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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
-[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main Build Mill
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
-[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main Build Mills
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defendRedhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
-[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main Build Mill
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
Candesce said:
Which means it certainly counts for AN's "low centralization may make you more sensitive to cascade failure and collapse." Combine that with your -2.5 stab hit from refugees, and you're voting for us to blow up. Immediately.
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Ah, fair enough, about Centralization. Thanks to you and @Godwinson for clarification.
However, -2.5 stab from refugees with having +1 is not going to kill us unless we kick too - which I am not taking.


[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They should take in as many as they could (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, overcrowding)
 
bluefur87 said:
No, you see.

Centralization is explicitly needed to keep us safe here. Too much is bad, -2 is cutting it close and only even remotely sensible because they help put out some fires.
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Actually, no.
Centralization 6 - We are paralyzed
Centralization 5 - High, it's generating extra strain.
Centralization 4 - Okay.
Centralization 3 - Okay.
Centralization 2 - Okay.
Centralization 1 - Low, this will trigger collapse if we hit Stability + Legitimacy <= 0 via Order of Execution, rather than at end of turn.
Centralization 0 - Collapse.

This means of our current plans:
[] Partial pullout
[] Greater Mills
[] Lesser Quarry
[] No Kick
[] Min Refugee

This gives us Econ 3, Cent 2, Stability 1 to 2, Legitimacy 3.
Worst Order of Execution point is Econ 1, Cent 2, Stability 0, Legitimacy 3
This means 0 chance of Stability loss from Weather econ damage(biggest possible hit is -3, Econ is 3).
Some risk of Stability loss from defensive failure.
Absolute worst case scenario is losing the defensive action, resulting in losing 2 Econ and 1 Stability, which leaves us at Stability -2, Legitimacy 3, rising to Stability -1 at end of turn.
Still afloat.

[] Partial pullout
[] Lesser Mills
[] Lesser Quarry
[] No Kick
[] Min Refugee

This gives us Econ 2, Cent 3, Stability 1 to 2, Legitimacy 3.
Worst Order of Execution point is Econ 1, Cent 3, Stability 0, Legitimacy 3
This means small chance of Stability loss from weather econ damage(biggest possible hit is -3, Econ is 2).
Some risk of Stability loss from defensive failure.
Absolute worst case scenario is losing the defensive action, resulting in losing 2 Econ and 1 Stability, which leaves us at Stability -3, Legitimacy 3, rising to Stability -2 at end of turn.
Potential crash if Cent is considered low. No crash if Cent is considered high.

[] Partial pullout
[] Greater Mills
[] Lesser Quarry
[] Kick for Main Mill
[] Min Refugee

This gives us Econ 6, Cent 2, Stability 0 to 1, Legitimacy 3.
This means 0 chance of Stability loss from Weather econ damage(biggest possible hit is -3, Econ is 6).
Worst Order of Execution point is Econ 1, Cent 3, Stability -1, Legitimacy 3
Absolute worst case scenario is losing the defensive action, resulting in losing 2 Econ and 1 Stability, which leaves us at Stability -4, Legitimacy 3, rising to Stability -3 at end of turn.
We will crash if we lose the defensive action and fail the order of execution. Centralization irrelevant.

...are the people Kicking looking at how close we are to the bottom Stability wise? Kicking is better only if we succeed at Order of Execution check with a Mediocre Admin king.

Kiba said:
You have to wonder why the Xoh won't give up when the Ymaryn are already at the gate.
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We're demanding that a THEOCRACY cease their religious practices?


Academia Nut said:
It would be formed out of the logistics trails linking the main people to the vassals, and would open up more expansion slots, but it would also be very vulnerable.
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Probably not too hot an idea until we pull the army back.

The Sandman said:
Yes, because it will help us hold the country together in two major ways:

1) It's a huge boost for our administration. Easier to use, easier to collate, easier to store, easier to distribute than the clay tablets we're currently using. And administrative efficiency is a bottleneck that's strangling us.

2) Mail service. Letters, proclamations, business transactions, etc. flying back and forth across the nation is a way to tie people together through greater personal, cultural and economic connections that builds on itself rather than imposing bonding exercises from above.

And given our national developments, we're in a position to come up with the idea of wood pulp paper long before comparable IRL civilizations did, which is the key innovation that made paper cheap and available in vast quantities.
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We already have bulk quantities of parchment FYI. Paper won't change anything in the short term.
Candesce said:
It's looking worse and worse with the reminder that Heroes who don't have legitimate paths to power will take nasty ones instead.
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Heh, yes.
Sivantic said:
For those that aren't aware of the costs

[] [Main] Main New Settlement - Far Eastern Redhills (+1 Econ and +1 Mysticism end of turn, increases Econ Expansion)
[] [Main] Main Expand Economy (+4 Econ, -4 Econ Expansion, potential additional effects)
[] [Main] Main Build Mill (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)

Special: Main new settlement in far eastern Redhills can produce new provinces. Far eastern Redhills will also give territorial continuity with your vassal and allow for their integration.

