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Tropes or Cliches you actually like

I'm not 100% sure if this is the right thread, but as far as I'm aware, we don't have a "Tropes or similar tools you haven't seen, but wish showed up in things" thread, so I'm posting it here.


Anyways, I want a situation with a hero and villain fighting each other, during which one or the other attempts to deliver an absolutely scathing Reason You Suck Speech aimed at completely ripping into their foe's goals, motivations, life's work, everything... only to have it completely fall flat because the other person just stopped listening to anything the other person was saying. Either by just zoning out and ignoring what the speech-giver was saying, or bonus points if they're a cyborg/robot or the like, literally turned their ears off during the speech because they figured that they had absolutely zero reason to give a damn about whatever lecture could be coming from someone they were actively trying to kill in that moment.

I just think it would be an amusing way of showing the sheer amount of disrespect that someone could have for their enemy, by having them be unwilling to hear even a single word that their foe might be saying.
 
...this reminds me of one really funny Portal theory.

Chell isn't just mute. She's deaf.

GLaDOS spent the entire game being extremely sardonic to her while Chell was completely unaware while just enjoying doing puzzles.
 
So, there's a type of antagonist/deuteragonist I wish we'd see more of that I've been referring to in my head as "the hero of a different story" (there is probably a better name for this).

The basic gist is that the character has an idea or behavior or overall attitude that would have made them the hero of a different story. But the story they're actually in has a different message or tone or what have you so instead their actions end up causing problems for the protagonists or ruining things.

And to be clear here, I don't mean a villain with a sympathetic motive, nor stuff like the Gaston theory (where a villainous character's actions are "justified" post-hoc by the fandom or whatever) or protagonist-centered morality. I'm talking characters with moral frameworks that would make them heroes in a different series.

The best example I can think of is General Ironwood from RWBY of all shows (at least in the early volumes before he apparently goes cartoon villain). Ironwood argues that the Huntsmen shouldn't be children and you need a strong military presence to fight back monsters like the Grimm. Which is a fair perspective to take against a horde of unthinking monsters that want to slaughter humans basically Just Cuz, and we never doubt he wants to help people. But RWBY isn't that kind of show; the Grimm (as Ozpin points out) attracted to negative emotions, and putting up an army causes anxiety in the people of Vale by making them ask 'if that's the army protecting us then what's coming for us'. By bringing in an army to keep Vale safe, he's actually managed to make the situation worse. And yet, if RWBY were a more cynical show, or Grimm didn't work that way, Ironwood's call would've (arguably) been the right one.
 
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RWBY also has one other weird thing, that being that, in-setting, having an organized, uniformed, uniformily trained military like that is essentially one of the in-universe red flags for their equivalent of fascism from back when some kingdoms tried to impose uniformity on everyone via force to try a (futile) solution to dampen human spirit to not attract Grimm. Which is why bloody everyone in RWBY has such unique designs and everyone besides Atlas depends on militias of independently trained hunters, it's a reaction to that sort of thing.

It's one of those things that I genuinely like about the setting.
 
i'm never going to get sick of character powers/abilities being based on or coming from personality. Call it cliche or lame, but "intelligent and calm ice user", "ditzy, carefree wind user", "shy person who turns invisible", etc etc. never get old to me.
 
HalfTangible said:
The basic gist is that the character has an idea or behavior or overall attitude that would have made them the hero of a different story. But the story they're actually in has a different message or tone or what have you so instead their actions end up causing problems for the protagonists or ruining things.
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This does remind me of a certain type of character I've seen in a few light novels/webnovels. (The example I remember is Private Tutor To The Duke's Daughter, but I've seen it in a few other places.)

They're old, conservative, hostile, and generally mired in suspicious politics. They will try as hard as they can to obstruct the protagonist and co. from helping deal with the latest problem or catastrophe.

And then it turns out their motive is simply "children should not be fighting on the front lines, and it is us old people who should give our lives". (The situation is a civil war, so technically the front lines came to them.) Which is a fairly understandable and heroic motivation in other settings, but here the "children" are shounen protagonists, ie teenagers with superpowers coincidentally suited for taking out the mastermind.

A variation in fantasy stories is a haughty noble going "Commoners and peasants have no place here", because what they meant was "Noblesse oblige means it is us nobles who should take the vanguard and protect the commoners".
 
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Axslashel said:
There are certainly stories where people like Gaston would be the hero. Not stories anyone here would like but stories none the less.
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The specific theory I'm referring to flat-out ignores his motives in order to make him the hero of the story.

And I mean... hunter of a village who likes the prettiest girl in town despite everyone else thinking she's a weirdo, she gets captured by a monstrous beast and is forced to love him, he picks up his gun and goes to kill the beast to save her and the town. There's a version of that story where Gaston is the hero.

It's one where he stops being a selfish egotistical prick, which is NOT Beauty and the Beast, but it exists. It's part of what makes the movie so good.

Adloquium said:
This does remind me of a certain type of character I've seen in a few light novels/webnovels. (The example I remember is Private Tutor To The Duke's Daughter, but I've seen it in a few other places.)

