A Simple Transaction

Unelemental · Apr 23, 2017

When you're sufficiently powerful, your lack of social capabilities ceases to be your problem. So let's go kill some more orcs to avoid socializing!

Silverias said:
I do NOT understand why people are picking orcbane.

Even the evil one is better.

We will NOT be staying in this world. In worlds without orcs, Orcbane is WORTHLESS.

Because the power that comes from killing orcs accelerates our development curve and thus lets us get more power in preparation for the next world - not to mention killing the Hero isn't going to be a walk in the park either. Not that it matters, as the Accursed won't ever give us impossible challenges, but do you really want Accursed-sempai to despise us even more than he currently does?

vali · Apr 23, 2017

Silverias said:
We will NOT be staying in this world. In worlds without orcs, Orcbane is WORTHLESS.

Well, no. Orcbane makes us better at killing orcs, which isn't worthless at all.

And I'm voting for it for the same reason everyone voted for the GoTY power; because it keeps us alive, something that neither of the other two abilities do anything for.

Rihaku · Apr 23, 2017

Da Boyz said:
Also since you didn't quote the rest of my post does that mean I'm right there?

No, my argument addressed the central premise of your question, so there was no need. Unless the details you propose actually get into a winning plan, their validity as solutions doesn't matter. I.e. you'd need to convince the thread before it even comes to my arbitration.

Also, I think point-by-point quoting refutations are now banned on SV.

Again, the question remains: Even if all your premises hold true, (which you should not assign even 50% probability to if being epistemically honest), do you wish to sacrifice several months to years, right now, when you are weak and can die to poison or a random event at any time, in order to maybe become 1-2% more powerful in several years to decades, or would you rather become powerful immediately? Most people would choose the latter.

vali said:
Ah yes; downtime. Which we get so much of. Because Rihaku's quests are just PACKED full of long, boring periods where nothing happens.

Decades. And decades. Of tedium.

...

Seriously, it's going to be non-stop action until we kill the Hero. Then, Rihaku will give us a choice; a year or two vacation, OR the red option will let us hop to the next world immediately in return for a minor power-up. Everyone will vote for the red option, and the quest will continue to be a non-stop parade of action.

(Check the first post: vacation time is optional.)

It's not improbable that you'll get a few timeskips from time to time.

Then again, it may not be probable, either. Who knows?

ConfusedPotato · Apr 23, 2017

[X] Constitution
[X] Title: The Stranger

Adhoc vote count started by ConfusedPotato on Apr 23, 2017 at 3:51 AM, finished with 147 posts and 38 votes.

20 people have voted
[X] Constitution
- greatoz
- Lealope
- Dark Abstraction
- Salty
- BlueFlamingWings
- indra
- MrCogmor
- kriogenik
- Wolfy
- Orm Embar
- ohrasil
- Cerillian
- Kirbstomp
- Fumbles
- Thomasfoolery
- fictionfan
- Shard
- Unelemental
- Fried brain
- ConfusedPotato
15 people have voted
[x]Title: The Stranger
- OctarineShrike
- greatoz
- Dark Abstraction
- BlueFlamingWings
- indra
- Ct613hulu
- andy50
- Silverias
- ClawClawBite
- Orm Embar
- ohrasil
- Cerillian
- Kirbstomp
- Thanatanos
- ConfusedPotato
15 people have voted
[X] Mark: Orcbane
- DkArthas
- vali
- Usernames
- sithmor
- Sigil
- roffster
- will408914
- Wolfy
- GulibleLeprecon
- Fumbles
- Thomasfoolery
- fictionfan
- Shard
- Unelemental
- Fried brain
7 people have voted
[X] Wits
7 people have voted
[X] Title: A Force Truly Evil
- Dark Lord Bob
- Lealope
- xtra_ore
- Salty
- Duquette7
- MrCogmor
- kriogenik
3 people have voted
[X] Strength
- xtra_ore
- vali
- will408914
3 people have voted
[X] Dexterity
1 people have voted
[x]3 Strength, 2 Constitution
- OctarineShrike
1 people have voted
[X] Title: A Force Truly Evil - Even went back in time and turned you whack in the prequel... Social skills are beyond the remit of your Progression system, but with this Title you may create and employ the favored adversarial social Skill of the Accursed, Presence: Intimidation.
- Drasky