That way you know what everything costs us.
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New Settlement is also explicitly going to further stress the administration and is exposed to raids from the Thunder Speakers.

Abby Normal said:
This doesn't really seem to fit the fluff when we got the tech up, now that i looked back on that update:

I mean, i understand that the trails are pretty bad in general, but it certainly sounded like "the few most important roads connecting province 'capitals' are gravel, less important are groomed, minor settlements are kind of fucked tho and they all could use more work" to me, not "literally one gravel road"

...Mind, this isn't exactly an important point of contention, but the state of the roads is something i apparently dont have a good grasp on
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There IS only one gravel road. Upgrades don't auto-propagate unless we take action to build them or unless private interests want to build them, so the gravel road just goes from the silver mine to Sacred Forest I believe.

Private interests don't build roads because they can't get a profit.
Andres110 said:
Next turn:
[Main] More Roads - North
[Main] More Roads - North x2

Specifying is necessary. We know from the updates that the south has been entrenching their power against the north for a while. Without specification, they may instead build the roads elsewhere, such as in Redshore or Redhills. Even if the oligarchs don't do that, that may just happen anyway if we leave it to chance. We lose nothing from specifying but may lose something from NOT specifying.
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They won't build in Redshore, but if Rulwyna II has Excellent Admin it may be better to leave her to it.
bluefur87 said:
I'm still thinking about what the practical differences between Oligarchy, Diplomacy, and Autocracy are. Remember, any of these can have hereditary power put into them.

Never got an answer I like on a mechanical level, though it was pointed out that diplomacy doesn't work at our complexity and education levels, populism being the default by far. It would seem that an oligarchy would be, by far, our best option, and mostly where we are. Again, keep in mind that Oligarchy doesn't mean it has to be hereditary, though they're likely to make it such.

So, while I disagree with how he viewed them, I do think I have to agree with veekie that we have to start seperating hereditary from various forms of ruler ship. We have a king, after all.
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Different axis yes. I'll list down without the benefits to make it clear.

Hereditaryness
-Non-hereditary - Whoever wants to stand for election can.
-De-facto Hereditary - Whoever wants to stand for election can, but only those in the families have a real chance. We're here
-De-jure Hereditary - Only those in the right families can stand for election.
-Absolute Hereditary - Only direct descent can pass down power. Most common form.

Centralization
-Anarchy - See Heroic Age Hathatyn
-City-state - Individual settlements affiliated only by culture. Can fight each other.
-Confederacy - Individual settlements affiliated by a network of alliances. Will conflict with each other, but fights more rarely.
-Federation - Individual provinces under a single federal entity, but no central authority.
-Oligarchy - Provinces unified and ruled by a council of elites drawn from each province. Has central authority, but only by consensus
-Oligarchic kingdom - As per Oligarchy, but has a First Amongst Equals King raised from the Oligarches to call the shots. We're here
-Kingdom - Strong central ruler, with power delegated from the king rather than rising up from the provinces.
-Autocracy/Despotism - Absolute central ruler. Not sustainable for a large polity.

Religion
-Secular - No religious involvement at all in rule. Kind of rare.
-Oversight - Religion advises secular rulers, but do not command. We're here
-Divine Right - Religion determines Right of Rule, where there's a secular ruler, but they must be confirmed by the priesthood
-Theocratic - Religion directly rules.

All the axis can combine freely, i.e. Theocratic Kingdom is just ruled by Pope, Theocratic Absolute Hereditary Autocracy is God-King, etc.
 
Umi-san said:
If you wanted to *not* kick the megaproject and do Greater Permission your plan would make sense, as it would get us to 3 stability. Instead, you're voting to kick and are thus burning stab and cent so you can regain them at the cost of an action and our death if we get a combo stab and cent hit, or possibly even just a stab hit if it arrives before the Megaproject finishes. All for the gain of merely +1 econ +x chance of innovation.
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Huh? No seriously, what? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Current vote:
[] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
-[] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[] [Main] Main Build Mill

Net: +6 Econ, -3 Centralization, -1 Stability

Comparison 1:
[] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)

Net: +3 Econ, -3 Centralization

Comparison 2:
[] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
-[] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[] [Main] Main Build Mill

Net: +5 Econ, -2 Centralization, -1 Stability

Current Vote is +6 Econ, putting us nice and safe. -3 Centralization is low but not dangerously so even in worst-case scenarios (especially when it's recovered immediately afterwards). The Stability is recovered via Enforce Justice, letting me get a full +3 Econ and a full blown increased innovation compared to Comparison 1, or letting us quickly recover the Stability lost compared to Comparison 2.
 
