The Sun Never Sets - A New World Exploration Game

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kızıl sultan said:
Milan is very wealthy, and has access to the vast reserves of condottieri of Italy. Also, you mention that Milan was rolled over repeatedly during this period. Half of the time, that was because it was usually the aggressor, but the other half was because of France, which is completely fucked after losing the War of Public Weal. I'm not going to try to convince you to play if you don't want to. Brandenburg and Saxony are open, but it's clear you just want to play as someone who can conquer neighbors at will, I do not know if those will suffice.
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That's not what I'm aiming for at all! I'm just worried that Milan doesn't have the ability to do anything until someone with a stronger army comes along and wipes them out.

It's not about global conquest, it's about establishing a nice little niche in your corner of the world. I don't think Milan can do that with so many neighbors...and neighbors that are good players too.
 
Arryn said:
That's not what I'm aiming for at all! I'm just worried that Milan doesn't have the ability to do anything until someone with a stronger army comes along and wipes them out.

It's not about global conquest, it's about establishing a nice little niche in your corner of the world. I don't think Milan can do that with so many neighbors...and neighbors that are good players too.
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Like I said, saxony and Brandenburg are important players in a sea of statelets, and they are also electors, which will be very important very soon.
 
Because I'm a huge nerd and love reading such things, and some of you might too, here's transcripts of some medieval documents from this period, more or less: a marriage contract and a peace treaty.​

The Marriage of James IV and Margaret Tudor
I. That James shall at Candlemas next, personally or by proxy, marry the princess Margaret, who had attained the nubile age of twelve years on the thirtieth day of last November; and that no exceptions shall be made on account of consanguinity, that bar being removed by the papal dispensation.

2. That the princess shall be conducted into Scotland, at the expence of her father; and shall be delivered to her husband, or to any personages impowered by him to receive her, at Lambertonkirk, about the beginning of September 1503, and not before that time.

3. That Margaret shall, before the first day of July 1503, receive legal seizin of all the lands, castles, and other possessions, usually held by the queens dowagers of Scotland; and if there be found insufficient to yield a yearly revenue of two thousand pounds sterling, or the then equivalent sum of six thousand pounds Scotish money, her husband shall assign other lands to compensate the deficiency.

4. That the princess shall be allowed to keep at least twenty-four English servants, besides her Scotish domestics; and her whole household shall be maintained, in due splendor, at the expences of her husband, who shall moreover allow her the yearly sum of a thosand pounds Scotish, or five hundred marks sterling, to be paid in equal sums, at the feasts of Easter and Michaelmas, for her private purse.

5. That int he case of the death of the king her husband, she may either reside in Scotland, or not, at her pleasure; and her jointure shall, in either event, be punctually paid.

6. That the king her father shall pay, as her dower, thirty thousand pieces of gold called angel-nobles, or the equivalent in other English currency; whereof ten thousand are to be paid at Edinburgh, eight days after the consummation of the marriage; other ten thousand at Coldingham on the anniversary of that day 1504; and the last ten thousand before the end of the year 1505.

7. That if Margaret shall die without issue, before the complete payment, the balance shall not be demanded; but if there be progeny the whole shall be paid.

And then the Peace of Ayton:

"No sooner was the agreement of marriage concluded, than the comissioners proceeded to a yet more important negotiation. On the twenty-fourth of the same month of January, 1502, a perpetual peace was concluded between England and Scotland, upon the following terms.

I. In all times to come there shall be an inviolable peace between the two kings, their heirs, and lawful hereditary successors; and their dominions, and subjects of every denomination.

2. Neither of the said Kings, nor of their successors, shall favour rebels against each other, but shall imprison, and deliver them up, if in their power.

3. All safe-conducts, or promises of protection,g ranted by either king to subjects of the other, of whatever rank, shall be recalled; and never renewed except by consent of their own sovereign, and even in that case of one year only.

4. If either king be attacked, the other shall assist him with as many forces, and as often, as required, provided that the assisting troops be paid by the monarch assailed: nor shall any former league be urged as an obstacle to this agreement.

5. The Scotish king shall not molest, nor besiege, the town, or castle, of Berwick; nor shall their inhabitants disturb the Scotish subjects.