Orm Embar · Apr 23, 2017

Hm, regarding Brand of the Wretched, I don't suppose we're fortunate enough to be able to do things like meet someone in disguise, tank the penalty, and then doff it later for a more normal introduction? Stranger is useful in that it contextualizes the strong dislike people feel in a manner that makes them unlikely to attack us, and can probably be leveraged for intimidation purposes even without the benefit of a discrete skill. We're the mysterious outsider who ends discussions by walking into a room, not a pariah who can be safely denied service. Who knows what terrible powers or agendas might lurk behind his mask?

If they pull it off, will he die? Seram's not a big guy, though...

Da Boyz · Apr 23, 2017

runeblue360 said:
Irrelevant without the internet.

The iMango is never irrelevant! More seriously I do believe we have a Wikipedia app assuming that Seram downloaded the same things he did last quest.

runeblue360 said:
Lowering our health in the event of an attack.

That's just silly. Our health regenerates, unless you want Seram to be in a state of constant paranoia where he's afraid of taking even a sliver of damage to his HP then there's no reason to worry about it.

runeblue360 said:
He's got 5 Will, which is intemperate. Not enough. I'd rather save our temporal Will for battles or improving his Will rank or actually productive training of Amplitude, not on a marginal at best improvement is combat ability that inefficiently improves our stats to irrelevant degrees.

Then buy Will ranks? Seriously this isn't rocket science, if we buy more Will ranks then Seram will be able to keep to a workout regimen.

runeblue360 said:
With what money? Who would want to do it given that everyone hates us? How will we preserve that food? Why would we choose such a slow method of travel?

...we literally just saved a town dude. While I doubt Seram is going to extort them for every red cent the quest did mention "trade goods" as a reward and I'm sure we could find someone willing to do so around here.

runeblue360 said:
Except it's not relevant for immediate survival which is the actual concern at hand. Besides, by that logic, we'd never bother to invest in the other stats because Wits would be always higher.

Yes? Get our physical stats up to a decent level and then focus on Seram's strong point, we can see about upgrading the others later on but Wits is probably our most important stat once we get out of the "don't die" range.

runeblue360 said:
By high stats, you mean baseline physical competence. By low Wits stat, you mean a supergenius and prodigy.

Again we don't have to waste points getting baseline physical competence. We can train ourselves up instead and ensure that we aren't merely stuck at the level of a supergenius prodigy.

runeblue360 said:
Saving lives is less mentally healthy than spending immense effort and willpower on tedious training.

Okay.

...killing people is bad for your mental health. Even if those people are orcs. I'm not saying that Seram shouldn't try and save as many people as possible and kill orcs in order to level up. I'm saying that living like a murderhobo would be the only way to maintain that kind of lifestyle in the long run, in any case where we have significant downtime it becomes better to get as many "free" points as possible.

runeblue360 said:
Except grinding is what we're going to do anyway. Training is going to be a very, very minimal part of our improvement and the rest will be from levels. And again, you're representing this incredibly disingenuously. Seram would be saving lives. This is not a bad lifestyle.

Again you're either deliberately misunderstanding me here or not getting the point. I'm not saying that Seram shouldn't try and save people, I wrote an omake a couple pages back in support of Seram risking his life to save people he'd never met. I'm saying that unless you want Seram's life to be a robotic cycle of "find threat, kill threat, move on to next area" we're going to have time to get in shape eventually, and that we'd eventually run out of orcs to kill anyway.

Rihaku · Apr 23, 2017

Orm Embar said:
Hm, regarding Brand of the Wretched, I don't suppose we're fortunate enough to be able to do things like meet someone in disguise, tank the penalty, and then doff it later for a more normal introduction? Stranger is useful in that it contextualizes the strong dislike people feel in a manner that makes them unlikely to attack us, and can probably be leveraged for intimidation purposes even without the benefit of a discrete skill. We're the mysterious outsider who ends discussions by walking into a room, not a pariah who can be safely denied service. Who knows what terrible powers or agendas might lurk behind his mask?

