pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Actually, being on the coast of the notBlackSea is a pretty good reason... Once we get currency and decent boats, that'll be good places for manufacturing.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Hell
And that is a good reason to expand southwest, not northwest next to the steppes.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Do you mean southeast? Southwest is kinda stoppered up by the HK. Though sweeping the HK could be fun if a bit trying.
- Location
- Philippines
You know the coming coastal war may lead to new ship innovations like say fire arrows or better boats
[X] [March] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] [Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] [Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
[X] [March] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] [Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] [Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
[X] [March] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] [Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] [Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
[X] [Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] [Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
- Location
- his hidden lair
Yeah, anyone choosing the Not!Black Sea over both the Not!Persian Gulf and the Not!Silk Road because they think it's liable to have more trade/manufacturing is drinking the Kool-Aid, especially since we already have a fair amount of coastline and ports on the Not!Black Sea with one primed to be fantastic what with a canal leading there from our central hub of Valleyhome.
I don't mind the new march, but the steppes are not the answer here in the long run. Boats or no. Terra Preta or no. Horrible defensible terrain or no. Perpetual war or no. Shitty repurposed pasture land or no- where was I again?
My point is, yes having a presence on the Not!Black Sea is important. Having a near naval hegemony over it would be ideal. Having the means to project power across it is absolutely awesome. But it's not the star we ought to be hitching our wagon to. Not when the Fertile Crescent is right fucking there. And the longer we procrastinate on putting our foot into that rink, the more coherent civilizations are going to be trying to exploit it themselves. The HK are going from an overextension expansion to consolidation and fortification. The TS are a rump state. The TH seem to be stabilizing. And the Xoh gobbled a lot of the TS, are increasingly being assimilated into the TH and have the single most prosperous city known right now.
I don't mind the new march, but the steppes are not the answer here in the long run. Boats or no. Terra Preta or no. Horrible defensible terrain or no. Perpetual war or no. Shitty repurposed pasture land or no- where was I again?
My point is, yes having a presence on the Not!Black Sea is important. Having a near naval hegemony over it would be ideal. Having the means to project power across it is absolutely awesome. But it's not the star we ought to be hitching our wagon to. Not when the Fertile Crescent is right fucking there. And the longer we procrastinate on putting our foot into that rink, the more coherent civilizations are going to be trying to exploit it themselves. The HK are going from an overextension expansion to consolidation and fortification. The TS are a rump state. The TH seem to be stabilizing. And the Xoh gobbled a lot of the TS, are increasingly being assimilated into the TH and have the single most prosperous city known right now.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Southeast is stoppered by the HK, southwest by the Hathatyn. The only directions you can expand without having to fight other settled groups is northwest (which has sea access) and northeast (which is nothing but steppes).
Let's go make the Black Sea our lake?
- Location
- Illinois
A bit late, but I wanted to respond to this:
Symphony actually helps with our armies, since we tend to use large scale movements that need the coordination of Symphony to really be possible. So as long as we don't start acting against the spirit of Symphony, we should be fine.
The reason Symphony requires a casus belli is because war for no reason is disharmonious, not because war itself is bad. If you have a reason to go for war, then you are still following the natural order, and thus Symphony is fine with that. But if you go raiding for no reason other than economic benefit, then you are acting against the trait.
Symphony actually helps with our armies, since we tend to use large scale movements that need the coordination of Symphony to really be possible. So as long as we don't start acting against the spirit of Symphony, we should be fine.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And of course going directly east means the Thunder Speakers raid us or we conflict with the Thunder Horse.
Getting 10+ Prestige and that North East March is looking mighty tasty right now.
- Location
- Illinois
Excellent points, very well thought out. Just one problem with your plan...
Not enough dead nomads.
Okay, loose strategy for mission(note, somewhat guessing on Provincial actions):
Now
-Survey Land
Turn 1:
-If Survey Land finds a Redhill deposit:
--State Main - Build Iron Mine (Econ 9->?(unknown large bonus, but should stop at cap and overflow anyway), Stability 1->0, Mysticism 3->4, Art 7->8)
--State Secondary - Change Policy - Balanced
--State Secondary - Build Watchtowers - Southshore(Econ ?->?)
