Satan Sent Me to Save Capitalism from Catholics: Let's Read David Weber's Safehold

One of the things I do think these books genuinely do well is express how terrifying a genuinely superhumanly strong and fast combatant is in melee combat. I'll even compliment them in that it doesn't much overuse it either-Merlin being able to cut through dozens of soldiers comes up just enough to be an entertainingly brutal fight once or twice a book IIRC while still not actually being all that decisive, plot wise.

I just wish Weber had that level of restraint for his other abilities.

One thing I think Weber consistently does well is for lack of a better word, carnage-conveying the utter brutality of combat and deadly power of weaponry at both infantry and ship scale…only nowadays its always in service of protagonists crushing their enemies instead of a genuine exchange of blows that leaves heaps of bodies on both sides like his earlier works.

As I recall it, Merlin's feats actually stop being so centered as the series goes on, too, so it's generally an effective use of him, to make sure he doesn't get too dull by having 'headlining' fights that are too common/similar. I really do think you're right about what's good with this!

And thanks to all four of you who had information on the addressing of nobles! This really just is a little outside my wheel house, so I'm glad to have people check on bits I don't know.
 
Doing the same thing but worse and thirty times longer isn't it.
Path of the Fury was OK, as was Out Of The Dark.

I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he did a redo of The Apocalypse Troll. Given that he's openly sided with IRL versions of the baddies from it…
 
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I must admit I have a soft spot for Safehold as I read the first two-thirds of the books when I was a teenager rapidly ideologically pivoting from a far-right Republican Mormon upbringing into... not that. There's a lot of parallels in any high-control religious organization, so I read a lot into this particular Evil Church from my own personal experience.

But yeah there's a lot of really weird shit in here and the last couple books show Weber really had no idea how to end the premise.
 
I must admit I have a soft spot for Safehold as I read the first two-thirds of the books when I was a teenager rapidly ideologically pivoting from a far-right Republican Mormon upbringing into... not that. There's a lot of parallels in any high-control religious organization, so I read a lot into this particular Evil Church from my own personal experience.

But yeah there's a lot of really weird shit in here and the last couple books show Weber really had no idea how to end the premise.

Which is weird as it seems like a pretty easy premise to end. But Weber basically ends it in the middle of the actual story.

Also I like how he mentioned on the forum that people should stop reading into religious vibes, Safehold is not about religion at all, why would you think that?!
 
Then I look over my notes and just start swearing under my breath. You know how Charis is England? And these traitors are all secretly loyal to a nearby island nation that should be loyal to England-Charis and isn't? And the reason they're disloyal is because they're too Catholic? And so that's why all these traitors do terrorist actions here or whatever? Yeah, that's why we have to defeat Prince Nahrmahn and the nation he rules, which is Emerald. That's the Safehold name. For what totally isn't the Emerald Isle, as England manifests its divine destiny to absorb Ireland and properly rule over it as part of our infinitely righteous United Kingdom.
I'm sure the deep grievances Ireland holds towards England will be explored in a meaningful and rich way. Surely my long held axiom that the closer Weber gets to Earth the worse his politics get will be broken. I wonder if we're tilting against resistance to Cromwell, general discontent with English rule and the primacy of Catholicism, or Republicanism writ large?
 
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Ah, so what is it about, then? :V
The ways religion can be abused. I mean, it's not like Langhorne and the other 'Archangels' were devout Catholics who wanted to recreate the pre-Reformation Church for its own sake. They wanted to create a technologically static world, and adapted a belief system and ecclesiastical structure they had records of in order to achieve that.
 
The ways religion can be abused. I mean, it's not like Langhorne and the other 'Archangels' were devout Catholics who wanted to recreate the pre-Reformation Church for its own sake. They wanted to create a technologically static world, and adapted a belief system and ecclesiastical structure they had records of in order to achieve that.

Weber's post was more along the lines of generic power abuse, because it seemed like he was trying to wiggle out of the fact that people were pointing out that he seems to like having Catholics be villains.

