Tinker Quest (Current Character: Ajax Washington)

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I mean… the QM themselves said it would take a long time for it to bare fruit and that it would kinda suck until then.

Right. While I evidently didn't succeed I was trying to sell people on a longer-term project that while it would do something, needed more time and care to really be properly effective. A character piece, a tinkertech The Old Man And The Sea story where the struggle to succeed and overcome would be all the more satisfying because of the payoff. Hence the constant references to blue skies.

Ah well. Differences in aesthetics maybe, it happens.

Please don't put words in my mouth, we don't need a social infiltrator or to hold conversations, we need something that can pass a human while it beats people up in alleyways in the middle of the night, this thing doesn't need to be social, that would be great but it wouldn't be necessary.

Fundamentally, and this is pretty much the root of my issue with the plan, I have serious doubts about the Person minion's ability to beat people up in alleyways. The original entry says nothing about beyond-human physical attributes, a later QM comment referred to it only as "our physical ideal" or something like that, and nowhere is it bulletproof or bullet-resistant. It's some dude, with a monkey's intelligence but not a monkey's physical abilities.

Actually, fair point, I'll agree that any in depth deception, like a conversation, would be out of our reach on an immediate timescale, but as mentioned we don't need that. We need to not be found when we start sending it to beat people up.

Discretion is the better part of valor, I definitely agree with that.

Honestly? Risk I'm willing to take. It's not like I think a Komodo dragon is going to be able to reliably pull off nonlethal takedowns, even with us micro managing it.

But a Komodo would win a fight, and it could do a dandy job of intimidation as well.

Our financial prospects are very dim at the moment, we have all of three figures in the bank and a minimum-wage job. Tinkering's going to be plenty expensive as it is, I don't think we're going to have the money to equip a Person-type minion, not without sending it out to try and rob something without the equipment the robbery will pay for. Without a weapon or protective gear it's a very fit very dim person in our spare clothes fighting like, whatever this monkey-brained thing would fight like. That's a recipe for it getting curbstomped by half a dozen strung-out Merchants, let alone a serious combatant.


In canon, as long as I'm not remembering things incorrectly, her Master rating was artificially raised while she was a villain. Instead of accurately representing her actual abilities, it was shown as being higher than it deserved to be specifically so responses to her could be adjusted accordingly.

To be fair she also made a habit of fighting with swarms of wasps/hornets, venomous spiders, and far too many roaches. Not to mention the fact that she made a costume out of black spidersilk and carapace and called herself "skitter" without realizing the impression that would make.

 
While we have a bunch of smaller issues that all led to the Trigger, we don't know what finally actually caused the snap. Maybe he found a lizard corpse in his bed, maybe he found a bee-hive and had a small heart attack…
It doesn't work like that. Tinkers are triggered as a result of events that have no solution and accumulate over a long period of time, pressurising a person from day to day until it all reaches the moment of culmination.
Anything could still fit very easily. Person isn't the most fitting, just the most fitting if nothing else is added to the Trigger. The rest are still 100% viable and easily fit the Trigger. It also doesn't necessarily make it more interesting. Just harder and with different/more challenges.
So you mean to say that the inner drama of contemplating one's ideal image and realising the impossibility of achieving it is comparable in quality to "I found a dead lizard in my bed"?
Yes, of course, if you want, you can bring any justification under the necessary force, the only question is how organically and qualitatively it will look.
 
In canon, as long as I'm not remembering things incorrectly, her Master rating was artificially raised while she was a villain. Instead of accurately representing her actual abilities, it was shown as being higher than it deserved to be specifically so responses to her could be adjusted accordingly.

This might've been because she was so resourceful with her powers and so dangerous to fight, but I could've sworn Taylor specifically noted how high her rating was as being more than she'd expected it to be.

If it's irrelevant or otherwise inaccurate I can remove it from my message.
My understanding was that that was a combination of…

A: Taylor being an unreliable narrator and underselling herself. Same as how she makes herself sound super reasonable when you're in her head.

B: "She's the warlord of a city, fuck her up."


1. Looks human, can act human, unless dissected they're going to assume human brains as well. And even if you CAN figure out it isn't human, that's not going to settle very many nerves- and it'll be RIGHT back to everyone's front of mind when the creature starts acting and talking like a human, and showing actual thought.

I'm pointing out that the assumption will be 'he's made a human'. Shortly after, as the intellect and actions of the creature noticeably shift impossibly quickly- sudden jumps in cognitive ability- people are going to quickly make the assumption 'he's messing with its brain. He can do human level brains'. Because we saw how reactions to Taylor were wildly skewed against her in favor of amplifying her assumed threat, and she wasn't even a bio-tinker, just a Master with a scary minion set.

