not having to need an Admin Hero to keep everything in the central government's power.

Edit - Sorry if this is a stupid idea
 
So, while I understand it as a means of building Centralization back up, why the desperate want of double main trails?

[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
why the desperate want of double main trails?
Because lack of connectivity and shitty trails in the north is one of the major pressures that could break our civilization at the moment.

The reason to want double main specifically is because of a statement AN made a while back about what it would take to advance our Trails technology, IIRC.
 
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