I mean, it isn't really RELIGION that is being abused in the set up, because while the power structure is based around a religion, the abuse stemmed from using technology to force people into the religion that was used to control them. Religion was just the trappings that the brainwashing was given because it suited Langhorne.
 
I mean, it isn't really RELIGION that is being abused in the set up, because while the power structure is based around a religion, the abuse stemmed from using technology to force people into the religion that was used to control them. Religion was just the trappings that the brainwashing was given because it suited Langhorne.

That's pretty much what I said in the post you quoted.
 
That's pretty much what I said in the post you quoted.

Yeah but it really is about painting Catholics as bad. He isn't picking Protestants as the ones doing it despite them being just as bad if not worse.

The idea that it is Not Really About Religion But Instead About People Misusing Religion sounds great but it falls apart when you look at the specifics and his obvious motives.
 
I read like the first two books of Safefold many years ago. What I mostly remember is the massive amount of pages for the amount of plot, combined with a complete lack of narrative tension since the "good guys" always won easily and had massive advantage upon massive advantage. Also, Weber's vendetta against the Catholic Church is quite weird and creepy.
 
Off Armageddon Reef 6: I Had to Rant Again New
Off Armageddon Reef 6: I Had to Rant Again

We see a bit of fall-out after Duke Traitor's death. A minor guy stabs another minor guy to cover Prince Nahrmahn's tracks, then flees, showing that Nahrmahn was definitely a better schemer and would've double-crossed Duke Traitor to get him killed off even if he had succeeded. Villainy won't pay out, ultimately; it's only morally upright people who are allowed to succeed long-term.

We finally see Duke Traitor's wife and kids, and get the sort of scene that you have to enjoy if you're going to enjoy reading Weber's work yourself: there's an emotional scene where King Haarahld meets with a young boy, telling him what he will and won't have to deal with given the fall-out of Duke Traitor's treachery, both "we are family" and "you are one of my dukes, now, which means you have to act like it." We don't know half of these characters; it's people we're only just now meeting. If it clicks with you, it can be emotionally resonant in a very good way, expressing a faith in human nature: 'this is how people normally are, even the young and innocent'. If it doesn't, it's unsupported melodrama. I have to be in the right mood for it to work for me, personally, but you can fall on either side or find something in-between-ish, like I do.

We go from there into Maikel giving a sermon while Duke Traitor is buried in unconsecrated ground (his punishment for traitor-ing). Maikel's sermon is about how important it is to be good and moral and to stand up for what's right, so naturally he's called into Ahdymsyn's office. I haven't mentioned Ahdymsyn before, but in brief there's four primary church officers for Charis: one is a very trusting Inquisitor I won't introduce for a few more updates; skipping him, Archbishop Erayk is the distant lord, who spends most of the year in the Temple proper, skimming money instead of doing useful things. Maikel, the good bishop, ranks third. Ahdymsyn, Bishop Executor, is in-between, and he's really evil and has been not reporting on exactly how bad sentiment is getting in Charis. We see him sweat about how much he could get in trouble and see him internally monologue about how awful it is that most of Charis' clergy are Charisian, instead of the church's usual policy of sending clergy to distant lands. This is "New World Order"-flavored conspiracy shit, basically, where (((they))) want to suppress all our cultures to render us easier to control. Sometimes, including I believe with Weber, the 'they' isn't even intentionally anti-Semitic—these people just hear "there is a cabal of evil actors who want to ruin all that is good and right in the world" and nod along, tuning out before they hear "...and those people are Jews!" I wish Weber hadn't used the name "Zion" for the evil Temple if I'm going to be giving out even this level of tepid defense of the man, though. Wait, I didn't mention that before, did I? I didn't. Yeah, the city around the Temple of God is called Zion. Which is a fucking bad look here. But for people like some of my extended family and I think also David Weber, they feel like the bad actors aren't Jews but are 'just' environmentalists and communists and other people who know that their ideologies would only result in destroying civilization instead of advancing their stated aims. That's why Clyntahn and company are purely evil and nakedly corrupt with no redeeming qualities but aren't notably more Jewish-coded than the rest of the world. Unless I missed that coding. God I hope it's not there for me to miss.