Thanks to Nilbog and Bonesaw, we're GOING to be disliked from the get go. If we go human, that's GOING to be major and almost impossible to recover from. Especially once they realize we're actively messing with its brains- and they WILL pick up on that.

2. As I said. It's all about assumptions and fear-mongering. Which will be against us 100% of the time, and just have easier access to more terrifying ammunition if we use Person.
1: Can you sort out with Ro weather your side is arguing for it not being able to pull off pretending to be human or for it doing that too well?

2: We can only make one of the things, which I think should knock us a down the list a bit, keep in mind Purity isn't too far off from nuking a few city blocks.
 
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1: Can you sort out with Ro weather your side is arguing for it not being able to pull off pretending to be human or for it doing that too well?

He's arguing long-term I'm arguing short-term.

I'm saying it's going to be too stupid/weak to reliably win our fights in the first, month or so depending on how things go.

He's saying that it's going to be too clever/powerful to win our "I'm totally not a surgical Master!" arguments once it's gotten up to full human-level cleverness like half a year from now.
 
2: We can only make one of the things, which I think should knock us a down the list a bit, keep in mind Purity isn't too far off from nuking a few city blocks.
As long as we don't make something like the Woad Giant I'm fairly certain we'd rate on the lower end of things in general, what with the Rage Dragon, Metal Nazi, and soon to be Swarm Disaster in the making.
 
He's arguing long-term I'm arguing short-term.

I'm saying it's going to be too stupid/weak to reliably win our fights in the first, month or so depending on how things go.

He's saying that it's going to be too clever/powerful to win our "I'm totally not a surgical Master!" arguments once it's gotten up to full human-level cleverness like half a year from now.
Ah, ok.

1: Most Tinkers suck in their first month, it's why they're so vulnerable to press ganging. (This won't change if we have a Komodo Dragon, the fighty capes will also kick its ass and they'll send fighty capes along for a press ganging)

2: As stated by Mythfan, this city will have gone through several apocalypses at that point, they'll have bigger worries, also I'm pretty sure the interdimensional portal will have opened at that point. Worst comes to absolute worst we can go be a mad scientist in another dimension.
 
It doesn't work like that. Tinkers are triggered as a result of events that have no solution and accumulate over a long period of time, pressurising a person from day to day until it all reaches the moment of culmination.

So you mean to say that the inner drama of contemplating one's ideal image and realising the impossibility of achieving it is comparable in quality to "I found a dead lizard in my bed"?
Yes, of course, if you want, you can bring any justification under the necessary force, the only question is how organically and qualitatively it will look.

1. I'm aware of that. However, there is the final snapping point when the Trigger actually takes place, which will be influenced by the immediate surroundings and situation. The Trigger is that final moment of everything that was built up tipping over and imploding in a gloriously horrible moment of realization and despair. That moment is the Trigger. That moment is what sticks with you afterwards. That moment could be caused by just about anything, and only be the figurative straw that broke the camels back.

2. No? I didn't bring up the narrative pay-off or quality. I don't have the skills that Witherbrine does. I want them, I'm practicing and writing on it, but I'm not going to claim I can provide that level of quality. I'm claiming Witherbrine can. Whatever we pick will end up just as narratively satiating and fitting. He has the skills to make it work, and I trust that. I was only providing examples with my limited ability to do so.

My understanding was that that was a combination of…

A: Taylor being an unreliable narrator and underselling herself. Same as how she makes herself sound super reasonable when your in her head.

B: "She's the warlord of a city, fuck her up."



1: Can you sort out with Ro weather your side is arguing for it not being able to pull off pretending to be human or for it doing that too well?

2: We can only make one of the things, which I think should knock us a down the list a bit, keep in mind Purity isn't too far off from nuking a few city blocks.

… yeah. Yeah that's fair. Not relevant then. I wasn't sure when she found out, so if it was after she became a warlord then… valid. More to the point, can you name a single non-Panacea bio-tinker who was a hero? Because I can't, and I'm not sure if that's because there aren't any- which has IMPLICATIONS about typical prospects for bio-tinkers- or because I just never noticed them in the text. Any insights?

