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@Rihaku why are you putting so many points into water whip? We don't even have confirmation on what benefit leveling that has.

My understanding is that it is a primary combat technique that can be used to contest enemy attacks and defenses, since it mentions the whip being able to constrict objects itself, implying it's moved by chakra control rather than muscles. Thus it should be able to strike and block with the technique dicepool. If that is not the case, we can drop it for Taijutsu or Weapons instead and get 3 xp for free (and save a ton of chakra). We could use those 3 points to level Vampire Dew, but I would need to slightly change Strategic Hunting in that case.

@eaglejarl, @AugSphere, is Water Whip's user able to perform attacks and defenses with the Technique rank as dicepool, or does it do something else?
 
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Strategic Hunting already needs to change, it was dependent on the swamp being how you saw it, as not chest-high to a genin.

Additionally, we're not just going to be able to burn 25 chakra a turn and last six turns. I would like to see that math, please. Even with the battery type, we don't know that we can so easily get a drink when we're being accosted for six turns in a row.
 
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Finally read through this whole thread and made an account. Time to participate.

First of all, can anyone point out the current differences between Plan Red Team and Plan Frozen Gatorade? All the editing and such kinda threw me off and they seem really similar besides that. Maybe you could give me a link to the most recent and up to date versions of those posts?

Regarding making the male the Vampire Dew user because he is larger, that is only the case if we make it so. I don't see the issue with making Keiko a large girl (be it height, hips or anything else). Girls don't always have to have a generic anime figure after all.

I just don't see a character who's unable to propose original courses of action as being able to write complex control flow.

I think his problem is supposed to be more of an issue of not knowing what to do as opposed to how to do it. If I recall correctly it is described as a lack of initiative first and foremost, not a lack of rational thought or even really creativity. That fits perfectly with Sealing as long as he got guided through making his first seals (and the "programming library" that goes with it) and is pretty much unable to make any original seals other than proposed ones. In fact a bloodline user of his kind should be really good at improving designs in general, be it city layout, engineering or anything else. Just don't expect them to come up with an invention or plan to start with because they don't know what is needed. And anyway, if he really had zero creativity he couldn't logically use the proposed bloodline anyway. You have to be creative to shore up plans. Otherwise he'd just be someone perfect at calculations and plan executions, which I am sure is not what Rihaku was going for.

I myself actually struggle with this very problem. Good at seeing flaws and suggesting fixes, including when it comes to character creation or world-building within the context of creative writing, but don't expect me to write a story of my own. Less because I don't have any ideas and more because I just can't pinpoint a good starting point. For anything. Pretty horrible when I have to come up with a good study project too, if I don't have a partner choosing the subject and laying some basic groundwork. Again, lack of initiative, not creativity.

tl;dr - Non-research Seal-crafting really shouldn't be an issue for Frozen Stein users.

To the Mist it gave deep social anxiety. They are extraordinarily reticent, and suffer from critically over-thinking social dynamics. This leads to shyness in the young, developing into stiff, reserved formality later on. They are deeply reluctant to give offense or seem overbearing, and this nature prevents them from expressing their intelligence well in heated planning processes. This can be partially overcome with time and socialization, but it is unheard of for a member of the Frozen Skein to naturally take to any leadership role. Imaginable and doable with time and effort, but Skein users have to practice twice as hard to lead half as well.

I really dislike this one. Not only because I don't like over the top socially anxious characters in anime-based fiction (they're infuriating to watch) but also because if this is his balancing flaw then what stops him from making stupendous plans when he has to do so all on his own? I'd go so far as to vote against the whole Stein concept if that version becomes the only one approved by AugSphere.

Anyway, preliminary vote:

[X] Plan Red Team or Plan Frozen Gatorade
[X] Swamp (hunting, scouting)

Secondary preferences of low priority:
- [X] Frozen Stein user is male with Wind Affinity
- [X] Vampire Dew user is large and female
 
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First of all, can anyone point out the current differences between Plan Red Team and Plan Frozen Gatorade
We're disagreeing on how to distribute the points for the Vampire Dew build. Also the Strategic Hunting plan, which was based on both information that has been invalidated, skills we don't have, and depends on Shikigami not actually giving us any instruction.
 
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Strategic Hunting already needs to change, it was dependent on the swamp being how you saw it, as not chest-high to a genin.

Additionally, we're not just going to be able to burn 25 chakra a turn and last six turns. I would like to see that math, please.