6. The allies of both kings to be comprehended, if they chuse; namely the kings of the Romans, France, Spain, Denmark, and the archduke of Austria, for both; Venice, Ferrara, Savoy, the Hanse Towns, for England: Alsace, Cleves, Brandenburg, for Scotland: their consenet to be notified within eight months, else they shall be regarded as excluded: and either King may assist his ally, if attacked by the other; but not by an invasion of each other's dominions.

7. No violation of this treaty, by the subjects of either realm, shall be construed a decisive infringement; but in case of a delay of redress by either monarch, he whose subjects are injured may grant reprisals, either by land or sea, according to the wrong.

8. The death of James, or Margaret, before marriage, shall not frustrate this pacification, except either of the kings or their heirs shall notify, within two months after such an event,t hat he withdraws from the treaty: but even in this case the truce of 1499, for the life of the survivor, is to remain in full effect.

9. The successors to either kingdom shall ratify the alliance, within six months after their accession. The contracting kings shall swear observance of this treaty, within three months after the marriage: and, finally, the sanction of the pontiff to this peace shall be obtained before the first of July 1503, and the violator shall incur excommunication.

Thus was a pacification established between England and Scotland, being the first since the year 1332, when Edward III infringed that concluded with Robert I. The nations had suffered one hundred and seventy years of wars, and dubious truces. Untaught by experience, they were agian, in the course of ten years, to resume their ancient enmity."
 
Velasco said:
Because I'm a huge nerd and love reading such things, and some of you might too, here's transcripts of some medieval documents from this period, more or less: a marriage contract and a peace treaty.​

The Marriage of James IV and Margaret Tudor
I. That James shall at Candlemas next, personally or by proxy, marry the princess Margaret, who had attained the nubile age of twelve years on the thirtieth day of last November; and that no exceptions shall be made on account of consanguinity, that bar being removed by the papal dispensation.

2. That the princess shall be conducted into Scotland, at the expence of her father; and shall be delivered to her husband, or to any personages impowered by him to receive her, at Lambertonkirk, about the beginning of September 1503, and not before that time.

3. That Margaret shall, before the first day of July 1503, receive legal seizin of all the lands, castles, and other possessions, usually held by the queens dowagers of Scotland; and if there be found insufficient to yield a yearly revenue of two thousand pounds sterling, or the then equivalent sum of six thousand pounds Scotish money, her husband shall assign other lands to compensate the deficiency.

4. That the princess shall be allowed to keep at least twenty-four English servants, besides her Scotish domestics; and her whole household shall be maintained, in due splendor, at the expences of her husband, who shall moreover allow her the yearly sum of a thosand pounds Scotish, or five hundred marks sterling, to be paid in equal sums, at the feasts of Easter and Michaelmas, for her private purse.

5. That int he case of the death of the king her husband, she may either reside in Scotland, or not, at her pleasure; and her jointure shall, in either event, be punctually paid.

6. That the king her father shall pay, as her dower, thirty thousand pieces of gold called angel-nobles, or the equivalent in other English currency; whereof ten thousand are to be paid at Edinburgh, eight days after the consummation of the marriage; other ten thousand at Coldingham on the anniversary of that day 1504; and the last ten thousand before the end of the year 1505.

7. That if Margaret shall die without issue, before the complete payment, the balance shall not be demanded; but if there be progeny the whole shall be paid.

And then the Peace of Ayton:

"No sooner was the agreement of marriage concluded, than the comissioners proceeded to a yet more important negotiation. On the twenty-fourth of the same month of January, 1502, a perpetual peace was concluded between England and Scotland, upon the following terms.

I. In all times to come there shall be an inviolable peace between the two kings, their heirs, and lawful hereditary successors; and their dominions, and subjects of every denomination.

2. Neither of the said Kings, nor of their successors, shall favour rebels against each other, but shall imprison, and deliver them up, if in their power.

3. All safe-conducts, or promises of protection,g ranted by either king to subjects of the other, of whatever rank, shall be recalled; and never renewed except by consent of their own sovereign, and even in that case of one year only.

4. If either king be attacked, the other shall assist him with as many forces, and as often, as required, provided that the assisting troops be paid by the monarch assailed: nor shall any former league be urged as an obstacle to this agreement.

5. The Scotish king shall not molest, nor besiege, the town, or castle, of Berwick; nor shall their inhabitants disturb the Scotish subjects.