1. I'm… not on a side? I love the Bees, the Dragon, the Ants… the only one I don't like is the Person. I'm arguing against using it, but I don't really care which other choice wins. I'm not exactly relying on his arguments. You claimed that he'd be able to pass for a cape, so I assumed things coming from that angle when making my argument. If Ro is doing otherwise, that's sort of all him? I wasn't even really sure there were sides to take instead of us discussing preferences and our reasoning and thoughts. Sorry for the inconsistency? I think?

2. We know that. No one else knows that. We made minions called 'Igors' that act as lab assistants. Those also need brains. Clearly we can do more than just one brain.

If you assume fear around bio-tinkering that grew from Nilbog and Bonesaw, and the distrust and frequently utter terror that Masters inspire even when non-human focused, that combo is a frightening and easily assumed match for our power set.

Heck, wasn't there something about Rachel/Hellhound getting assumed to be a Master and getting harsher charges because of/in addition to the mislabeling? Or is that Fanon messing with me?
 
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… yeah. Yeah that's fair. Not relevant then. I wasn't sure when she found out, so if it was after she became a warlord then… valid. More to the point, can you name a single non-Panacea bio-tinker who was a hero? Because I can't
How many people outside the one city that got any detail can you name at all? We don't have a whole lot of evidence one way or the other.
Heck, wasn't there something about Rachel/Hellhound getting assumed to be a Master and getting harsher charges because of/in addition to the mislabeling? Or is that Fanon messing with me?
I think it's Fanon? They figure out she's not a mind controlly master right after the bank heist in canon.
2. We know that. No one else knows that. We made minions called 'Igors' that act as lab assistants. Those also need brains. Clearly we can do more than just one brain.
1: The Igors will be plainly inferior to any outside observer, they're Igors.

2: won't every possible choice have an Igor-alike? This seems like it's not a Person exclusive issue.
1. I'm… not on a side? I love the Bees the Dragon the Ants… the only one I don't like is the Person. I'm arguing against using it, but I don't really care which other choice wins. I'm not exactly relying on his arguments. You claimed that he'd be Annie to pass for a cape, so I assumed things coming from that angle when making my argument. If Ro is doing otherwise, that's sure of all him? I wasn't even really sure there were sides to take instead of us discussing preferences and our training and thoughts. Sorry for the inconsistency? I think?
Ah, alright, my bad on that front.
 
I'm aware of that. However, there is the final snapping point when the Trigger actually takes place, which will be influenced by the immediate surroundings and situation. The Trigger is that final moment of everything that was built up tipping over and imploding in a gloriously horrible moment of realization and despair. That moment is the Trigger. That moment is what sticks with you afterwards. That moment could be caused by just about anything, and only be the figurative straw that broke the camels back.
Again, you can make any justification you want for the right strength it won't add to the drama.
No? I didn't bring up the narrative pay-off or quality. I don't have the skills that Witherbrine does. I want them, I'm practicing and writing on it, but I'm not going to claim I can provide that level of quality. I'm claiming Witherbrine can. Whatever we pick will end up just as narratively satiating and fitting. He has the skills to make it work, and I trust that. I was only providing examples with my limited ability to do so.
You can't make a good product out of bad materials. All the more that the dramaturgy in this quest is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself, but for me it is one very important part.
 
How many people outside the one city that got any detail can you name at all? We don't have a whole lot of evidence one way or the other.

I think it's Fanon? They figure out she's not a mind controlly master right after the bank heist in canon.

1: The Igors will be plainly inferior to any outside observer, they're Igors.

2: won't every possible choice have an Igor-alike? This seems like it's not a Person exclusive issue.

Ah, alright, my bad on that front.
1. I really can't name many? I was mainly asking in case I missed something, and to make a bit of a point. The only big names for Bio-tinkers are Blasto, Nilbog, and Bonesaw. Blasto is like… next city over, so he's basically local. Ignoring him though… that's two major names that are horrifying. And with no major names to counter that, that were ever hear about… it has bad signs for the public perception of ANY bio-tinkers. Even ignoring Piggot's obvious disdain and prejudice.

Regardless, that's why I was asking you. Because I didn't know and wanted your insight. Unless there's even one example of a heroic bio-tinker, other than Pan-pan since she's more a striker and is sort of a weird gray area of never acting like a bio-tinker- I think- I'm not really gonna count her. She isn't influencing the public perception of bio-tinkers, after all…

2. Fair. Fairly certain Masters still have an awful name in the public consciousness thanks to Simmy and Valefore and Mama-Mathers and all… unless I'm getting that mixed up in Fanon as well. I don't think I am, but I've clearly been wrong before.