On the other hand, the pariah probably won't get anonymous tips about him constantly submitted to the CIA. I mean cops.

If they haven't met "you" previously, the Brand will proc.

Da Boyz said:
...killing people is bad for your mental health. Even if those people are orcs. I'm not saying that Seram shouldn't try and save as many people as possible and kill orcs in order to level up. I'm saying that living like a murderhobo would be the only way to maintain that kind of lifestyle in the long run, in any case where we have significant downtime it becomes better to get as many "free" points as possible.

If you don't support murderhoboing, then your hypothetical Seram will never begin to even approach the power of the murderhobo Seram, so the matter of training becomes even more irrelevant. Instead of being 1-2% stronger at the cost of several months of vulnerability and zero progress (dangerous if the Hero is alive and advancing right now), you'd just be immeasurably weaker.

That is not to say that murderhoboing is a particularly healthy course of action, merely that it is a means by which people interested in power attain it.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 23, 2017

Orm Embar said:
Brand of the Wretched, I don't suppose we're fortunate enough to be able to do things like meet someone in disguise, tank the penalty, and then doff it later for a more normal introduction?

This was asked, they still dislike us.

vali · Apr 23, 2017

Da Boyz said:
Again we don't have to waste points getting baseline physical competence. We can train ourselves up instead and ensure that we aren't merely stuck at the level of a supergenius prodigy.

We can't waste points. Because we have an infinite number of them. It's in the name of our power; Unbounded Progression.

There are more points. There are always more points. But what we DON'T always have more of is time, because there is always someone, somewhere, coming to wreck our shit.

Forget about the points. All that matters is getting stronger the fastest way possible. So is the fastest possible way of getting stronger

A: Picking rocks and logs until we can pick up slightly heavier rocks and logs?
OR
B: Practicing using our Heaven Broken, no limits, Ultimate Magus ability, for which we have superior intuitive compatibility and 400% bonus learning speed, and which we took on an additional curse to get? Whose conceptual limits can be broken?

veekie · Apr 23, 2017

[X] Title: The Stranger
[X] Constitution

Derkan · Apr 23, 2017

[X] Constitution
[X] Mark: Orcbane

Lealope · Apr 23, 2017

Da Boyz said:
Snip

The iMango's Wikipedia app is of minimal relevance to physical improvement as

A) Seram wouldn't be the sort to have articles useful for such
B) Wikipedia is not a good source of exercise advice regardless

Due to this and the lack of equipment, any physical improvement we could make currently would be inefficient. In addition, Seram lacks the Will necessary to execute a training program without burning temporary Will, which could be put towards permanent Will ranks, combat or actually productive training for Amplitude.

However, we cannot postpone any improvements into physical conditioning as it will be immediately necessary for survival. Without our incredibly good rolls, Seram would have lost. Thus, we need to improve immediately and training cannot help us with that, as Rihaku has already pointed out. We need to invest into physical stats.

Windlass · Apr 23, 2017

[X] Wits
[X] Title: A Force Truly Evil

Let's face it, we're totes gonna have to intimidate people. Being a shady stranger isn't going to pull protagonist-kun's fat out of the fire all the time, and s'not like we're only ever gonna fight orcs. Way I see it, we've got one option for the villagers, who are basically useless, and one for killin' orcs. We can intimidate everybody, so we pick intimidate.

Da Boyz · Apr 23, 2017

Rihaku said:
If you don't support murderhoboing, then your hypothetical Seram will never begin to even approach the power of the murderhobo Seram, so the matter of training becomes even more irrelevant. Instead of being 1-2% stronger at the cost of several months of vulnerability and zero progress (dangerous if the Hero is alive and advancing right now), you'd just be immeasurably weaker.

That is not to say that murderhoboing is a particularly healthy course of action, merely that it is a means by which people interested in power attain it.