They're old, conservative, hostile, and generally mired in suspicious politics. They will try as hard as they can to obstruct the protagonist and co. from helping deal with the latest problem or catastrophe.

And then it turns out their motive is simply "children should not be fighting on the front lines, and it is us old people who should give our lives". (The situation is a civil war, so technically the front lines came to them.) Which is a fairly understandable and heroic motivation in other settings, but here the "children" are shounen protagonists, ie teenagers with superpowers coincidentally suited for taking out the mastermind.

A variation in fantasy stories is a haughty noble going "Commoners and peasants have no place here", because what they meant was "Noblesse oblige means it is us nobles who should take the vanguard and protect the commoners".
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nodnod

"I was given much, and so much I must give."
 
Axslashel said:
There are certainly stories where people like Gaston would be the hero. Not stories anyone here would like but stories none the less.
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<looks at various takes on The Dragon Prince, Hazbin Hotel, etc. that shoots for "depth" in manners that no-so-coincidentally justifies the more human-identified[/i] Genocidal Lunatic Faction or absolves them of blame>

Yeah, I get that.

HalfTangible said:
The specific theory I'm referring to flat-out ignores his motives in order to make him the hero of the story.

And I mean... hunter of a village who likes the prettiest girl in town despite everyone else thinking she's a weirdo, she gets captured by a monstrous beast and is forced to love him, he picks up his gun and goes to kill the beast to save her and the town. There's a version of that story where Gaston is the hero.
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That... could work. Might need to warp the motives of various other principals (i.e. the Beast remaining a selfish prick) but it works.
 
I know it's a cliché at this point, but I always get hyped whenever the theme song of a show plays during an important moment, especially if it's during the final battle. It does a great job of building hype and getting me invested in the action, even if the action itself is otherwise kind of plain.
 
HalfTangible said:
So, there's a type of antagonist/deuteragonist I wish we'd see more of that I've been referring to in my head as "the hero of a different story" (there is probably a better name for this).

The basic gist is that the character has an idea or behavior or overall attitude that would have made them the hero of a different story. But the story they're actually in has a different message or tone or what have you so instead their actions end up causing problems for the protagonists or ruining things.

And to be clear here, I don't mean a villain with a sympathetic motive, nor stuff like the Gaston theory (where a villainous character's actions are "justified" post-hoc by the fandom or whatever) or protagonist-centered morality. I'm talking characters with moral frameworks that would make them heroes in a different series.

The best example I can think of is General Ironwood from RWBY of all shows (at least in the early volumes before he apparently goes cartoon villain). Ironwood argues that the Huntsmen shouldn't be children and you need a strong military presence to fight back monsters like the Grimm. Which is a fair perspective to take against a horde of unthinking monsters that want to slaughter humans basically Just Cuz, and we never doubt he wants to help people. But RWBY isn't that kind of show; the Grimm (as Ozpin points out) attracted to negative emotions, and putting up an army causes anxiety in the people of Vale by making them ask 'if that's the army protecting us then what's coming for us'. By bringing in an army to keep Vale safe, he's actually managed to make the situation worse. And yet, if RWBY were a more cynical show, or Grimm didn't work that way, Ironwood's call would've (arguably) been the right one.
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just remembered something and I wanted to come back to this: In Ben 10: Alien Force there's an episode where Ben's parents discover the superheroics and investigations he's doing and ground him temporarily to try and keep him safe that's sort of in this vein.
 
HalfTangible said:
The basic gist is that the character has an idea or behavior or overall attitude that would have made them the hero of a different story. But the story they're actually in has a different message or tone or what have you so instead their actions end up causing problems for the protagonists or ruining things.
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Some of the Compact military, especially the Tribunes, seem like they're deliberately designed this way in The Last Angel.

I mean just look at this:

Proximal Flame said:
"'For though we who bear the sword may sometimes falter…'"

"'…we are not defeated if there are those who lift it again'," Nasham finished the line from Dravik's Odyssey. The same words were craved into the archway above the Gardens of Memory back on Oada. For three thousand years the Tribunes had been the Compact's sword. Today would be no different.
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The Last Angel: Ascension

Hello all! This is a new writing project I'm pleased to start. It is the sequel to my previous...
forums.spacebattles.com

In most milscifi, these would be good guy lines.
 
It's more of a particular usage of tropes than an opinion on a trope in general, but I absolutely adore how Bionicle consistently avoids the "Strong big dumb" sort of character archetype.

Onua, slow and methodical wiseman. Pohatu, probably the most emotionally intelligent of the Toa Mata and is a savant in his field of expertise. Whenua, straight up a fucking academic. Nuparu, inventor and mad scientist. Reidak, admittedly all the Piraka are a bit dim outwardly but he was consistently shown as probably the most subtly cunning of them.

I can only really think of Carapar and Nocturn as exceptions but one was explicitly a much more intelligent individual before he got brainwashed into being all but an animal while the other one is such a hilarious exaggeration of the trope (accidentally sunk his home continent because of just how monstrously strong and stupid he is) it gets a pass.
 
DestinyPlayer said:
It's more of a particular usage of tropes than an opinion on a trope in general, but I absolutely adore how Bionicle consistently avoids the "Strong big dumb" sort of character archetype.

