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Paths of Civilization

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Adhoc vote count started by Timewinders on May 23, 2017 at 12:56 AM, finished with 39401 posts and 27 votes.
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[X] Develop vineyard (-1 Econ, +???)
[x] Breed it
[x] Build boats to counter them (-2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects)
[x] Yes (Trade step farming for chinampas)
 
sidestory said:
Has it occured to somebody that by trading knowledge with the Xoh we are basically proclaiming our new shiny metal tools to them & thus indirectly to the whole lowlands ?
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Bigger issue is the loss of our major advantage to the international stage solely to gain something that's useful only for the dam that we plan on making. We only build on rivers, not lakes, so we can only create these new things where we build a dam (or possibly in the aqueducts in city centers, but it's dubious).

Meanwhile, the XS might transmit step farms to the TH, to the HK, to a place unknown. It's the plague remedy all over again.
 
sidestory said:
Has it occured to somebody that by trading knowledge with the Xoh we are basically proclaiming our new shiny metal tools to them & thus indirectly to the whole lowlands ?
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They'd have found out about it eventually anyway. Who knows, maybe they'll trade for iron knowledge too. We'd be giving up an advantage, but it might be worth it depending on what tech they offer.
 
[X] Improve Annual Festival (-2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art chance for additional effects)
[X] Breed it
[X] Build boats to counter them (-2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects)
[X] Yes (Trade step farming for chinampas)
 
Andres110 said:
Last time we had something like this it was with those kilns. All that required was a single Secondary action. This festival would be the equivalent of a Main action.
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No, that was literally a choice of Kilns or Watchtowers. There were no costs or benefits given. I'm not saying we aren't going to develop vineyards eventually. My entire point is that if we do it now it will become a much larger part of our trade economy. Literally, it's in the section about dealing with stability. Does that tell anyone anything about what the special effect might be?
 
Literally everyone has picked [ ] Breed it, but maybe we should consider the sacrifice option.

We don't sell our plague cows, so them being super fancy doesn't matter economically. I'm kind of reaching here, but I would imagine that [ ] Sacrifice it could net some immediate Mysticism and Stability while having whiter cows might produce a more gradual uptick. But if we get our stability up and work on mysticism, shouldn't we re-enter a golden age? Might be pretty interesting if we enter a golden age at the same time as the Dead Priests, particularly if this trade deal goes through.
 
[X] Develop vineyard (-1 Econ, +???)
[x] Breed it
[x] Build boats to counter them (-2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects)
[x] Yes (Trade step farming for chinampas)
 
Guile said:
Literally everyone has picked [ ] Breed it, but maybe we should consider the sacrifice option.

We don't sell our plague cows, so them being super fancy doesn't matter economically. I'm kind of reaching here, but I would imagine that [ ] Sacrifice it could net some immediate Mysticism and Stability while having whiter cows might produce a more gradual uptick. But if we get our stability up and work on mysticism, shouldn't we re-enter a golden age? Might be pretty interesting if we enter a golden age at the same time as the Dead Priests, particularly if this trade deal goes through.
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Creating a herd of sacred cows creates something vulnerable to theft.
 
Timewinders said:
They'd have found out about it eventually anyway. Who knows, maybe they'll trade for iron knowledge too. We'd be giving up an advantage, but it might be worth it depending on what tech they offer.
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Lol, hell no. We keep iron like a three year old hoards candy. It is our greatest advantage and there is absolutely no reason ever to give up the making of it.
 
pbluekan said:
Every single time anyone has said that, we haven't been able to do it to the same scale. @Academia Nut offers these choices for a reason. Long term or short term gain. Either we do it now and have large, tradeable wine production, or we don't and just get 'wine' tacked on later.

In any case, there's ??? effects tacked onto the wine. In al;l likelihood it would probably raise stability as an extra luxury good.

We also don't need the stability. At worse here we will go into -1 from the remaining study actions. What the hell is the big deal with that?
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We did get, for example, kilns, later than choice to proliferate them, so unless AN states we cannot get vineyard later I'll assume we can.

Plus the thread never takes Festivals, while it will gladly rush for wine on regular turn.

Kiba said:
No. We are not about to become Yet Another Asshole. Try the diplomatic approach first, or just build more boats.
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They are attacking already though. They are just failing because their king fucked up.
 
[X] Develop vineyard (-1 Econ, +???)
[x] Breed it
[x] Build boats to counter them (-2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects)
[x] Yes (Trade step farming for chinampas)
 
[X] Sacrifice it

I vote sacrifice because I don't want holy animals like how the Hindus view cows, mainly because this would stop us exploiting them to the fullest.

[X] Build boats to tie the People together (-2 Econ, +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ and Diplo next turn, additional effects, tiny chance of innovation)
[X] Build boats to counter them (-2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects)

Boats or booze was tough but I feel boats might be worth the risk especially when the other option if kick them out doesn't do anything to check them or build our power without drawing us closer to war which we wanna delay for a while.

And I cannot really gauge the farming exchange bargin.
 
ctulhuslp said:
We did get, for example, kilns, later than choice to proliferate them, so unless AN states we cannot get vineyard later I'll assume we can.