The swamp does have elevated places, including the very mountainous island we're standing on. We can use a ledge on island itself as the staging point. Please make a final decision soon, I need to go to sleep.

The team has 160 total chakra at maxed Chakra Control 3. That means 6 (25 x 6) turns of peak expenditure per ~day, without factoring Water Whip's cost.

At 190 total chakra, we would have almost 8 (25 x 8) turns of peak expenditure per day, an increase of nearly 30%.

I don't expect individual fights to take more than ~3-4 turns except under unusual conditions, but at max supercharge we personally are able to run 6.5 turns of peak expenditure (65 / 10).
 
Note: I'm pretty sure a lot of users (myself included) are about to go to bed. Given that, we need to collapse onto ONE plan. Both Red and Frozen Gatorade seem decent. Let's just pick the one with the most current votes and all vote for that, because otherwise we risk getting outvoted by people who just said "hunt" or something.
 
I'm going to add a contingency for Vampire Dew in case Water Whip does not allow attacks and defenses rolled with its Rank, and make the edits in my compromise proposal. After that, I'm going to sleep.
 
I don't like the idea of plot armor bloodline character. To me, the idea of a rational quest means that what we decide should matter, and either we trust the people running the game, or we don't. There seems to be a lot of discussion of how to make it work in a way that creates a safety without making a socially/mental model broken character.
 
I don't like the idea of plot armor bloodline character. To me, the idea of a rational quest means that what we decide should matter, and either we trust the people running the game, or we don't. There seems to be a lot of discussion of how to make it work in a way that creates a safety without making a socially/mental model broken character.
Plot armor was a bit of an exaggeration. It provides a way out, but not a guaranteed way out (at least that's my interpretation of it). It certainly doesn't make us invincible, and it doesn't change the impact we can have on the world. It's basically an emergency fallback if we mess up due to not asking the QMs enough random questions which our character would have known the answer to.
 
Also, getting used to plot armor, and potentially losing it due to splitting the party, character death, or consequences of decisions we make will have a potentially large impact.
 
Also, getting used to plot armor, and potentially losing it due to splitting the party, character death, or consequences of decisions we make will have a potentially large impact.
What I was calling "plot armor" is actually this ability, which isn't really plot armor to the extent it's normally used in literature:

*A Frankly, Terrible Idea: The genius of the Skein, pushed to the fore by immediate danger, can turn a catastrophic plan merely bad... and some bad plans barely adequate. This is typically resolved narratively, but if a mechanical resolution is called for, their adjustments can offer an impressive (usually +2d) bonus when against utterly overwhelming odds, and a significant (+1d) bonus against bad odds. Alternatively, the negative consequences of a failure are decreased by some margin. This ability is not perfectly consistent and may fail due to GM fiat.

Fine, fuck it. It's not like I regretted anything the last time I gave up the vote.

[X] Plan Red Team

Well, if you're changing votes, I probably should too.

[X] Plan Red Team
 
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@transfuturist Your two versions of Frozen Skein seem identical except that yours somehow lacks two points in Taijutsu and I can't find where those points are instead.

I guess the main differences are in Vampire Dew's skills and techniques?

Edit: Huh. I was actually thinking hard on which of the two Gatorade builds was better.
 
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Doesn't include Frozen Skein (this in notable, Frozen Skein is mildly akin to plot armor - if our plan has a gaping hole in it because we misinterpreted something and it would otherwise kill us, Frozen Skein will tell us that and modify the plan accordingly)

I don't like the idea of plot armor bloodline character. To me, the idea of a rational quest means that what we decide should matter, and either we trust the people running the game, or we don't. There seems to be a lot of discussion of how to make it work in a way that creates a safety without making a socially/mental model broken character.

Think of it less as plot armor and more as a counter to the fact that we can't adapt our plans when unexpected circumstances throw us off in the middle of a story post. We decide what is smart beforehand without actually seeing anything happening yet and our team mate does the obvious common sense things that we couldn't possibly think of because we are not actually in the world at the same time as things play out.
 