This is turning into a Hard Drive/Onion-style joke: Glowing David Weber Recommendation Only 70% Caveats!

I'm having to veer off course from the plot to give context like this. Back to the eulogy/preaching. This sermon is supposed to be seen as a catalyst. The beloved and righteous Bishop Maikel has given an inspiring speech at a key moment. Because it's putting the responsibilities to act righteously and bear responsibility on the individual, it downplays the role of the Church of God Awaiting as the one who makes moral judgment. It's also very Protestant.

Sprinkled through the last several sections, including here, we get a clearer look at what the signs of Shan-wei are supposed to be, and I'm going to collect it now just so I can point back here later. So, Shan-wei is Satan: fallen Archangel, nearly the greatest of God's agents before her fall, the fountainhead of evil and architect of all horrible things in the world. Shan-wei's greatest crime is that she appealed to men's better natures to trick them. Shan-wei wanted to raise men to be equal to the Archangels, which is an unholy aim, as it will necessarily give mankind access to angelic powers (synonymous with 'higher technology') which they cannot comprehend or hope to use properly. It will always, always, corrupt the user because these powers are inimical to human moral development. So, like, this is the foundational tenet of Safeholdian theology: Shan-wei sends people to appeal to your better nature and offers evil knowledge, which necessarily harms God's Church and leads to strife and horror. This is exactly what has been prophesied as the temptation to watch out for since time began and the world was first created in God's designs through his Archangel Langhorne, an Archangel whose miracles are unquestionably and directly visible in some areas and whom hundreds of disparate people-groups all across Safehold met in person, as their oldest written records can attest.

Keep this in mind. This is what people know is true and how they know it's true. We'll talk at length about how many people are outright eager to pitch the only framing that they've ever heard about, and willing to do so the moment an agent of Shan-wei begins to offer a temptation that they know an agent of Shan-wei will offer to tempt people, with only some of that being later this update.

Back to Erayk and the Temple crew. Erayk is a little outside of the Temple proper, visiting a brothel run by a woman named "Ahnzelyk", which is kind of frustrating to me. The language they're speaking is at least derived from English, possibly still recognizably English, and angel is a very common term, so any names where the meaning is clearly 'angel' shouldn't be morphing separate from the term 'angel'. She'll become important later on and anyway Weber thankfully isn't actually opposed to sex workers, it seems. Erayk is married and it's a moral failing on his part that he isn't faithful, despite the Archangels' rules forbidding 'fornication and adultery'—not a failing on the part of prostitutes that they do skilled labor for money. Also, all priests are required to be married so that they know what their parishioners' lives are like. Also also, Erayk married his wife when she was TWELVE, because Weber isn't subtle. It's implied that they had two sons in a perfunctory manner once she was old enough and now she's off enjoying one of his estates while they ignore each other, but still. Merlin flew over here in his 'recon skimmer' and uses a tech toy to knock Erayk over and break his leg and shoulder badly, so Erayk won't be able to come back to Charis like he was scheduled to do and then send a "holy shit, you guys, Charis has gone off the rails" message.

Then Merlin flies back to Charis and starts handing out some dev kits he's been working on prepping, which, I have to stress, is literally what Safehold natives know the servants of Shan-wei will do. This is a pretty close analogy for a guy with goat hooves, red skin, and a pitchfork showing up in front of a Christian in a flash of burning sulfur and saying "I have been sent by the Father of Lies to ensure that your soul is thrown into the Lake of Eternal Fire, but hang on it's really for the best."