Plus the thread never takes Festivals, while it will gladly rush for wine on regular turn.

They are attacking already though. They are just failing because their king fucked up.
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It's one city-state. I do not want to be the Not!Persians to the Not!Greek. The last thing we need is for them to be unified against us.
 
General
Diplomacy 14 (max, overflowing) [+1]
Economy 12
Martial 11 {15} (partial over limit)

Stability
Stability 1 (confident)
Legitimacy 3 (max)

Organizational
Centralization 3
Hierarchy 6

Cultural
Art 8
Mysticism 5
Prestige 8

Academia Nut said:
The king called for the new mine to be opened, as much because of the resources it would bring forth as for the chance to check if it was actually associated with disaster. To compensate, an elaborate ceremony of propitiation was prepared to appease the spirits and let the People know that the king wasn't doing something that would bring ruin. He also met with the chiefs and gave them new marching orders to just try to keep the fields and forests tended, and to look for anything that might be of interest for future developments.

And as it was... the situation mostly became rather mediocre. A series of poor but not devastating harvests, some general mismanagement, and generally cool relations with outsiders lead to a situation best described of as 'uncomfortable but stable'. Nothing was generally wrong but there were a dozen or so little problems that were all adding up to produce a general feeling of social malaise.
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Hmm, could be worse. Could be better but I don't think we need to get our panties in a twist about it.

Academia Nut said:
About the only major development was that the latest chariot building push had been integrating the new iron tools and they had been making strides forward with the finer work they could do, as well as looking into using iron in the construction. Thus far they had managed to make a lighter but sturdier model that thus was able to roll faster.
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Oh Iron you so good. This sort of incremental progress will help a lot.

Academia Nut said:
As for the iron mine, it went alright with no major disasters, but the ore quality was much poorer than from the Bleeding Cliffs. Still, the lack of disaster was definitely something that the pro-metal shamans had been looking for, even if the opposed faction pointed to the general malaise and stated that the poor quality of the ore meant that obviously most of its potency and thus curse was already lost. Still, the new iron was of considerable benefit and the People immediately put it to good use.

+5 Econ, +1 Martial
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This makes sense because of high silica content. Sucky but it tells us that the Payout from a mine is likely a dice roll.


Academia Nut said:
More interestingly, in the north some sites were found of value. In Northshore a flash flood had diverted a portion of one of the rivers there into a new course, cutting away the soil to expose a good quality gypsum deposit shot through with nodules of shiny grey cubes. By all indications there weren't many practical uses, but as a source of materials for artistic endeavours there was certainly something there. Also, over in Blackriver there was a series of hills that one of the surveyors claimed had just the right conditions to be easily turned into a growing site for the small fruits on vines that some of the People grew as a luxury. What whole hills of them might be good for wasn't entirely clear, but then again the few experiments in fermentation of these fruits had produced a drink with a far bigger kick to it than beer or kumis, so there was the possibility of making the festivals really fun.
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The gypsum is really useful for plaster if I remember rightly. I could swear that the grey cubes are really important but their nature escapes me.
The site in Blackriver is going to still be there in the future so I think this will not go away. We may have to work to recover it but hey, this should be something in our back pockets.

Academia Nut said:
And then one year, a grand omen was found when a calf of pure white was born. While the immediate thought was that the calf should be the yearly sacrifice to the spirits in thanks for the maintenance of the sacred warding, there was immediate discussion over whether or not the spirits had lent this animal over to the People for a more extended purpose. While this was fairly obviously a test of some sort, the question was 'what kind of test'? The king did note that the various groups with opinions on the matter tended to be rather self serving about it. Still, the majority did have some good points. In general the camps either figured that the calf was to be sacrificed as a test of willingness to return that which was given by the spirits to the spirits, or that the purpose of giving over the white calf was because the spirits wanted a higher class of sacrifice now that the People were more successful/were transgressing by digging up metal more often, and thus it should be bred with others to produce more white cattle.
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Ooooo. Our shamans can construe it as a Challenge tie in. I'd think breeding it might be interesting. It also makes a statement that we still value life, over death. And that we think our Spirits favor life over death as well. I like this kinda implication.


Academia Nut said:
While deciding on this, the king was also listening to reports from the frontiers. Down in Southshore it sounded like pressure from the Hathatyn had ramped up again, although part of that was because it sounded like their most powerful king had made a power grab that resulted in power swinging out of his hands instead. Namely, it sounded like he had sponsored more boats to be built in an attempt to harass the People further, only for the warriors assigned to these boats to decide that they had much better plunder opportunities along the rivers rather than going into foreign territory.

Recruiting primarily from disgruntled warriors from other cities had probably been a mistake.
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Moron. I was right to think that the raiding was a stress reaction. When you put raiders on boats they have a lot of power to say "Nope you follow me now."


Academia Nut said:
Cosmopolitan Acceptance Triggers
+2 Econ, no stab loss
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OMNOMONOM. We ate that with nary a peep. Our black hole reputation grows.