6. The allies of both kings to be comprehended, if they chuse; namely the kings of the Romans, France, Spain, Denmark, and the archduke of Austria, for both; Venice, Ferrara, Savoy, the Hanse Towns, for England: Alsace, Cleves, Brandenburg, for Scotland: their consenet to be notified within eight months, else they shall be regarded as excluded: and either King may assist his ally, if attacked by the other; but not by an invasion of each other's dominions.

7. No violation of this treaty, by the subjects of either realm, shall be construed a decisive infringement; but in case of a delay of redress by either monarch, he whose subjects are injured may grant reprisals, either by land or sea, according to the wrong.

8. The death of James, or Margaret, before marriage, shall not frustrate this pacification, except either of the kings or their heirs shall notify, within two months after such an event,t hat he withdraws from the treaty: but even in this case the truce of 1499, for the life of the survivor, is to remain in full effect.

9. The successors to either kingdom shall ratify the alliance, within six months after their accession. The contracting kings shall swear observance of this treaty, within three months after the marriage: and, finally, the sanction of the pontiff to this peace shall be obtained before the first of July 1503, and the violator shall incur excommunication.

Thus was a pacification established between England and Scotland, being the first since the year 1332, when Edward III infringed that concluded with Robert I. The nations had suffered one hundred and seventy years of wars, and dubious truces. Untaught by experience, they were agian, in the course of ten years, to resume their ancient enmity."
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I love "The nubile age of 12."

Because when I think nubile, I think 12 year olds *JOKE! JOKE!*
 
@kızıl sultan, just need some military and economic info about Milan from you and ready to go ;)

Btw, Bramante and Da Vinci were OTL by this time period employed at Milan. Does Da Vinci still work for me and do I have Bramante as my court architect like OTL ?
 
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Velasco said:
Because I'm a huge nerd and love reading such things, and some of you might too, here's transcripts of some medieval documents from this period, more or less: a marriage contract and a peace treaty.​

The Marriage of James IV and Margaret Tudor
I. That James shall at Candlemas next, personally or by proxy, marry the princess Margaret, who had attained the nubile age of twelve years on the thirtieth day of last November; and that no exceptions shall be made on account of consanguinity, that bar being removed by the papal dispensation.

2. That the princess shall be conducted into Scotland, at the expence of her father; and shall be delivered to her husband, or to any personages impowered by him to receive her, at Lambertonkirk, about the beginning of September 1503, and not before that time.

3. That Margaret shall, before the first day of July 1503, receive legal seizin of all the lands, castles, and other possessions, usually held by the queens dowagers of Scotland; and if there be found insufficient to yield a yearly revenue of two thousand pounds sterling, or the then equivalent sum of six thousand pounds Scotish money, her husband shall assign other lands to compensate the deficiency.

4. That the princess shall be allowed to keep at least twenty-four English servants, besides her Scotish domestics; and her whole household shall be maintained, in due splendor, at the expences of her husband, who shall moreover allow her the yearly sum of a thosand pounds Scotish, or five hundred marks sterling, to be paid in equal sums, at the feasts of Easter and Michaelmas, for her private purse.

5. That int he case of the death of the king her husband, she may either reside in Scotland, or not, at her pleasure; and her jointure shall, in either event, be punctually paid.

6. That the king her father shall pay, as her dower, thirty thousand pieces of gold called angel-nobles, or the equivalent in other English currency; whereof ten thousand are to be paid at Edinburgh, eight days after the consummation of the marriage; other ten thousand at Coldingham on the anniversary of that day 1504; and the last ten thousand before the end of the year 1505.

7. That if Margaret shall die without issue, before the complete payment, the balance shall not be demanded; but if there be progeny the whole shall be paid.

And then the Peace of Ayton:

"No sooner was the agreement of marriage concluded, than the comissioners proceeded to a yet more important negotiation. On the twenty-fourth of the same month of January, 1502, a perpetual peace was concluded between England and Scotland, upon the following terms.

I. In all times to come there shall be an inviolable peace between the two kings, their heirs, and lawful hereditary successors; and their dominions, and subjects of every denomination.

2. Neither of the said Kings, nor of their successors, shall favour rebels against each other, but shall imprison, and deliver them up, if in their power.

3. All safe-conducts, or promises of protection,g ranted by either king to subjects of the other, of whatever rank, shall be recalled; and never renewed except by consent of their own sovereign, and even in that case of one year only.

4. If either king be attacked, the other shall assist him with as many forces, and as often, as required, provided that the assisting troops be paid by the monarch assailed: nor shall any former league be urged as an obstacle to this agreement.