Anyway, Merlin introduces Arabic numerals (instead of the Roman numerals the rest of Safehold uses) and the abacus to Cayleb, who gets to at least feel like he's paying attention to things by trying to call Merlin on his BS a little bit before the story moves on. It's... a lot more than nothing. The intent here is that Merlin has proven his motives, and since his motives are known pure, people will give him leeway while not being too stupid about not noticing when things are wacky with his half-explanations, misleading answers, mysterious temporary disappearances, etc. It's still something we've spent the last 250+ pages explaining why this shouldn't be enough, which is frustrating to me. This is how an agent of Shan-wei is expected to act, though other Good People shrug off Merlin's foibles. It means that the remaining explanation is just people doing a 'judge of character' thing and putting that above their theology. Is this pretty good, or definitely bad? I'm not actually sure on this one.

Moving on from Good Royalty, we get to the Good Capitalists. As you might recall, Charis has de-serfed its serfs, allowed people who are good enough at capitalism to become lords, and has let its sea traders make money for themselves and the nation by showing up in other ports and saying "hey, I'm a Charisian trader", which axiomatically causes money to occur.

Howsmyn is, if I recall, the most important of the Good Capitalists going forward, but there's a number of them here. Merlin gives them each an individual chunk of things and lets them take credit, so things like better gunpowder and spinning jennies and how to make copper-bottomed boats and similar tech is handed to them for them to make money off of by turning the concepts into actual innovative items. Because they're all Good, they instantly realize realize that the galleys of current Safehold naval warfare are obsolete: these improvements will revolutionize sea cannons and make them incredibly important instead of a novelty. Now, a trireme can't mount a broadside, because the rowing team is in the way. Galleys are the main current tech, though, so it'll take time to redesign and rebuild navies to make galleons that can make use of guns that can fire more often, more powerfully, safer, and be aimed better, thanks to all of Merlin's goody bags.

Join me next time for me to bitch about Charis' sea-going traditions again.
 
Honestly the more I think about it the more I think the fundamental problem (Besides the obvious of Weber being an already not great writer consumed by his own bizarre biases), is that it focuses on a single nation at all?

From a plausibility direction it feels less like people should be screaming "Agent of Shan Wei!" At literally every thing Merlin is doing if he spread it out a bunch more? Better sails in one nation, better powder in the next, the Abacus and Arabic Numerals in a third. It'd both prevent one single place from being singled out as a center of heresy, and encourage competition and innovation on a variety of fronts. It'd also be closer to the real Wars of Religion, instead of "Super tech England versus the world" that we get here.

From a narrative perspective it'd both more interesting to see Merlin, world traveling agent of progress rather than what we get here, and it'd feel less like Late Stage Honorverse, but with Galleons as the unstoppable supertech that makes the protagonists unbeatable instead of Multidrive Missiles.

Hell, if you were really feeling ambitious, you could excise Merlin's POV entirely and set it solely from the perspective of the Safeholdians having encounters with a mysterious Sejin spreading new ideas, giving Merlin the affect of a mysterious trickster entity-and leave a lot of mystery of what he actually is, until whenever you want to stage the big reveal of his true identity and the great lie at the foundation of Safehold's history.
 
Honestly the more I think about it the more I think the fundamental problem (Besides the obvious of Weber being an already not great writer consumed by his own bizarre biases), is that it focuses on a single nation at all?

From a plausibility direction it feels less like people should be screaming "Agent of Shan Wei!" At literally every thing Merlin is doing if he spread it out a bunch more? Better sails in one nation, better powder in the next, the Abacus and Arabic Numerals in a third. It'd both prevent one single place from being singled out as a center of heresy, and encourage competition and innovation on a variety of fronts. It'd also be closer to the real Wars of Religion, instead of "Super tech England versus the world" that we get here.

From a narrative perspective it'd both more interesting to see Merlin, world traveling agent of progress rather than what we get here, and it'd feel less like Late Stage Honorverse, but with Galleons as the unstoppable supertech that makes the protagonists unbeatable instead of Multidrive Missiles.