--Province Law - Expand Economy (Art 7->11 Econ overflow)
--Province Secondary 1 - Build Watchtowers - Southshore/Study Stars
--Province Secondary 2 - Improve Annual Festival
--Province Secondary 3 - Improve Annual Festival x2 (Econ ?->?, Art 11->12, Stability 0->1)
From here, it's simply doing Study Metal on Turn 2, and Study Tailings on Turn 3, if the provinces don't Study Health on Turn 2, we'll have to do it manually and accept that Turn 3 has no flexibility left.
-If Survey Land finds a wilderness deposit instead:
--State Main - Study Metal(Econ 9->8, Myst 3->1, Stability 1->0)
--State Secondary - Change Policy - Balanced
--State Secondary - New Settlement
--Province Law - Expand Economy(Econ 8->12)
--Province Secondary 1 - Study Health
--Province Secondary 2 - Study Health x2(Econ 12->11)
--Province Secondary 3 - Build Watchtowers - Southshore(Econ 11->10
From here, it's simply doing the Mine on Turn 2, but depending on specific province actions we might not be able to do the last Study until turn 3 due to lacking Mysticism until the Mine is built. We'll have to do a Turn 2 Grand Sacrifice or Festival instead.
Still a lot of variables, but @Academia Nut can we assume that the provinces will try to Main a Study Health when we're studying either Metal or Tailings in order to advance the challenge?
Barring something being urgent in their view, like Southshore taking a defense building.
Now
-Survey Land
Turn 1:
-If Survey Land finds a Redhill deposit:
--State Main - Build Iron Mine (Econ 9->?(unknown large bonus, but should stop at cap and overflow anyway), Stability 1->0, Mysticism 3->4, Art 7->8)
--State Secondary - Change Policy - Balanced
--State Secondary - Build Watchtowers - Southshore(Econ ?->?)
--Province Law - Expand Economy (Art 7->11 Econ overflow)
--Province Secondary 1 - Build Watchtowers - Southshore/Study Stars
--Province Secondary 2 - Improve Annual Festival
--Province Secondary 3 - Improve Annual Festival x2 (Econ ?->?, Art 11->12, Stability 0->1)
From here, it's simply doing Study Metal on Turn 2, and Study Tailings on Turn 3, if the provinces don't Study Health on Turn 2, we'll have to do it manually and accept that Turn 3 has no flexibility left.
-If Survey Land finds a wilderness deposit instead:
--State Main - Study Metal(Econ 9->8, Myst 3->1, Stability 1->0)
--State Secondary - Change Policy - Balanced
--State Secondary - New Settlement
--Province Law - Expand Economy(Econ 8->12)
--Province Secondary 1 - Study Health
--Province Secondary 2 - Study Health x2(Econ 12->11)
--Province Secondary 3 - Build Watchtowers - Southshore(Econ 11->10
From here, it's simply doing the Mine on Turn 2, but depending on specific province actions we might not be able to do the last Study until turn 3 due to lacking Mysticism until the Mine is built. We'll have to do a Turn 2 Grand Sacrifice or Festival instead.
Still a lot of variables, but @Academia Nut can we assume that the provinces will try to Main a Study Health when we're studying either Metal or Tailings in order to advance the challenge?
Barring something being urgent in their view, like Southshore taking a defense building.
- Location
- United States
Nope, the colonies we make aren't supported by our prestige. That would only happen if we were to vassalize the HK or something.
- Location
- Australia
Read the context.
These Secondaries could instead be used to do Grand Festival. It gives more Stability for the same amount of Econ and the same amount of actions.
EDIT: Thought "wilderness deposit" meant "nothing found" for some reason.