Think of it less as plot armor and more as a counter to the fact that we can't adapt our plans when unexpected circumstances throw us off in the middle of a story post. We decide what is smart beforehand without actually seeing anything happening yet and our team mate does the obvious common sense things that we couldn't possibly think of because we are not actually in the world at the same time as things play out.
Agreed, plot armor was a poor wording choice motivated by tiredness and laziness. I've edited that post to be more indicative of what it actually does, so any people who log on before voting is finished and read that analysis post understand. Anyways, I'm out now. Happy voting people who are left! I'm excited to see what we wind up with :)
 
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As it looks likely that we are to braves the swamps I have started looking up things for us to look for in terms of valuable resources aside from firewood. We should be on the lookout for peat and see if we can't find sources of natural gas to map out for large scale harnessing once we have the spare manpower. If we are going to be building a village here within the swamp we should try and move up the tech tree as quickly as our situation will allow, or else have things in place that will allow us to rocket up once we are able to be relatively out in the open.

A source of natural gas would be very helpful in getting fire started for use in driving steam engines for what ever purpose they should be needed for, such as draining an area of the swamp so that proper foundations can be laid for building stilt houses. I doubt we could get many tree houses built so that they would provide enough living space for those that join us or house even a makeshift hospital area on top of a barracks. the caves will only serve us for so long as they will be flooding soon, I've no doubt about that with the types of animals that call the swamp its home. Our supplies would be much safer stored up in a tree and not in a cave that might soon house lots of water. Anything that can stand a dunk or too might be OK, so long as we don't need anything in a hurry.

I believe we should think about what it will take to set up a township here within the swamp and work out what we are scouting for when doing our mission, either the town infiltration or the swamp scouting. That is the goal that our leader has decided we should do and unless we can think up very good reasons not to do so we should think about how best to help with this goal.
 
As it looks likely that we are to braves the swamps I have started looking up things for us to look for in terms of valuable resources aside from firewood. We should be on the lookout for peat and see if we can't find sources of natural gas to map out for large scale harnessing once we have the spare manpower. If we are going to be building a village here within the swamp we should try and move up the tech tree as quickly as our situation will allow, or else have things in place that will allow us to rocket up once we are able to be relatively out in the open.

A source of natural gas would be very helpful in getting fire started for use in driving steam engines for what ever purpose they should be needed for, such as draining an area of the swamp so that proper foundations can be laid for building stilt houses. I doubt we could get many tree houses built so that they would provide enough living space for those that join us or house even a makeshift hospital area on top of a barracks. the caves will only serve us for so long as they will be flooding soon, I've no doubt about that with the types of animals that call the swamp its home. Our supplies would be much safer stored up in a tree and not in a cave that might soon house lots of water. Anything that can stand a dunk or too might be OK, so long as we don't need anything in a hurry.

I believe we should think about what it will take to set up a township here within the swamp and work out what we are scouting for when doing our mission, either the town infiltration or the swamp scouting. That is the goal that our leader has decided we should do and unless we can think up very good reasons not to do so we should think about how best to help with this goal.
There's probably no small number of poisonous fauna or flora here, either. If we can identify what's poisonous, how poisonous it is, and what type of poison it is, we can probably both arm ourselves and make a pretty penny selling to the village.
 
I really don't like the comparison to a plot armor at all. I played a game where my friend was a DM and I'm a completely clueless player. Eventually, somewhat early on he gave me the option to get a feat "Intuition" that would clue me in on what to do next. I still could mess things up, but at least I wouldn't get stuck anymore trying to figure out the clues that the DM has been giving me.

Frozen Skein isn't plot armor at all. That would imply that a Deus ex machina would appear to bail us out of trouble and it's not. It has been confirmed that if the moon is falling on our heads then there isn't going to be a damn thing the MC can do about it.

This is more along the lines of Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit. Without the major gap in abilities.

BMX bandit will propose a very overcomplicated plan, but then the Angel Summoner will point out that "... or we could summon a horde of angels."

Never have I seen Angel Summoner take the initiative and a leadership role. He is more of a voice of conscience and common sense.

In case nobody knows what I'm talking about:

 
Alright, here's my plan.

Revised version 1.3

[X] Plan Red Team
-[X] Use the indicated builds below for Mori and Waka
-[X] Earth Affinity for us
-[X] Use at least part of the free day to acquire Water-Walking and Tactical Movement 1
-[X] Mission: Strategic Hunting - Ask Shikigami-sensei what tactics he would recommend we use to hunt safely. Ask Skein user to check over our plan and make any adjustments before we enter the field.* Baseline plan: Have our ranged attacker create disturbances in the water at maximum range, while standing in an elevated position with a rock face between himself and the target area. He should peek out only the minimum amount required to maintain line of sight to the target area. Upon attracting targets, strangle them with a water ninjutsu. If additional firepower is needed, have our weapon user throw kunai and shruiken, but change areas between every downed target. We ourselves should hang back behind the rock face in a crouched position, minimizing our target profile, ready to pull our teammates out of trouble and engage any nasty surprises. The elevated area where we set up should not be surrounded by water on more than two sides, if at all possible. Observe animal behavior, see if any species are stupid or predictable enough for man-made traps to capture. The presence of a large alligator population indicates a huge prey animal population, as they are apex predators.