Hell, if you were really feeling ambitious, you could excise Merlin's POV entirely and set it solely from the perspective of the Safeholdians having encounters with a mysterious Sejin spreading new ideas, giving Merlin the affect of a mysterious trickster entity-and leave a lot of mystery of what he actually is, until whenever you want to stage the big reveal of his true identity and the great lie at the foundation of Safehold's history.
Do the galleons tow rowboats carrying cannons behind them to complete the Honor Harrington feel?

Also, yeah, spreading everything out to a number of nations would benefit both the storytelling and Merlin's basic ploy. This focus on a single nation feels like a millstone around the story's neck, tbh.
 
Do the galleons tow rowboats carrying cannons behind them to complete the Honor Harrington feel?

No, but it does have "Military Technology gets fully revolutionized like three times in the space of a few years while most of the world sits by and does nothing" vibe of Manticoran tech advancement.

It legitimately takes like four books for the antagonists (Outside of not!France of course) to realize they can't just throw increasingly large fleets of obsolete Galleys at the Charisians and expect to win, and by the time they do build a fleet of Galleons the Charisians have already massively outpaced them with like three other gamechanging technologies that ensure the curbstomp continues without interruption.
 
We finally see Duke Traitor's wife and kids, and get the sort of scene that you have to enjoy if you're going to enjoy reading Weber's work yourself: there's an emotional scene where King Haarahld meets with a young boy, telling him what he will and won't have to deal with given the fall-out of Duke Traitor's treachery, both "we are family" and "you are one of my dukes, now, which means you have to act like it." We don't know half of these characters; it's people we're only just now meeting. If it clicks with you, it can be emotionally resonant in a very good way, expressing a faith in human nature: 'this is how people normally are, even the young and innocent'. If it doesn't, it's unsupported melodrama. I have to be in the right mood for it to work for me, personally, but you can fall on either side or find something in-between-ish, like I do.
Oh the melodrama, how I have forgotten thee. I'm tempted to keep a running tally of how many scenes can be described thusly and which characters are invovled, and compare it to my much more recent memories of the later books. I think the later books had more of these scenes, or at least became more repetitive, but it's also probable I just became less tolerable of them as I changed as a person.

So, like, this is the foundational tenet of Safeholdian theology: Shan-wei sends people to appeal to your better nature and offers evil knowledge, which necessarily harms God's Church and leads to strife and horror. This is exactly what has been prophesied as the temptation to watch out for since time began and the world was first created in God's designs through his Archangel Langhorne, an Archangel whose miracles are unquestionably and directly visible in some areas and whom hundreds of disparate people-groups all across Safehold met in person, as their oldest written records can attest.

Keep this in mind. This is what people know is true and how they know it's true. We'll talk at length about how many people are outright eager to pitch the only framing that they've ever heard about, and willing to do so the moment an agent of Shan-wei begins to offer a temptation that they know an agent of Shan-wei will offer to tempt people, with only some of that being later this update.
Then Merlin flies back to Charis and starts handing out some dev kits he's been working on prepping, which, I have to stress, is literally what Safehold natives know the servants of Shan-wei will do. This is a pretty close analogy for a guy with goat hooves, red skin, and a pitchfork showing up in front of a Christian in a flash of burning sulfur and saying "I have been sent by the Father of Lies to ensure that your soul is thrown into the Lake of Eternal Fire, but hang on it's really for the best."
Whenever I describe this series -keeping with the Glowing Recommendation Only 70% Caveats By Volume gag- I always describe it as like half a dozen really compelling premises crammed into a single series written by an author I only trust to follow up on like one and a half of those ideas. I do really want a sci-fi series following precisely this premise, how does a technologically advanced party influence a culture that was built from the ground up to resist the influence of the technologically advanced, but I'm glad Weber barely even tried to write it. Despite how comical I found Webers's increasingly extreme justifications for why all of Merlin's key allies were already down for this exact form of heresy, they're probably preferable to the alternative of Weber earnestly trying to write some kind of temptation plotline

Honestly the more I think about it the more I think the fundamental problem (Besides the obvious of Weber being an already not great writer consumed by his own bizarre biases), is that it focuses on a single nation at all?