On a separate note. Am I the only one who finds it annoying that some econ gains which cost slots are marked as such, but some aren't?

For example, I'm pretty sure that econ gain from refugees costs slots... but that isn't included in the mechanics description.
 
Things I want to keep or have more of:
1. Legitimacy. The People need to have faith in their King, now more than ever in these trying times.
2. Stability. With the North-South Divide looming ever closer and major governmental change upon us, the People must be kept at ease.
3. Econ. More than just keeping the People's tummies full, it doubles as Martial which we need to keep opportunistic factions at bay.

Things I'm ambivalent about:
1. Mysticism. Keeping it high means we only need one more stat to cap and stability to start a golden age. I am not averse to spending it if a good reason is given, however.
2. Diplomacy. What we need to mend the North-South Divide, which is what we should do soon, but not now. Not sure if it will help our relationship with our neighbors at this point. We are getting a good amount without committing any effort.

Things I'm willing to give up:
1. Wealth. With our current lack of convenient trading partners, this offers very little. I'm willing to burn it for Econ and innovations. (Read Mills)
2. Art. This represent more than just pottery and dyed banners, it represents quality of singing and dancing our People do, and more. Sadly also what we use most of for Stability.

[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
The Thunder Speakers and Highlanders at our doorstep. Courtesy demands that we not leave them unattended.
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
What is the use of speed or size if the boat fails to overcome the obstacles between it and its destination?
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
Quite a drop in Centralization, yes. Are the mills worth it? Definitely.
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
Keep them happy without unnecessarily speeding up the process of breaking away.
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
-[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
It's about time.
[X] [Main] Main Build Mill
Gives us all too useful Econ. Possible synergy combined with greater permission in terms of innovations made.
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
Stability far too valuable resource at this point.

This puts our art at one, converts much of our wealth into Econ, which is arguably more useful at this moment and preps us for the trails which I read so much of recently. Have mercy, mighty dice.
 
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 2655 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 66365-66748]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Task: War
[44][War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[2][War] Withdraw all forces (-1 Legitimacy, Rulwyna becomes queen)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Boat
[35][Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[8][Boat] New design: Size
[3][Boat] New design: Speed
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Mill
[26][Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[19][Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[2][Mill] Denied
[1][Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +2 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: WC
[42][WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[6][WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[33][Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
-[23][Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[20][Main] Main Build Mill
[1][Main] Study Forests
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Refugee
[30][Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[15][Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[4][Refugee] They should take in as many as they could (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, overcrowding)
Total No. of Voters: 49


Saddened that people are not taking the Greater Permission vote. We have no guarantee that two Main Trails would be enough and knowing that being at Centralization 5 is strained...
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
-[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main Build Mills
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
I suspect kicking the forest to main building mills while allowing rock grinding mills would have had interesting synnergy effects, perhaps even counteracting the centralization hit by making it an official project.

What's really a shame is that we can't kick sacred forest and then use the extra main to Improve Festival and help integration.

or even study medicine to deal with the diseases from the south
 
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veekie said:
...are the people Kicking looking at how close we are to the bottom Stability wise? Kicking is better only if we succeed at Order of Execution check with a Mediocre Admin king.
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That doesn't matter in this case since the kick is with the Megaproject that immediately pays out Stability. The chance to break is not there.
 
Question: Assuming we always manage to survive in some form or fashion, how far into the future will we be going? Until the QM gets bored?
 
Sivantic said:
Saddened that people are not taking the Greater Permission vote. We have no guarantee that two Main Trails would be enough and knowing that being at Centralization 5 is strained...
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Just think of a vote for no greater permissions as a vote for distribute land. We'll be able to produce enough trails one way or another.
 
veekie said:
We already have bulk quantities of parchment FYI. Paper won't change anything in the short term.
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Wood is more widely available than cows & paper is less laborious to manufacture than vellum and will thus be more widespread. I don't think anyone is arguing for the short term benefits of paper, though, if we're talking short term as in a replacement for trails.

What's your opinion on north-specific versus general trails?
 
veekie said:
...are the people Kicking looking at how close we are to the bottom Stability wise? Kicking is better only if we succeed at Order of Execution check with a Mediocre Admin king.
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Actually I don't think that would be as much of a problem as you think the king is way off knocking on the xoh's doorstep so the order of execution will probably be done by the admin chief
 
[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They should take in as many as they could (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, overcrowding)

Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise, God help me, amen.
 
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[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
-[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main Build Mills
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
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