Why Red? Because Red is the color of ACTION, and arbitrary designations will unify us, promoting teamwork!

Mori -

Frozen Skein [30]

Dex 2 [4], Wits 2 [4], Capacity 3 [10], Regen 3 [5], Other Stats 1

Awareness 3 [3]
Weapons 4 [7]
Tactical Movement 4 [10]
Stealth 2
Taijutsu 2
Sealing 0 [Monomaniacal]

Wind Level 2

Techniques:

Dispel [1]
Water-Walking [1]
Basic 3

Waka -

Vampiric Dew [30] - It is believed that at the twilight of the gods, the Warrior, Susano'o, God of Storm and Tide, cast his form into a mortal shell, uniting Yin and Yang into a body that would walk this earth incarnate. Such was his supernal grace that the Chakra of his divine authority could not be contained within a physical form, so instead he imbued it into a bright nimbus of mist that hung about his shoulders. Themselves blessed with supernaturally potent chakra, the users of the Vampiric Dew believe themselves descended from the God of Storms. Their eternal aspiration: to return to the glories of old, becoming one with the chakra that resides in their water and thereby unbinding their physical forms. Then they will roam, unchained and immanent, as a god across this world again...

Wits 2 [4], Control 4 [18], Others 1

Awareness 4 [7]
Taijutsu 2
Weapons 2
Stealth 2
Tac Move 1 [1]

Water Element - Level 2

Techniques:

Water Whip Technique 4 [10]

Water-Walking [1]
Vampire Dew 2 [3]
Condense Water [1]

Basic 3

CONTINGENCY - As of last edit there was not yet GM clarification on whether Water Whip can be used as a primary attack and defense jutsu. In the event that it cannot, the following build should be used:

FIRST OPTION - Replace Water Whip with any reasonably versatile Water-Based Jutsu that can roll its Rank to attack and defend.

SECOND OPTION - Replace with a Weapon-based build, which I will edit in after I wake up. Too tired right now. But I think this is unlikely, it is almost certain that we would have access to at least one Water-based Jutsu that can attack and defend.

---

Notes:

I still prefer Waka to be the Dew user, because a large male has more space in his body to accommodate eventual mad science water bladders, neutralizing his reliance on the barrel. However, this is not an adamant preference and if there is a substantial advantage to Keiko being the Dew user, I could be convinced to switch.

Since Techniques are as expensive as Skills to level, I wanted our ninjutsu user to have a pretty versatile and powerful technique. I hope the very strict Control requirement helps balance the fact that it's moderately more useful than most techniques; the cost makes it a bit all-or-nothing similar to Puppetry, in exchange for similar advantages. I do think it's still substantially less versatile than Shadow Clone and other mainstay Naruto techniques, even if it is applicable in more situations than Grand Fireball. If disallowed, substitute Undersea Guardian Technique with the most versatile water animation technique we are allowed. Its defensive aspects are the most important, since it's Waka's primary defense. In combat, members of this clan basically serve as a cross between a Suna Puppeteer and an Akimichi.

Awareness is the most critical defensive Skill bar none (Combat Skills excluded), so I maxed it on both characters. With multiple Awareness 4 checks we should hopefully be able to stop any alligator surprises.

Keiko is our versatile fixer character that is capable of rapidly moving around the battlefield while being effective at any range. She can kite enemies with her high movement + attack capabilities, while her ranged attack focus allows her to perform timely interventions across any area of the battlefield.

This team is extremely capable in combat, but high Wits leaves open the opportunity for relatively swift development of social defenses. Social offense should not take valuable XP as reasoned arguments don't require a Skill to employ. Ideally, at least one member of our party will have high Resist Intimidate, and another member will have high Resist Fast-Talk, so that they can snap the others out of nasty social attacks.

*This should be assumed to be automatically included in any future plan.

[X] Earth affinity
[X] Plan Frozen Gatorade
-[X] Mori Keiko the Frozen Sanity-Checker
-[X] Wakahisa Noburi the Gatorade Ninja
-[X] Swamp (hunt, scout)
-[X] If we have the day to train, level Hazou's Tactical Movement and Water-walking.
-[X] Have Mori go over our plans when able.