From a plausibility direction it feels less like people should be screaming "Agent of Shan Wei!" At literally every thing Merlin is doing if he spread it out a bunch more? Better sails in one nation, better powder in the next, the Abacus and Arabic Numerals in a third. It'd both prevent one single place from being singled out as a center of heresy, and encourage competition and innovation on a variety of fronts. It'd also be closer to the real Wars of Religion, instead of "Super tech England versus the world" that we get here.

From a narrative perspective it'd both more interesting to see Merlin, world traveling agent of progress rather than what we get here, and it'd feel less like Late Stage Honorverse, but with Galleons as the unstoppable supertech that makes the protagonists unbeatable instead of Multidrive Missiles.
I've always thought it could do with an expanded timeline too. Start to finish it's only like, fifteen, twenty years for Charis to go from early Renaissance to WW1 levels of military tech. While Napoleonic navies spanking fleets four times their size and three tech levels behind them is kinda the point of the series, it's silly how quickly tech proliferates on a planet where science is the devil's work. Either make it a global affair as you say or add another couple decades for Charis to tech up. Or both
 
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Hell, if you were really feeling ambitious, you could excise Merlin's POV entirely and set it solely from the perspective of the Safeholdians having encounters with a mysterious Sejin spreading new ideas, giving Merlin the affect of a mysterious trickster entity-and leave a lot of mystery of what he actually is, until whenever you want to stage the big reveal of his true identity and the great lie at the foundation of Safehold's history.
That way one could have used the shape-shifting more often so that we have multiple mysterious figures spreading technology in a way which makes it look like there's some proxy war going on until the revelation of the actual origins of Safehold and humanity.
 
Honestly, even through the filter of this readthrough, the story so far comes across as incredibly tedious and uncompelling.
I would actually say a big part of that is the filter of this read-through. Weber's overall plotting is some of his weakest points, while his scene-to-scene craft can be decent - in this book specifically he got a decent bit of mileage out of shifting POV around in ways that left the reader uncertain of what was even going to be present at a scene (the answer was generally Merlin, but still) which helped make things a little more compelling. Also, the summarization kind of inherently kills character moments, etc - I'm definitely not calling this book (or series) good, but if you treat it as a popcorn story, it's for instance way better than late Honorverse. (Admittedly, damning with faint praise there...)
 
From a plausibility direction it feels less like people should be screaming "Agent of Shan Wei!" At literally every thing Merlin is doing if he spread it out a bunch more? Better sails in one nation, better powder in the next, the Abacus and Arabic Numerals in a third. It'd both prevent one single place from being singled out as a center of heresy, and encourage competition and innovation on a variety of fronts. It'd also be closer to the real Wars of Religion, instead of "Super tech England versus the world" that we get here.
I don't know, seems like rather than having Charis and allies versus the Temple and allies, it would be a war of everyone against everyone in the cause of more land and more money. Hard to see Merlin going for it.
 
Spread it between the different maritime powers plus Siddarmark and make certain they have a common enemy and things could work out.

Also something which I think comes up later is how Langhorne made baseball a holy rite. Which is petty but also hilarious.
 
I don't know, seems like rather than having Charis and allies versus the Temple and allies, it would be a war of everyone against everyone in the cause of more land and more money. Hard to see Merlin going for it.

I mean that would probably fit what she needs to do better than the actual plot of Protestants Vs Evil Cackling Catholics. And hell, it would also fit Weber's love of Capitalism.

He wants to break the ban on innovation and technology, so giving everyone a delicious taste and having them come to the conclusion that the Temple is wrong to hold them down and agitate basically a world-wide war would spark the war-innovation he desires. It would cause great chaos and misery but he's already committed to a world war of a stripe anyways, and has no problem doing what it takes to win.

Alternately, do to every nation what is being done to Charis.

Of course, the point is that Charis is Uniquely Good and everyone else needs to See The Light Of Protestantism.
 
