Paths of Civilization

Candesce · Jul 2, 2017

Andres110 said:
Stability loss - especially if we go into the negatives - results in corruption.

Are you under the impression that stability loss from refugees isn't a source of corruption, or did you just botch an argument against spending stability at all?

Ghostdevil · Jul 2, 2017

pblur said:
It's the title of the vote section. NOT IC or POV.

Oh your right , mah bad
But its strange to put that in a vote title since it doesn't really mean anything, its to wishy washy to be not IC

hylas240 · Jul 2, 2017

Andres110 said:
Kicking isn't to complete the megaproject. What kicking does is give us another option ON TOP of completing the megaproject. Working on it REGARDLESS of whether we kick it or not will complete it.

Academia Nut said:
Sacred Forest Renewal Megaproject, which requires 1 to 3 more turns of work

This quote is from last turn, so that leaves us with 1-2 progress left.

Reader of all · Jul 2, 2017

The least you guys could do is take the middle refugee option with we have reserves it would make our martial into at least ten which should be enough to deter the HK and TH.

Academia Nut · Jul 2, 2017

Concho117 said:
@Academia Nut Can we get our advisers to chime in?

In this case, no. This vote is a combination of the actions of an individual who does not have all the facts, and the efforts of everyone else as the king has kind of left them to their own devices to a large extent.

Neptune said:
is there a reason negotiated settlement isn't one of the ways we can end this conflict, as it means we can disengage from the conflict with the Xohsiyrri (and from their traits, it's quite likely they're liable to keep their word particularly if they believe this war is any indication of how a future conflict would go) and pull back and consolidate, given the information about the Thunder Speakers and High Kingdom should increase their threat which the King should know about.

A peace settlement should also mean that you can acquire various things, whether that's just some stats from tribute payment, technology, favorable trade rights, or perhaps a changing of some laws given they are quite literally being sieged; and given it's a true city with the density of population that implies, their lack of food production causing starvation, and general unhygienic and unhealthy condition it must be horrendous there. OOC it would also be an incredibly fun vote to have given the nature of how these types of votes go, and the interest that they pick up.

Neither side wants to settle.

Alectai said:
So, what actually won? I don't remember the "How is she raised" vote happening. Though finding out she turned out to be literally The Deep State in the end is hilarious.

Rulwyna I was raised by her father fighting in Hatriver, and doing so helped develop horse couriers.

Godwinson said:
@Academia Nut
If we finish the Sacred Forest Renewal, would that prevent additional climate damage this turn?

Given that the damage for the turn is done, no

Abby Normal said:
I meant in terms of revolt risk, not outcome; that is, does the Western wall having a new glassworks make the North as a whole more likely to decide they can make it on their own? If so, is it as important a factor as if the stallions or the regular northern provinces did?

Ah, yes, the Western Wall growing increasingly developed will eventually lead to making the north as a whole more likely to break away.

The Sandman said:
which action is most likely to lead to paper? I'm thinking it would be Study Alchemy, but wanted to check before voting.

Alchemy, Forests, and building more libraries.

Reader of all said:
why is our pilgrimage down from leading to significant?

You are falling behind in terms of religious authority compared to the other pilgrimmage sites.

pblur said:
No, it won't. One more action puts us at 9 out of a possible 10 needed. We don't KNOW one action will suffice.

One more action will complete it.

Godwinson said:
Does the [Main] Build Mill in this vote consume 3 Wealth and 1 Art as it would normally?

Yes.

The Sandman said:
Sorry to keep pinging you, @Academia Nut, but one more thought I had: if we go with the "pull out our own dudes while leaving the vassals and mercs" option, would we be able to get passage through the HK and/or TH territories for our return home? Idea is to do a carrot/stick thing, where the carrot is our soldiers leaving behind Xohyssiri loot in the brothels, taverns, gambling dens and marketplaces throughout their territory, and the stick is to make a point that our troops are well-armed and well-trained, with a side order of "we heard you were thinking about starting some shit, so don't think you can surprise us with a backstab".

They would be falling back through your territory the whole time.

bluefur87 said:
eople are confused about whether or not kicking allows us to take an additional action or is done as a 'definitely complete' the megaproject. Please clear things up.

Kicking lets you gain an additional action because you only need one more action to complete.