Alright? I'm not particularly obsessed with pursuing the optimal path towards power given how we have an eternity to reach it provided that we keep managing to finish our missions. So I'll take a Seram who picks up the lower end points and goes the slow route toward immeasurable cosmic power.

vali said:
We can't waste points. Because we have an infinite number of them. It's in the name of our power; Unbounded Progression.

There are more points. There are always more points. But what we DON'T always have more of is time, because there is always someone, somewhere, coming to wreck our shit.

Forget about the points. All that matters is getting stronger the fastest way possible. So is the fastest possible way of getting stronger

A: Picking rocks and logs until we can pick up slightly heavier rocks and logs?
OR
B: Practicing using our Heaven Broken, no limits, Ultimate Magus ability, for which we have superior intuitive compatibility and 400% bonus learning speed, and which we took on an additional curse to get? Whose conceptual limits can be broken?

vali said:
Ah yes; downtime. Which we get so much of. Because Rihaku's quests are just PACKED full of long, boring periods where nothing happens.

Decades. And decades. Of tedium.

...

Seriously, it's going to be non-stop action until we kill the Hero. Then, Rihaku will give us a choice; a year or two vacation, OR the red option will let us hop to the next world immediately in return for a minor power-up. Everyone will vote for the red option, and the quest will continue to be a non-stop parade of action.

(Check the first post: vacation time is optional.)

I'm operating under the assumption that this isn't going to derive in a ruthless scrabble to the top driven by sheer desperation and the overwhelming threats which are coming after us. Hopelessly optimistic for a Rihaku Quest I know.

Koden · Apr 23, 2017

[X] Mark: Orcbane
[X] Constitution

Killing Orcs is the fastest and less morally troubling path to Xp, being better at it cannot be bad.

Da Boyz · Apr 23, 2017

runeblue360 said:
The iMango's Wikipedia app is of minimal relevance to physical improvement as

A) Seram wouldn't be the sort to have articles useful for such
B) Wikipedia is not a good source of exercise advice regardless.

Due to this and the lack of equipment, any physical improvement we could make currently would be inefficient. In addition, Seram lacks the Will necessary to execute a training program without burning temporary Will, which could be put towards permanent Will ranks, combat or actually productive training for Amplitude.

However, we cannot postpone any improvements into physical conditioning as it will be immediately necessary for survival. Without our incredibly good rolls, Seram would have lost. Thus, we need to improve immediately and training cannot help us with that, as Rihaku has already pointed out. We need to invest into physical stats.

A. We honestly don't know what Seram does or does not have till Rihaku tells us one way or the other. Keep in mind that "I memorized 1/2 of Wikipedia" was one possible version of Seram at one point.
B. Still better then nothing.

Also citation on us not having the Will Ranks needed? I mean Rihaku has been deliberately vague about everything regarding training this whole time. Also I have to admit that I've almost missed the feeling of staying up till 4am to argue over the details of a Rihaku Quest.

Rihaku · Apr 23, 2017

Da Boyz said:
Alright? I'm not particularly obsessed with pursuing the optimal path towards power given how we have an eternity to reach it provided that we keep managing to finish our missions.

Then... why were you so invested in physical training? If Seram has enough physical stats not to worry about dying to random events, he'd be way too powerful to benefit from organic training. Unless you want to postpone getting your stats to that level by several months, just buy them now. The only reason not to is to squeeze out that 1-2% of extra power.

Koden said:
Killing Orcs is the fastest and less morally troubling path to Xp, being better at it cannot be bad.

Hey, orcs are people too! They're just terrible.

Windlass said:
[X] Wits
[X] Title: A Force Truly Evil

Let's face it, we're totes gonna have to intimidate people. Being a shady stranger isn't going to pull protagonist-kun's fat out of the fire all the time, and s'not like we're only ever gonna fight orcs. Way I see it, we've got one option for the villagers, who are basically useless, and one for killin' orcs. We can intimidate everybody, so we pick intimidate.