5. The Scotish king shall not molest, nor besiege, the town, or castle, of Berwick; nor shall their inhabitants disturb the Scotish subjects.

6. The allies of both kings to be comprehended, if they chuse; namely the kings of the Romans, France, Spain, Denmark, and the archduke of Austria, for both; Venice, Ferrara, Savoy, the Hanse Towns, for England: Alsace, Cleves, Brandenburg, for Scotland: their consenet to be notified within eight months, else they shall be regarded as excluded: and either King may assist his ally, if attacked by the other; but not by an invasion of each other's dominions.

7. No violation of this treaty, by the subjects of either realm, shall be construed a decisive infringement; but in case of a delay of redress by either monarch, he whose subjects are injured may grant reprisals, either by land or sea, according to the wrong.

8. The death of James, or Margaret, before marriage, shall not frustrate this pacification, except either of the kings or their heirs shall notify, within two months after such an event,t hat he withdraws from the treaty: but even in this case the truce of 1499, for the life of the survivor, is to remain in full effect.

9. The successors to either kingdom shall ratify the alliance, within six months after their accession. The contracting kings shall swear observance of this treaty, within three months after the marriage: and, finally, the sanction of the pontiff to this peace shall be obtained before the first of July 1503, and the violator shall incur excommunication.

Thus was a pacification established between England and Scotland, being the first since the year 1332, when Edward III infringed that concluded with Robert I. The nations had suffered one hundred and seventy years of wars, and dubious truces. Untaught by experience, they were agian, in the course of ten years, to resume their ancient enmity."
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Huh, would you look at that. A good faith effort at a long lasting peace, conducted on a basis of two equal individuals coming to terms. If only...
 
Rolling childbirth for:

Ludovico Sforza x Beatrice d'Este:
A little healthy boy named Giovanni
Gian Galeazzo Sforza x Isabella of Naples:
A sickly boy named Hercules
Mrmastro threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Beatrice Total: 176
82 82 54 54 40 40
Mrmastro threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Isabella Total: 89
65 65 22 22 2 2
Mrmastro threw 1 70-faced dice. Reason: Inbreeding Total: 23
23 23
 
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Velasco said:
The notion of "not having NPC targets around" is a bit :confused:
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Velasco said:
Can anyone here help a brother out with some sweet JSTOR access?
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Yea, I would have thought having all of these players in Europe like this was a good idea and would prove interesting and fun. Also Fuck JSTOR. Shit's trash. Islamicus Indexicus is where it's at player.

Mrmastro said:
I will gladly take it :)
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Mrmastro said:
@kızıl sultan, just need some military and economic info about Milan from you and ready to go ;)

Btw, Bramante and Da Vinci were OTL by this time period employed at Milan. Does Da Vinci still work for me and do I have Bramante as my court architect like OTL ?
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I am very happy that you've decided to take Milan up, they are overlooked and have a lot of potential. Da Vinci is in Florence at the moment, as the historical alterations of the Point of Divergence started in 1473 and things slightly altered up until present day. There will be others. You can have Bramante considering he sort of moved there before serious alterations occurred.

Population: 1.25 Million
Military Capacity: 80,000
Naval Capacity: N/A
Economy: Impressive

Watercress said:
Oh yes, need my figures for Livonia as well @kızıl sultan
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Population: 0.75 Million
Military Capacity: 50,000 men-at-arms and 2,500 Knights (the latter are permanently mobilized as they are a military order)
Naval Capacity: 15 Galleys
Economy: Growing
 
Theravis said:
Eh. You're busy.
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To be fair I am working on an interactive event for you.

Mrmastro said:
I threw a dice a hour ago or so, and a boy was born sickly. The table says something about sickness rolls:
"21-40: Sickly. All future rolls regarding health or lifespan are at -10."
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That's most likely for my consideration. In the period, most sickly children die because it turns out they actually had some serious shit like TB. You should probably bank on having some more sons. In your turnpost, when/if you make a family tree, please note that the boy is sickly.
 
Mrmastro said:
I threw a dice a hour ago or so, and a boy was born sickly. The table says something about sickness rolls:
"21-40: Sickly. All future rolls regarding health or lifespan are at -10."
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Aha! That's a holdover from my system. Don't know if the relevant bits ported with it.
 
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