Sivantic · Jul 2, 2017

Cleaner Tally So people can better see what is leading in each option

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 2655 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 66365-66567]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Task: War
[31][War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[2][War] Withdraw all forces (-1 Legitimacy, Rulwyna becomes queen)

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Boat
[23][Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[7][Boat] New design: Size
[2][Boat] New design: Speed

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Mill
[21][Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[13][Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[2][Mill] Denied

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: WC
[29][WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[6][WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[35][Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
-[6][Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[1][Main] Main Build Mill

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Refugee
[21][Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[11][Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[3][Refugee] They should take in as many as they could (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, overcrowding)
Total No. of Voters: 36

Ghostdevil · Jul 2, 2017

I guess the point of tension is that more than a few people think that the very vote is lying to us, not the title of it, nor the IC part, but the vote itself is lying

Kiba · Jul 2, 2017

Xoh: We're DOOOMED! WE'RE DOOMED! AHHHHHH!!!
TS and HK: Holy shit. If we don't fight them now, we're dead.
Ymaryn: Oh crap.

The Sandman · Jul 2, 2017

Reader of all said:
The least you guys could do is take the middle refugee option with we have reserves it would make our martial into at least ten which should be enough to deter the HK and TH.

We don't want to risk collapsing our civilization with a stabhit when we already want to take a stabhit to kick the megaproject. That's why we want the small refugee influx option.

veekie · Jul 2, 2017

drake_azathoth said:
Veekie, are you sure we shouldn't do Lesser assistance with the miners so Centralization stays at 3? Academia Nut has warned us that low centralization during this time could cause problems and we only need 2 Centralization for a new trails rush, not 3.

Reminder: we're still eating random Econ loss. We need end turn Econ of 5 to be safe(Double Main Trails -2, Expand Econ +2) next turn

Candesce said:
Double main trails asap is my plan. -2 Econ, +2 Centralization, so we'll need at least 2 econ starting next turn.

Factor in random loss. We can die from Econ loss as well as cent

Guile · Jul 2, 2017

Rakuhn said:
We are going to be raising centralization before the next mid turn. I don't know why we are afraid of Centralization 2.

By next mid-turn we'll have at least +1 from main trails, maybe +2 from Double Main Trails. And if we leave on restoration policy +1 from Enforce Justice.

Do you really think we'll be able to take any actions we want next turn? That we can afford to take a bunch of Trails to get our Cent back up with a 2- or 3-front war on the horizon and lowlanders gaining the secret of iron if we fail there?

Glassware said:
We're at 1 stability currently. -2 from that puts us at -1, with a chance of further loss to put us at -2. Then the megaproject completes to put us at -1 in the worst case.

Do you REALLY want to put us 1 Stability point away from exploding, with plague and multi-front wars on the horizon and an Intrigue hero? Why.

Neptune · Jul 2, 2017

bluefur87 said:
We should not lower centralization unless it's vital, as it constitutes an unknown amount of holding us together. Going down anymore than 2 is dangerous, and honestly I am really tempted to switch my vote to take 1 centralization hit and take the bigger stability hit to mitigate this. We do want the econ, though.

A good benefit of taking the three centralization hit now is that it can potentially reduce some negatives next turn given it's highly likely we're going to take double main trails. This automatically gives us +2 centralization which leaves us at 4 which is just below the yellow mark - which is fine - but it also ensures that just in case we get additional centralization from the synergy of double main trails (and the innovation follow up implied) it should only push us into yellow centralization instead of all the way into red.

Side note - I dislike the options going to maximum refugee's. I'd much rather save the stability so we have a larger buffer, go double main trails and secondary switch to balanced next turn, then the following turn start the palace and pump the stability into there given the palace has a good chance of resolving this crisis via providing additional administrative and logistical innovation where as more refugee's in this current time only makes it more perilous if we have people coming in who don't have the institutional knowledge of the People's laws and customs.

Candesce · Jul 2, 2017

veekie said:
Factor in random loss. We can die from Econ loss as well as cent

That'd be why I changed my vote to include kicking for a Main Build Mills, yes.

ETA50M · Jul 2, 2017

Maybe we should take in more refugees since we have a guranteed plus 1 stability coming in next turn or kick and take an expand economy.

Andres · Jul 2, 2017

BungieONI said:
Also Intrigue heroes are broken as heck and pure awesome in human form. Please don't nerf.