3. Yes… and? We've proven we can do more than one brain. Even if not as well, that's not going to soothe fears. Being reduced to an igor isn't any more comforting than being turned into a ticking time bomb of a freshly deranged human psycho.

4. Yes, but none of them will be as obviously derived from a human. Lizards look like malformed Kobolds, but what about the Bee option? Or Octopus? The lack of being/looking distinctly human is the key point. It lets us build a less awful first impression than we'll get with Person. It lets us scoot under the radar in the public consciousness compared to the automatic assumptions you'd get from Person,

That's my main point. Person has far wise and far more instant assumptions built around it than the rest thanks to the settings history with bio-tinkers and Masters.

Can we make it work? Yes. Can it be awesome? Yes. Can we do amazing things with it, equal to the Dragon? 100%.

It's the social and public reaction and consequences that most worrying and disinterest me.
 
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I hope evil because I swear everyone on SV is just allergic to the villain path.

I would LOVE to be a villain with this, since the chances of being a hero No matter what we pick are already shot. Bio-tinkers don't seem to have any big-name heroes the way they have big-name villains, and that has an impact on their ability to choose a path in those fields.

The Bee or Ant could do an homage to that one Taylor fic with the Bees and Puns. Not to mention forming a team with Taylor given the insects would be under her command.

Same if we made a Spider Queen.

Dragon and Kobolds could be turned into comedy so easily and it would be beautiful. X3

As averse to villainy as people seem to be, silly villainy is even rarer as far as my own experiences have gone. I'd LOVE to be the Heinz Doofenshmirtz equivalent within Brockten Bay. Even if we'd have a WILDLY different schtick from him.
 
I would LOVE to be a villain with this, since the chances of being a hero No matter what we pick are already shot. Bio-tinkers don't seem to have any big-name heroes the way they have big-name villains, and that has an impact on their ability to choose a path in those fields.

The Bee or Ant could do an homage to that one Taylor fic with the Bees and Puns. Not to mention forming a team with Taylor given the insects would be under her command.

Same if we made a Spider Queen.

Dragon and Kobolds could be turned into comedy so easily and it would be beautiful. X3

As averse to villainy as people seem to be, silly villainy is even rarer as far as my own experiences have gone. I'd LOVE to be the Heinz Doofenshmirtz equivalent within Brockten Bay. Even if we'd have a WILDLY different schtick from him.
I ain't talk doof level evil I am talking about ''Im making a abonanation to cause misery to mankind''level evil.
 
I've simply read a quest about being an the escaped Magnum Opus modified human and see being a mad scientists unceasing passion project as a pretty rough process before you bring higher thinking and the potential heavy introspective subjects that could torment a thinking individual. So I'll pass.
 
[X] What is your Focus? (This is your main creature; you can create other minor ones, but this is what the vast majority of your efforts will revolve around.)
-[X] A person:
It resembles a person, and that has all the upsides and downsides you think it would. It can handle tools, is somewhat smart, and could even fake being a cape, but a handful of people will be really scared of what it represents.
 
I see monkey, I become monke

[X] What is your Focus? (This is your main creature; you can create other minor ones, but this is what the vast majority of your efforts will revolve around.)
-[X] Something else: An ape. Hands like a human, but can't easily pass for one, greater strength and less intelligence than a human, probably less likely to cause bad reactions.
 
What was the name of the quest because that sounds funny
It's a bit more grim dark than that unfortunately. Darker tones and takes place in frost punk 2 setting. It has some light hearted and sweet moments, but the mc is very much the victim of callous intellectuals willing to torture her to make her whatever that weeks definition of perfect is.

It's called White Haired Waif, and it's on fiction live. Mature themes naturally, but the quest is more dystopian drama than anything smutty.
 
I see monkey, I become monke

[X] What is your Focus? (This is your main creature; you can create other minor ones, but this is what the vast majority of your efforts will revolve around.)
-[X] Something else: An ape. Hands like a human, but can't easily pass for one, greater strength and less intelligence than a human, probably less likely to cause bad reactions.
Could I persuade you to throw an approval vote at Person? Ape has 5 votes including you, whereas the two in the lead, (person and lizard) both have 13.
 
We're not obligated to call it a dragon. I'm actually thinking dinosaurs right now. Dinosaurs are cool.

Riding down the street on a Utahraptor is entirely within the realm of possibilities.

We can use a sufficiently sized lizard/dragon/dinosaur as a mount and be the envy of the city, can't get that from a Person-shaped minion.

Not without some really weird PHO allegations...
 
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