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Oh the melodrama, how I have forgotten thee. I'm tempted to keep a running tally of how many scenes can be described thusly and which characters are invovled, and compare it to my much more recent memories of the later books. I think the later books had more of these scenes, or at least became more repetitive, but it's also probable I just became less tolerable of them as I changed as a person.
I'm summarizing things enough you wouldn't get an accurate count from only my writing, but, yes, that's my memory, too. Just... there comes a point where things just happen.

Whenever I describe this series -keeping with the Glowing Recommendation Only 70% Caveats By Volume gag- I always describe it as like half a dozen really compelling premises crammed into a single series written by an author I only trust to follow up on like one and a half of those ideas. I do really want a sci-fi series following precisely this premise, how does a technologically advanced party influence a culture that was built from the ground up to resist the influence of the technologically advanced, but I'm glad Weber barely even tried to write it. Despite how comical I found Webers's increasingly extreme justifications for why all of Merlin's key allies were already down for this exact form of heresy, they're probably preferable to the alternative of Weber earnestly trying to write some kind temptation plotline
I think you're right, here. This pitch is a really good one to have another writer handle. I definitely lack the familiarity with and passion for obscure historical innovations to do it on my own, though.

Honestly, even through the filter of this readthrough, the story so far comes across as incredibly tedious and uncompelling.
As Sotek says: the story itself isn't very compelling, but there are fun things tucked into the moment-to-moment writing. It's just... too much, focused wrong, and written with biases in play that aren't good for it.

This 800-page book could have been an excellent 300 page book, and the current 7000-or-so page ten-book series could have been a rollicking good 1500 pages over five books.

I can tell you that "there's a good fight scene here" sometimes, but I can't really quote what makes it compelling, sometimes, just because that's basically copying out a chapter or so.
 
This is perfect as i stalled out several books in and want to find out what happened in the later books, in slightly more detail and narrative coherence than a wiki dive would offer, but good god I can't read them again.

I'm pretty sure the most direct inspirational media behind Safehold's suppressed tech level setup (and Weber's previous takes on it) isn't Dune but Lord of Light, which would have come out at prime David Weber Is An Enthusiastic Young Nerd time, was wildly successful in its day, and much more closely matches the setup. It even also features a slightly off-center treatment of trans transhumanism, though Zelazny is much less clumsy about it. There's a number of older pulp scifi stories playing around with the idea, though - the sort of Edgar Rice Burroughs era featured a lot of false religions and liberating power of tech/rationality beats - so it might go back further too.

Also, idk if you're building up to a twist or you just forgot, but (spoilers about Nahrman) the guy you keep holding out as an example of how the fat can't be virtuous is, by the end of book two, a good guy. Weber's mess about this kind of stuff tends to be much more trend then rule.

I am generally of the belief that Weber is best understood not as a consistent conservative but something much more confusing - a median voter.
 
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This is perfect as i stalled out several books in and want to find out what happened in the later books, in slightly more detail and narrative coherence than a wiki dive would offer, but good god I can't read them again.

I'm pretty sure the most direct inspirational media behind Safehold's suppressed tech level setup (and Weber's previous takes on it) isn't Dune but Lord of Light, which would have come out at prime David Weber Is An Enthusiastic Young Nerd time, was wildly successful in its day, and much more closely matches the setup. It even also features a slightly off-center treatment of trans transhumanism, though Zelazny is a much less clumsy about it. There's a number of older pulp scifi stories playing around with the idea, though - the sort of Edgar Rice Burroughs era featured a lot of false religions and liberating power of tech/rationality beats - so it might go back further too.

Also, idk if you're building up to a twist or you just forgot, but (spoilers about Nahrman) the guy you keep holding out as an example of how the fat can't be virtuous is, by the end of book two, a good guy. Weber's mess about this kind of stuff tends to be much more trend then rule.

I am generally of the belief that Weber is best understood not as a consistent conservative but something much more confusing - a median voter.

How that plays out will be extremely familiar to Honorverse readers, I'd think.

Also, I groaned when I realized his name is another reference. Norman Bates
 
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