Onua, slow and methodical wiseman. Pohatu, probably the most emotionally intelligent of the Toa Mata and is a savant in his field of expertise. Whenua, straight up a fucking academic. Nuparu, inventor and mad scientist. Reidak, admittedly all the Piraka are a bit dim outwardly but he was consistently shown as probably the most subtly cunning of them.

I can only really think of Carapar and Nocturn as exceptions but one was explicitly a much more intelligent individual before he got brainwashed into being all but an animal while the other one is such a hilarious exaggeration of the trope (accidentally sunk his home continent because of just how monstrously strong and stupid he is) it gets a pass.
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Axonn is basically meant to be the 'dumb muscle' of the Axonn and Brutaka duo but he's not even dumb.
 
ApocalypticFish said:
Axonn is basically meant to be the 'dumb muscle' of the Axonn and Brutaka duo but he's not even dumb.
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I wouldn't even call it like that. Both Axonn and Brutaka are scholars who are also ridiculously strong, the difference is that Axonn is stoic while Brutaka is erratic and that informs the rest of their personalities.

Like, Axonn also had a stint as trying to take over the world. They're more alike than even they think.
 
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I'm not sure if this can be considered a trope, but I absolutely adore when some character who is in the know about some sort of extraordinary affair goes to testify before some official government body for whom the said affair is an utterly otherworldly outside context problem, such as when Ellen in the show Pantheon went up when the existence of digitally-uploaded persons were made public or when the main character of A Colder War did so when knowledge of the Lovecraftian leaked.
 
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Exhale said:
I'm not sure if this can be considered a trope, but I absolutely adore when some character who is in the know about some sort of extraordinary affair goes to testify before some official government body for whom the said affair is an utterly otherworldly outside context problem, such as when Ellen in the show Pantheon went up when the existence of digitally-uploaded persons were made public or when the main character of A Colder War did so when knowledge of the Lovecraftian leaked.
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I immediately thought of the variant where the person testifying about the extraordinary affair is themselves clearly and obviously extraordinary, but is also blandly testifying like they're just an average person.

The example which came to mind was in the TV series Stargate SG-1, where members of Stargate Command was called up to justify their budget to senators and such. The episode was an excuse for a clip show (to save show budget for the season finales), but the framing story was just the senators not believing all this talk about aliens and warp portals and all that.

Until one of the Stargate Command personnel contacts one of the aliens ("Supreme Commander Thor"), who beams down a holo-projection and joins in the budget meeting, mostly going "yeah, what those people said sounds accurate enough, they really did do all those things". The alien isn't there to go "I AM NOT OF YOUR WORLD", but just as a regular additional witness who happens to look like the classic UFO Grey alien.
 
searcher8 said:
Anyways, I want a situation with a hero and villain fighting each other, during which one or the other attempts to deliver an absolutely scathing Reason You Suck Speech aimed at completely ripping into their foe's goals, motivations, life's work, everything... only to have it completely fall flat because the other person just stopped listening to anything the other person was saying.
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Reminds me of that bit in the Sonic 06 fandub where Eggman is explaining how Elise has to become his game tester, the "gaming girl queen", or else, and he gives a whole monologue about it, and then, at the end, Elise is like, "To be honest, I've been visualizing a beach this entire time." 🤣

As for a trope I find really fun, forgive me if this has already been posted here, but I like that scenario where there's, like, this master thief/pickpocket guy walking down a crowded street, and a young wannabe pickpocket tries taking his wallet or something, and the master thief stops him immediately and effortlessly, but then, instead of turning him in or even getting mad, he's like, "Your technique is all wrong. If you really want to pick pockets, you should do X and X, and also you need to act less suspicious, draw less attention to yourself..." and so on and so forth. And then maybe, after letting the kid go, he points out an unsuspecting man across the street and tells the kid, "Okay, now try pickpocketing him instead, and remember what I told you!"

And maybe he eventually becomes a sort of mentor to the kid, idk
 
I quite like what I've taken to calling a "nurturing fantasy", which I suppose just executes on the idea of "I can fix them". What I'm specifically drawing on here are Torodora and Komi Can't Communicate, which is admittedly a rather small sample- maybe there's other stuff I've seen which gets in the neighborhood of it but those two really strike the specific chords for me. In particular imo these shows take some care to maintain the subject's autonomy, as you do otherwise risk getting into especially infantalizing territory (a concern Toradora engages with quite directly, in fact).
 
I adore the trope of "Same person but diametrically opposed". As in, two people who have virtually the same core personality traits, but due to something else, whether the way those traits get revealed or due to different life expereriences or whatever, they are also so ridiculously dissimilar to each other outwardly they can't help but clash.

Dante and Vergil. Tahu and Kopaka. Nuju and Whenua. Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Moriarty.
 
A noble scion runs away from their family to pursue their passions, or to get away from overly controlling parents. They think that their child will soon be back, thinking they'll find normal life too daunting for them.

Turns out they're completely wrong and the runaway takes to their new life like a fish takes to water.

This cliche can take many forms in many settings, but it always feels satisfying to me.
 
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