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- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
[X][March] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X][Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X][Challange] Survey Lands (-1 Econ,improved odds of success)
[X][Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X][Challange] Survey Lands (-1 Econ,improved odds of success)
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well if we expand east along the hills we will have plenty of chances to munch on Nomads. But we'll be doing it in terrain that favors us instead of them.Excellent points, very well thought out. Just one problem with your plan...
Not enough dead nomads.
Our current Map is going to look like this when we grab the new march.
At least the door they came in from is closed now.
Yeah right now due to our traits we can support two peripheries without prestige. But when we open that third slot by going above prestige 10 the Periphery state that goes into it will be supported by Prestige.
Like the plan veekie, though you goofed a little in one place, though it doesn't matter much what with the Mine. What with the current vote we will be at Econ 7 because the March takes 2 Econ with it's Martial.
With the plans being bounced by me, you, and notgreat we should be able to come to some kind of consensus. We certainly have options.
What do you think of mixing Study Health with Study Tailings? I see that combo as detrimental because it has little room to challenge accepted facts. The Tailings will make people sick so...
I figure it's best to head off accidental but well meaning derpitude and make sure it is Metal that is taken with Health.
Truthfully looking at your plan it may actually be better to find a wilderness site for metal mines. It certainly finishes faster.
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- Location
- Provo Utah or Northwestern Idaho
[X] [March] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] [Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] [Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
[X] [Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] [Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
- Location
- Panama City
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 1539 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.9.0
Task: March
[59][March] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[16][March] No, stay at home
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Caravan
[77][Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Challenge
[59][Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
[16][Challenge] Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights)
[2][Challenge] Study Metal (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights)
Total No. of Voters: 77
##### NetTally 1.9.0
Task: March
[59][March] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[16][March] No, stay at home
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Caravan
[77][Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Challenge
[59][Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
[16][Challenge] Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights)
[2][Challenge] Study Metal (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights)
Total No. of Voters: 77
What? A local site for metal is just objectively better since it saves us an action.
T1:
[Main] Iron Mine
[Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[Secondary] Grand Sacrifice (freed action)
Provinces:
Don't really care, hope for Mysticism+stability
T2:
[Main] Study Metal
[Main] Study Tailings
Province actions -
[Main] Study Health
Otherwise don't care.
[Main] Iron Mine
[Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[Secondary] Grand Sacrifice (freed action)
Provinces:
Don't really care, hope for Mysticism+stability
T2:
[Main] Study Metal
[Main] Study Tailings
Province actions -
[Main] Study Health
Otherwise don't care.
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You don't seem to get that the mine site is only one of the things that can be found. Half a dozen things could be found instead. Its a survey that finds what is there and we don't yet know what is there. Could get it first time, could get metal try seven. Could end up with new crops or live stock... could end up discovering domesticated tree geckos.
Why exactly would The People attack a random caravan we know nothing about? Its the SW idiots that are getting to be problems next. This is why people are voting to investigate the caravan. It could just fuse with the new March or something or be from the stupid rich guys in the land of southwest way the hell over there.
This is not how Marches work. Marches are explicitly semi-expendable, semi-autonomous vassal states. They run their own economy. They are their as Ablative armor mini-Civs. Sure we can't let them die on purpose or ignore them... but the Stallions have to support them also.
I'm pretty sure he said that we can't get to those specific nomad unless we get that march set up there or the logistics trail is not feasible... not that settling a march screws up the main states logistics.
Also, they could just go there if they don't have permission anyway... then we a new march with issues. Something is happening with those half again as many as cap troops. This is the controlled use of them.
What? There is no second giant body of water to be the Persian Gulf. I've seen the map where did you get a second sea from that?
From what I can tell your suggesting that we keep those excess troops standing around and then settle towards the TH.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That comment was specifically in reference to his plan. His specific plan finishes one turn faster when we have a wilderness site.
Generally though yes as you showed there are better ways to set it up when we have a local site we don't have to colonize and can rely, sensibly, on the Provinces propping us up.
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- Location
- Simi Valley, CA, United States
By the way, I've seen them mentioned a few times but who are the Hathatyn?
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I think they grow opium, and they border the HK. They are the Not!Hittites people.