Poor Seram. What if he ends up like the Heroine, a weapon pointed at the orcs dancing on the puppet strings of the entrenched nobles?

vali · Apr 23, 2017

Da Boyz said:
I'm operating under the assumption that this isn't going to derive in a ruthless scrabble to the top driven by sheer desperation and the overwhelming threats which are coming after us. Hopelessly optimistic for a Rihaku Quest I know.

Given his current physical stats he clearly doesn't care about exercise. So if he did take a vacation, I think it would be more in-character for Seram to abandon civilization and spend a couple months screwing around in the wilderness, contemplating his navel or something.

Pipeman · Apr 23, 2017

[X] Constitution
[X] Mark: Orcbane

Disregard social, kill orcs.

Or rather both intimidation and being an enigmatic stranger is not exactly all that conductive to building up positive or stable relationships, so it's not like the "social" options are actually all that social.
They are means by which to extract benefits or make people somewhat less inclined to refuse interacting superficially out of a sheer terrible first impression, but still add hurdles of their own for more involved relationships.

Killing orcs extracts way more useful stuff for now and makes our current situation much, much less risky, so get to it.
And killing lots and lots of orcs very much provides its own mitigator of "I really don't want to put up with this guy".
Namely "But he kills tons of orcs and we really need the orcs dead, so I guess I have to".

Ct613hulu · Apr 23, 2017

Rihaku said:
Hey, orcs are people too! They're just terrible.

Does Seram actually have access to any information that would indicate that the Orcs are inherently evil or that the conflict between the Orcs and this human settlement is in any way different than a normal human conflict? Could it be possible that the Orcs are the good guys who are only responding to incursions into their land or at the very least for the Orcs to not simply fall into the category of "Evil".

meianmaru · Apr 23, 2017

[X] Title: The Stranger
[X] Constitution

Rihaku · Apr 23, 2017

Hm... if you guys really want to kill Orcs, it may be easier to go with a STR/CON split, or possibly even pure STR depending on whether you want to go after elite orcs or lots of middling orcs. I think @Conjured Blade had a STR/CON split vote.

DkArthas · Apr 23, 2017

[X] Title: A Force Truly Evil

Changing again...sigh..

Da Boyz · Apr 23, 2017

Rihaku said:
Then... why were you so invested in physical training? If Seram has enough physical stats not to worry about dying to random events, he'd be way too powerful to benefit from organic training. Unless you want to postpone getting your stats to that level by several months, just buy them now. The only reason not to is to squeeze out that 1-2% of extra power.

Again I'm assuming that we're going to hit something close to the "soft level cap" for this world by the time we're done with this assignment. And while it would be possible to go farther if we were to ruthlessly murderhobo our way through it and then immediately proceed to the next world I'm not particularly interested in seeing Seram go down that route. So better that we get the points from physical training for free and then build off of that till we get to the level cap and then chill till it comes time for us to go to the next world. And on that note good night.

Rihaku · Apr 23, 2017

Ct613hulu said:
Does Seram actually have access to any information that would indicate that the Orcs are inherently evil or that the conflict between the Orcs and this human settlement is in any way different than a normal human conflict? Could it be possible that the Orcs are the good guys who are only responding to incursions into their land or at the very least for the Orcs to not simply fall into the category of "Evil".

Well, they do eat people. That's pretty fucked up. And he was attacked on sight by that one orc. The letter pretty clearly implied they were going to kill and eat an entire village of mostly innocent people, so there's that.

Pipeman said:
[X] Constitution
[X] Mark: Orcbane

Disregard social, kill orcs.

Or rather both intimidation and being an enigmatic stranger is not exactly all that conductive to building up positive or stable relationships, so it's not like the "social" options are actually all that social.
They are means by which to extract benefits or make people somewhat less inclined to refuse interacting superficially out of a sheer terrible first impression, but still add hurdles of their own for more involved relationships.

Killing orcs extracts way more useful stuff for now and makes our current situation much, much less risky, so get to it.
And killing lots and lots of orcs very much provides its own mitigator of "I really don't want to put up with this guy".
Namely "But he kills tons of orcs and we really need the orcs dead, so I guess I have to".

Anything to get the foot in the door, huh?

A Simple Transaction

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