Academia Nut said:
In any case, this had produced a wave of refugees who had explained the situation as best they could while being resettled. It had also created an uptick in attacks from the sea, but the People had repulsed these attacks with minimal effort, although they now definitely had cause to go into the region and beat up the Hathatyn if they so chose. Traders also brought tales of the Highlanders beginning a massive push to fortify their holdings, both in the hills and in the lowlands, clearly bracing for when the Thunder Horse finished digesting their conquests in the east and went for the other half of the lowlands. The Thunder Speakers had also apparently made some degree of peace with their humiliation and cultural castration, the purely religious Thunder Speaker choosing to focus his people's energies upon spiritual matters and artwork, to considerable success in conjunction with the Xohyssiri turning themselves into a centre of art and trade as well.
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So in summary we have a causus beli against Hathatyn. The HK are solidifying and condensing, we'll want them as shield against the Thunder Horse. And the Thunder Speakers have been reduced to religious sock puppets. @Omegahugger must be drowning in tears right now.


Academia Nut said:
The Xohyssiri themselves had actually decided to send their own delegation to the People, and while it was not quite the mythical moment still enshrined upon the stone walls of Rainbow Trail, their delegates were quite interesting to the king for the fact that a considerable number of them appeared to be labourers of some sort. Intrigued by the news from the messengers running ahead, he made sure to open a time for them to meet as quickly as possible.

"Greetings, King of the Ymaryn, I come from the Xohyssiri as an ambassador of goodwill and trade," the delegate stated. "I bring not just tribute but also a proposal that I feel may be mutually beneficial to our two peoples."

The king nodded at this and said, "Please, explain."

"For the past several generations the Xohyssiri have been forced into only our lands immediately around our fair city, and while this has rankled many, it also forced us to become clever. Our trade with you brought many ideas, and while we have not been able to replicate your achievements, we have been attempting to make do with what land we do have to get more use out of it. We have made several discoveries and changes and we grow more food than ever, but we know that you still exceed us in these matters. However, we think our workers have new insights that we would like to share with you, in exchange for teaching some of your insights," the delegate explained.

The king blinked a few times and then said, "Huh."
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Oh Hai. Nice to see you folks again. Chinampas are really good if you have any kind of water works, and we have lots and will be making lots so this is a big win. Plus out on the plains this will not help them much. It will eventually leak to the Thunder Horse though. Maybe. I rate it a very low chance.


SO onto the options.

[x] Improve Annual Festival (-2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art chance for additional effects)
This takes us to 10 Econ, and 2 Stability and 9 Art. Very nice. But it also provides a cushion for us to rest on while we finish this challenge.
We could take the finish it all in one go for massive SYNERGY without a dip into the negatives and having the Challenge be asscoiated with anxiousness and more strife which would be nice. But we could also space it out a bit and be fine to.

[x] Breed it
Folks have brought up that white cows can get very very swole and that is one reason, but by breeding it we may see that it's offspring are also white and hit upon the idea of intentional breeding. This will help our horses immensely.

[x] Build boats to counter them (-2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects)

I will pull up a quote from AN here that shows we do not really care about them

Academia Nut said:
Probably, or at least worse than is typical.

Yes, it stuck around and traded in Stonepen for a bit before heading back home.

Decently well.

Not particularly threatening, more annoying than anything else. The People have superiority, no idea how long it might last.
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Building these boats means we are really swole against them for sure. We use the guiding principle of Ymaryn warfare, throw lots of dudes/dudettes at it led by really really skilled dudes/dudettes.

[x] Yes (Trade step farming for chinampas)
They can't really use step farming. It gives more earthworking knowledge true, but they basically already have it. We get far more of an advantage by getting chinampas with our waterworks. This basically propels us even further ahead of the curve. If they find out we have starmetal, oh well I guess? That will scare the shit out of everyone when it gets out and I expect them to give us a very wide berth. We might even get some prestige out of it.
 
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Umi-san said:
Bigger issue is the loss of our major advantage to the international stage solely to gain something that's useful only for the dam that we plan on making. We only build on rivers, not lakes, so we can only create these new things where we build a dam (or possibly in the aqueducts in city centers, but it's dubious).

Meanwhile, the XS might transmit step farms to the TH, to the HK, to a place unknown. It's the plague remedy all over again.
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Eeeeh, not really. Our major advantage is the gamebreaking combination of terra preta, forest management, and step farms. Step farms are valuable, yes, but our sheer success is due to the combination of all of these and the knowledge that they all bring to the table. Chinampas is simply an extension of this.
 
[X] Improve Annual Festival (-2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art chance for additional effects)
[X] Breed it
[X] Kick them out of Southshore (War Mission)
[X] Yes (Trade step farming for chinampas)
 
pbluekan said:
Lol, hell no. We keep iron like a three year old hoards candy. It is our greatest advantage and there is absolutely no reason ever to give up the making of it.
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What's to stop them from just spying on us and figuring out how to make it anyway? The Chinese weren't able to keep their silk secret forever. We can trade the knowledge and maybe get something equally valuable for it - the Dead Priests are quite advanced in some ways - or we can lose our advantage anyway and get nothing.

If anything, it's our medical knowledge we should keep secret. Biological weapons at this stage would be gamebreaking.
 
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