Wakahisa Noburi is as Mori Keiko was in my previous vote.

Stocky Build, all the better to hide behind???

2 Wits, 2 Dexterity, 3 Control
Water Affinity = 2
Vampire Dew bloodline (Hozon Mizuhakeru)

3 Awareness, 2 Tactical Movement, 3 Stealth, 1 Wall-walking, 1 Water-walking, 1 Knowledge: Deadly Swamp
4 Suiton: Mizuhakeru, 2 Suiton: Water Whip, 1 Condense Water
1 Unspent XP

Mori Keiko is as in Rihaku's partially vetoed Plan Red Team.

2 Wits, 2 Dexterity, 3 Capacity, 3 Regen
Wind Affinity = 2
Frozen Skein bloodline, Sealing Monomaniac

4 Weapons, 3 Awareness, 4 Tactical Movement, 2 Stealth, 1 Water-walking
1 Dispel
0 Unspent XP

@Rafin as requested:
Difference in distribution of Vampire dew team-mate from Rihaku to transfuturists plans:
-1 control(+8),
-1 awareness(+4),
-2 water-whip(+7),
+1 dex(-4),
+1 tac move(-2),
+1 stealth(-3),
+1 wall-walking(-1),
+1 knowledge: deadly swamp(-1),
+2 vampire dew(-7),

19-18 gives, as stated:
+1 unspent

At the moment, the difference I can see between these, after all the editing is whether to focus on the bloodline-ability or the water whip ability of the team-mate, in addition to a philosophical disagreement on whether flexibility or power is best.

One major difference is that we, in transfuturists plan, do not have a team-mate with 4 awareness(instead of a spread of 4, 3, 2 we have 3, 3, 2).
The roof of our bloodline-ability is also lower, in additon to having less chakra available. This is problematic since this build is intended to focus on the bloodline-ability(it seems to me at least).

On the plus-side, this character has more defense and survivability in the form of tac-move, stealth, wall-walking and knowledge.

So what is more important: survivability or specialisation?

To my mind, we have a team intended to cover each others backs. This character is meant for battlefield-control while we protect him. If we were to operate alone or in a team with less synergy, survivability would be valued higher. Given that the team is designed to work as part of a larger whole and we have backup in the form of each other, Rihakus version is preferred.

The other major difference is in the stated mission of the plan.
Transfuturists and Rihakus both have the same goal: go into the swamp and gather information / resources.

The difference is in the amount of detail and contingencies included and that it has checking with Shikigami-sensei as he stated we should.
With that in mind Rihakus seems like the better version.


TL;DR: Rihakus plan has detailed contingencies and fall-backs. Otherwise there are (comparatively) minor differences in statting of team-mates.

With all that in mind my vote goes like the following:
[X] Plan Red Team

Fine, fuck it. It's not like I regretted anything the last time I gave up the vote. Is Rihaku the only one anyone votes for or something?

The main difference is that the aims of the plan are stated and the degree of specificity with which to implement it is far greater(in this edited version it even corresponds to "reality"). It has contingencies as explicit parts of the plan. That combined with relatively minor differences (comparatively) in distribution of stat-points means Rihakus plan is preferred. No slight on your part intended. I think your plans are good. It is also good to have more analysis and discussion so that we actually can figure out the state of the world and make appropriate plans and act as fault-checkers for each other. Make no mistake, yours (and everyone elses) contributions are appreciated. <3


Second: I'm starting to get irked by the prevailing attitude (and this is addressed to multiple people) that until the MC is a jonin demigod he "doesn't matter". Yes, he can't affect international politics until then. Having the character play at that level is not required to have fun and have a good story.

Think of it as us getting into character. Raging at the unfairness of the world, being scared and paranoid, somewhat bitter at the stress he's under and the lack of better choices that put him in this situation. Wishing he had the power to change the world and bitterly fantasizing about how much easier things would be. Then getting hit in the face with an alligator and forced to contend with what is instead of what he thinks should be. It's completely normal to wish everything was better.
And we have a lot of time for introspection and actual gods we can supplicate for mercy.
Of course we're going to irk you. Instead revel in the power our supplications give you (you take power from followers right?) and let our ranting inspire the pleas of your characters.

And, in case it isn't clear, I am having lots of fun, and enjoying everything so far. Creds to the QM-gods. <3
May our supplication please the masters.
 
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