But what if Rulwyna II was malevolent? Or the intrigue hero was non-Ymaryn?

Candesce said:
Are you under the impression that stability loss from refugees isn't a source of corruption, or did you just botch an argument against spending stability at all?

I am aware that stability loss from refugees is a source of corruption. I just think that in that case it's worth it, since it reinforces and advances Cosmopolitan Acceptance, but for merely getting more Economy it's not worth it. That said, enough corruption is generated by going into negative Stability that taking in enough refugees to take us there should be done carefully, with a Restore Order prepared to be used.

bluefur87 · Jul 2, 2017

Neptune said:
A good benefit of taking the three centralization hit now is that it can potentially reduce some negatives next turn given it's highly likely we're going to take double main trails. This automatically gives us +2 centralization which leaves us at 4 which is just below the yellow mark - which is fine - but it also ensures that just in case we get additional centralization from the synergy of double main trails (and the innovation follow up implied) it should only push us into yellow centralization instead of all the way into red.

Side note - I dislike the options going to maximum refugee's. I'd much rather save the stability so we have a larger buffer, go double main trails and secondary switch to balanced next turn, then the following turn start the palace and pump the stability into there given the palace has a good chance of resolving this crisis via providing additional administrative and logistical innovation where as more refugee's in this current time only makes it more perilous if we have people coming in who don't have the institutional knowledge of the People's laws and customs.

No, you see.

Academia Nut said:
Warning: Under current system, cascade failure begins at end of turn Legit + Stability <= 0 (Legit 3, Stab -3; Legit 2, Stab -2; etc.). Low Centralization may change this from end of turn to a more sensitive form

Centralization is explicitly needed to keep us safe here. Too much is bad, -2 is cutting it close and only even remotely sensible because they help put out some fires.

Reader of all · Jul 2, 2017

Academia Nut said:
You are falling behind in terms of religious authority compared to the other pilgrimmage sites.

See guys this is why we should raise religious authority but considering that the other pilgrimage sites are theocracies it is still quite an achievement to be able to compete against them.

Candesce · Jul 2, 2017

ETA50M said:
or kick and take an expand economy.

We're real short on econ slots at the moment. Go with the Build Mills option.

Glassware · Jul 2, 2017

ETA50M said:
Maybe we should take in more refugees since we have a guranteed plus 1 stability coming in next turn or kick and take an expand economy.

Expand economy won't work if we're taking in more refugees than the bare minimum, since our expansion slots are fairly low. If you want more econ build mills is better.

Umi-san · Jul 2, 2017

Concho117 said:
What's the difference between this:

1)
[War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

and this:

2)
[War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

In terms of end results?

1) = more econ, innovation. Less wealth, centralization 2.
2) = cent 3.

Going super low in centralization has been stated to make us more fragile.

Academia Nut said:
Absolutely. If they developed their find on their own they would also have a stronger sense of "We don't need the south".

@pblur in case u didn't read it. I think you were the one talking about not doing the WC thing? Ugh... WC... so weird to be using that again.

pblur · Jul 2, 2017

Alright, with WoG on the completion:
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
-[X] [Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[X] [Main] Main Build Mills
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

This is simply mathematically better than more refugees + megaproject. We lose 1 Stability either way, this way we gain 3 Econ, with refugees we gain 2-3 econ, and lose 2-3 econ slots.

SpeckofStardust · Jul 2, 2017

when we finish the project this turn we will get 1 stab.

Candesce · Jul 2, 2017

Andres110 said:
reinforces and advances Cosmopolitan Acceptance

This is a fucking long-term shiny. Drop it and pay attention to surviving.

pblur · Jul 2, 2017

Umi-san said:
@pblur in case u didn't read it. I think you were the one talking about not doing the WC thing? Ugh... WC... so weird to be using that again.

Yeah, but AN settled my concern about it a few pages ago.

ETA50M · Jul 2, 2017

Candesce said:
We're real short on econ slots at the moment. Go with the Build Mills option.

Glassware said:
Expand economy won't work if we're taking in more refugees than the bare minimum, since our expansion slots are fairly low. If you want more econ build mills is better.

Ah yes forgot about the econ slots.

Paths of Civilization

The Devil of Ghosts

The Devil of Ghosts

So Zetta Slowpoke

Having a really great time right now

Procrastinating.

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn