The Enemy Within (WHF Witch Hunter Quest)

I also like the idea of the tension of having to check up on our brother every time we have downtime. The fact that we actually let him get away with that is something that might allow us to reconnect, especially with the sister. And the fact that we might feel compelled to check up on him makes it a really interesting, Because our visits would both be a reminder of how we care enough for him to have compromised our principles... but there's also the threat hanging over the visit as well.

Edit: We absolutely should get our sister in on the secret though. It is also her life at risk by hanging out close with him, and also, IF he at some point gets corrupted or starts dealing with magic, she's there to give warning.
 
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Markus has already shut down his family life a long time ago, I mean they didn't have any kind of contact for 10 whole years. Not that long ago, he had his battle with daemons and saw with his own two eyes, that the laws and restrictions placed on spellcasters were there for a reason and any lax behaviour allows Chaos to fester right under the nose of good Empire citizens. No, taking such a chance and allowing innocents to die because of our lack of conviction is shameful. Markus saw what happens, when action in not taken, due to corruption or any other reason.

We are talking not just mundane corruption, but outright treason and heresy against the Empire and Sigmar, should Markus turn his back on him (and even then I'm not so sure if Rikard won't put a well remembered bullet in our back), some of the heaviest crimes Markus could commit, even worse, than murder. No shades of gray with this one too, like with the Edict, everything is crystal clear. As it shows, this may cause a downward spiral, that will turn him from the rightous Witch Hunter into the very thing he fights against.

There is a reason why in many cultures when somebody committed a horrible enough crime, his entire family and many of his extended family members were put to the sword. Blood is thicker than water and people tend to cover for their loved ones, knowing fully well, that they commit the same act of treason that way. Since Markus is one of those, that do the right thing, even if it's very painful for him personally (father), I see no reason not to continue doing so, especially since he has even more reason to do so, being a Witch Hunter.
 
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The path to redemption is not allowing a man who explicitly chooses to not follow the laws of the Empire to continue to not follow said laws out of his continued selfishness. The vote block makes clear he will not follow the laws, and that if we turn a blind eye we have no control over what he does. There's no indication we will follow up, or that we'd be in a position to do so. As a reminder:

1. He chose to continue hiding that he could see magic
2. He clearly learned from the witch
3. He allowed his father to be killed in his place
4. He chose to leave an extremely dangerous ghost undealt with (I understand avoiding Sigmarites, but not Morrie's)
5. He has continuously put all blame on everyone but himself
6. His stated reason for not joining the colleges is that he's too good for it
7. We have zero evidence he hasn't used his magic except his word, and he's already proven himself untrustworthy
8. The previous chapters have made it seem like the witch incident and our father's burning were not the only times our family has gone wrong historically, and it seems that may be a learned pattern

Basically he's a clearly inherently selfish person who is not interested in the only safe, legal path towards redemption, and we have no way to enforce any sort of alternative. Hell, it seems likely to me we have no way to even ensure he's properly monitored - we don't have magic sight, and it seems our system doesn't, so how would we ever actually enforce anything?

I don't like the impact killing him will have on Markus and Maria, but again I think leaving Rikard be is almost certainly leaving a high potential cultist or necromancer around.
 
By the way, @Maugan Ra.

Just out of sheer curiosity: is it possible for Markus to subdue Rikard without killing him? He does seem to be stronger and better trained after all, so knocking his younger brother out, then tying and gagging him should be doable. All this for the sake of forcefully transporting him to the Colleges.
 
I'm not saying you're wrong. Yes. It is shameful. Markus will likely feel the burn of shame (and if it gets exposed, a more literal burn, HEYO!) , and it is absolutely us accepting and abiding a breach of the law, and exposing others to the risks. if Rikard does go corrupt and kills people, the blood is on our hands too. And if he does not, yeah, we did in fact break our sacred vows on this one. No sugarcoating that.

But after consideration, I'd rather read the story of Markus being compromise, guilty and ashamed, while dealing with some loved ones, than Markus having a clean rap sheet, but an entire branch of storytelling cut off. I'm making my vote very much as 'the audience eating popcorn, deciding what they'd like to see next in the movie'
 
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So the main question for me here is, is he deliberately lying about conditions in the colleges or does he legitimately not know? Because with the knowledge that most apprentices simply fail to graduate and become Apprentices-In-Perpetuity (Yes I know, fandom wiki, sorry. Can't be bothered to dig up realms of sorcery right now) it seems to me like he's trying to play into the biases he thinks a Templar might have regarding the colleges in order to manipulate Markus into letting him go.

Rikard, as with Pietr before him, is definitely operating on less than total knowledge. Then again, so is Markus - he has no real idea what the Colleges are like for those who enrol with them, beyond generalities and what he has been able to reason out. They don't offer tours (especially not to Witch Hunters) or publish census data, after all.

That said, it is worth remembering that magic is dangerous, and a noteworthy portion of those who study it wind up badly injured or dead as a result. Balthasar Gelt, perhaps one of the most successful and prominent wizards the Colleges have ever produced, ended up scarred and maimed enough that he has to wear a full-face mask to cover the injuries. How that attrition rate compares to other professions is something that is difficult to tell, since there's no official body that gathers and compares statistics to refer to, but it is pretty unquestionable that it's got worse odds than "second son of an established noble family who likes to paint".

@Maugan Ra, the option to kill Rikard says he hates Markus too much to listen to any of his arguments. Is bringing in Maria any kind of option?

Markus is unwilling to bring Maria into this right now, largely because he isn't sure which side she would actually take. She came to find Markus in the first place, true, but she's also been living with Rikard for years - he has no idea how much she might or might not know about Rikard's abilities.

Not that I actually want such an option, but I am curious if it would be possible to pretend to turn a blind eye so we can ask someone else to do the deed? Or would that still qualify as dereliction of duty and see Markus burn regardless?

Theoretically yes, this would be fine and indeed many other Templars would recommend it if they knew the full circumstances. Markus would not be blamed for turning to others in this circumstance, and would not be guilty of dereliction.

The issue is that Markus as a person is entirely incapable of doing that. If he's going to condemn his brother to death, his own principles demand that he take responsibility and do it himself.

We haven't really interacted with the staff before running away to pray. Also, have we seen Maria stand in direct sunlight? She's also suspiciously social and interested in our career and who's our superior.

Maria is not a vampire.

I'm generally staying away from commenting on questions of, like, responsibility or possible consequences because that's what the vote is all about, but this is absurd. She's taking an interest in Markus' career and asking about his coworkers because Markus is her brother and she cares about him.

Yes, Lahmians exist, but that doesn't mean "a woman talked to me and took interest in what I was saying" is evidence that she is a bloodsucking creature of the night.

We've seen how half a day's worth of prayer, by I think a person sanctioned by the church, can apparently produce a holy bullet, so this makes me wonder, why aren't there more holy bullets used by non-holy peoples? I don't expect the local militia to have a stock of magic bullets, let alone guns. Still, if all you need is some priest to pray half a day near a bullet just to make it effective against ghosts when he's already praying as his full-time occupation then I'd at least expect the city guard or state troops to have a good stockpile of these things by now for a rainy day. Unless of course, I'm obviously missing something, then please let me know, because the logistics of this just don't make any other sense with the current understanding I have right now.

A priest's job isn't actually praying all day. They're leaders, advisors and organisers - the average Sigmarite priest is going to spend most of his time drilling the town militia, gathering funds to help repair old Missus Brown's roof that got damaged in a storm or advising a young man about his future. That sort of work is why people attend Throng and care about what they say.

On a more practical level the bullet wouldn't have stayed blessed for long, for the same reason a spell wouldn't. One of the reasons Templars used special silver bullets for the really nasty shit is that those hold the "charge" a lot better.

It should also be noted that in Warhammer untrained mages are usually only a bad day or two away from becoming a local disaster. Leaving him alive would simply be pushing the issue down the road.

It is worth noting here that the risk posed by untrained mages is that they generally try to cast magic and fuck it up. If Rikard never casts a spell in his life, despite being able to perceive the Winds, then he is in theory no more dangerous to those around him than any other young nobleman. Volans quite famously did just that, swearing off of actually practicing magic after a catastrophic near-miss in his youth, and held to the vow until Teclis found him.

Whether you believe that Rikard is willing or capable of that level of restraint is one of the key questions underlining this vote.

The Fool is putting Arcane symbols and formulas in his artworks that I bet he sells to other nobles and that is a example of spending the years since Markus left studying and messing around with magic. We have evidence he is a liar by his own words and the paintings that are present in the room.

I just want to clarify this - Rikard's paintings don't contain any specific arcane symbols - Markus knows this because part of his training was how to recognise such signs for exactly this sort of investigation. They are representations of the winds that he sees when he looks at the night sky - the Celestial and Light winds, to be specific. Azyr always looks like it contains secret insights into the nature of the world in its shapes and patterns, and Hysh is attracted to orderly structures and geometric shapes.

A spellcaster could potentially glean some significant insight into the nature of the winds by studying Rikard's works, but they're not magical in and of themselves.

My goal here isn't "Rikard will never have to go to the Colleges" it's "Convince Rikard to go to the Colleges". You might say that it's impossible, but now that we've put dear old dad to rest, I think showing Rikard that Markus trusts him enough is a path towards doing so. It won't solve things immediately, but it's the first step to doing so. I prefer a possibility of change over the certainty of losing this opportunity forever on account of Rikard's death.

Since I've seen points like this being discussed - yes, if Markus chooses to turn a blind eye, he will stay in touch with both Maria and Rikard via letter and the odd visit when his other duties allow. Whether Rikard will ever cool down enough to reconsider his current decision in that case is less certain, but it's obviously a lot more likely to happen than if Markus kills him here and now.

(Still illegal, mind.)

This seems a bit silly.

The Colleges offer other options than "Fight for the state until you die".
Perpetual Apprenticeship, magic-dampening equipment, hell you can even pull through apprenticeship until you are a Journeyman and then just never return to graduate.
They don't force you. That would be silly.

The last thing anyone wants is to have battlemagic-grade Wizards who resent the Empire.

While magic-dampening equipment and perpetual apprentices do exist, the Colleges very much do force you to serve. If you become a Journeyman and then just walk away with no intention of returning, the Magisters Vigilant will hunt you down and either drag you back or kill you (though you're likely to get a friendly visit or two from respected mentors and such first trying to avoid such unpleasantness).

Magisters are, in fact, legally obligated to provide their services when called upon, both by the nobility and the Templars, and the Colleges are obliged to provide forces to the armies of the Emperor and the Electors when commanded. Generally a given Patriarch will choose to fulfil their obligations by providing specifically trained battle wizards who volunteer, for a variety of obvious reasons... but if there are more requests in a given year than militant volunteers, well, tough shit I guess some researcher is getting dragged out of their laboratory for a bit to make up the numbers.

This does in fact lead to a significant number of wizards who resent the Empire or at the very least their obligations towards it, and that does cause problems, but that hasn't been enough to change it.
 
Yes, Lahmians exist, but that doesn't mean "a woman talked to me and took interest in what I was saying" is evidence that she is a bloodsucking creature of the night.
Meanwhile Lahmian Sisterhood: "Write it down! Write it down!"

This does in fact lead to a significant number of wizards who resent the Empire or at the very least their obligations towards it, and that does cause problems, but that hasn't been enough to change it.
Yeah, at least the Colleges of Magic owe their existence to Teclis who help found the said colleges with Magnus the Pious who legitimized it as government-sanctioned after training the first wizards with scaled down version of White Tower magic training. Even though others don't like it but have to suck it up and deal with it.

When Teclis showed up in Storm of Chaos, all of the leaders of Colleges of Magic knelt before him in reverence and respect.
 
Yes, Lahmians exist, but that doesn't mean "a woman talked to me and took interest in what I was saying" is evidence that she is a bloodsucking creature of the night.
Okay i know why you said this, i know the reason for it, you know me so you know that i know.

But the um akshually nerd in me just cannot let this die.

She is not just a woman. She is an aristocrat. There are those she would argue she is a type of bloodsucker even if they knew for a fact she is not an actual vampire :V
 
Yeah, it's not like Lahmian vampires would prefer infiltrating as totally average Imperial citizens or peasants when they can be at high society.

"Behind every great man is a woman" is their modus operandi.
I meant it more in the nascent sense of class consciousness viewing nobility as parasites, but yes, that Lahmians are very specifically a nobility targeters (and i do believe a reference to that real life metaphor dating back to Dracula) is also a point.

But anyway, she is our sister, lets stop being doofuses, she's not a goddamn vampire lol.
 
By the way, @Maugan Ra.

Just out of sheer curiosity: is it possible for Markus to subdue Rikard without killing him? He does seem to be stronger and better trained after all, so knocking his younger brother out, then tying and gagging him should be doable. All this for the sake of forcefully transporting him to the Colleges.

Mechanically speaking, subduing someone requires one of two methods:
  • You can grapple them with Melee (Brawling) in hopes of pinning them down. Being grappled prevents you from moving and imposes stacking penalties (via the Entangled condition) to tests requiring physical motion, which can eventually make you incapable of really acting so long as the grapple is maintained.
  • You can grab something large and heavy (a weapon with the pummel quality) and beat them around the head to give them stunned conditions. This does however still inflict damage, and if you reduce your target below zero wounds they will start taking critical hits as a result.
Since Markus doesn't have any rope or manacles to hand, both of these would be temporary measures until he could find some, and then actually dragging a resisting man across the length of the country would be a whole extra challenge.

For genre/plot/theme reasons, no, Markus cannot successfully subdue his brother here.
 
I also feel like people are a bit unfair to our brother here. Through no fault of his own, he's got the OPTION to use magic. He doesn't want to use it. And as long as he chooses not to use it, there's not actual any risk. But the law doesn't trust him so says he has to relinquish his political power, become a pariah and lose just about every friendship he has most likely, put himself at risk of some fanatic killing him anyway, put himself at risk of being made to cast spells with the training risks involved, put himself at a lifetime of service to justify the Empire not killing him.

Nah, I completely understand that our brother is 'No. Fuck it. I'm not doing it. This law is stupid and can go fuck itself'
 
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While magic-dampening equipment and perpetual apprentices do exist, the Colleges very much do force you to serve. If you become a Journeyman and then just walk away with no intention of returning, the Magisters Vigilant will hunt you down and either drag you back or kill you (though you're likely to get a friendly visit or two from respected mentors and such first trying to avoid such unpleasantness).

Magisters are, in fact, legally obligated to provide their services when called upon, both by the nobility and the Templars, and the Colleges are obliged to provide forces to the armies of the Emperor and the Electors when commanded. Generally a given Patriarch will choose to fulfil their obligations by providing specifically trained battle wizards who volunteer, for a variety of obvious reasons... but if there are more requests in a given year than militant volunteers, well, tough shit I guess some researcher is getting dragged out of their laboratory for a bit to make up the numbers.

This does in fact lead to a significant number of wizards who resent the Empire or at the very least their obligations towards it, and that does cause problems, but that hasn't been enough to change it.
Okay, sucks for the Empire I guess.

But even if that's generally true, wouldn't it make more sense for the Colleges to utilize a noble in expanding their influence and interest, rather than have him sling fireballs at some Gobbos in the nearest forest?

Waste not the mundane talents and advantages of Rikard.
 
Unfortunately for him, the law predicted the answer to such a statement and says, 'No, fuck you', before promptly roasting him.

It's just like with paying taxes. Nobody wants to do that, but you better pay up if you don't want to to feel the mailed fist of the Elector Count/Emperor/local head honcho tap dancing on your face. There is no other option beyond what Markus has presented him with. You have the slightest hint of magical talent, you end up in the Colleges or on the pyre. Sure, the Magisters might laugh at the meagre power you posess and may even send you away with that jewelry, especially if you are an affluent noble, but still one must go there.
 
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But even if that's generally true, wouldn't it make more sense for the Colleges to utilize a noble in expanding their influence and interest, rather than have him sling fireballs at some Gobbos in the nearest forest?
Elspeth von Drakken was an Imperial noble and she's part of the Colleges of Magic and she did have a lot of influence herself. At least at Nuln where her tower was nearby.
 
Also, I just read Daughter of Grond, and the difference between the agonizing choice between love of family and the dictates duty and faith on whether to kill and our Druchi scholar going
'hm... is this Corsair going to be more of an asset or a threat? Nah, threat, kill her and feel very good about it' is so stark.
 
Unfortunately for him, the law predicted the answer to such a statement and says, 'No, fuck you', before promptly roasting him.

It's just like with paying taxes. Nobody wants to do that, but you better pay up if you don't want to to feel the mailed fist of the Elector Count/Emperor/local head honcho tap dancing on your face. There is no other option beyond what Markus has presented him with. You have the slightest hint of magical talent, you end up in the Colleges or on the pyre. Sure, the Magisters might laugh at the meagre power you posess and may even send you away with that jewelry, especially if you are an affluent noble, but still one must go there.
Absolutely. But, speaking from myself, and not Markus. The law, especially imperial law, is not something I put any serious moral value on, nor is the law flawless in managing to be enforced. People with magical talent do in fact go unnoticed, sometimes even while they're casting spells. And sometimes, they even manage to live satisfying, morally upstanding lives, improving the lives of those around them.

Okay, sucks for the Empire I guess.

But even if that's generally true, wouldn't it make more sense for the Colleges to utilize a noble in expanding their influence and interest, rather than have him sling fireballs at some Gobbos in the nearest forest?

Waste not the mundane talents and advantages of Rikard.

The thing here is that if Rikard just gets some jewelry and fucks off, he's not really tied to the colleges at all. if he actually does become a wizard, his influence will become seriously curtailed, both in a polticial and social sense he will I think be very diminished, and mostly be 'well, his sister is in charge now'. because I don't think you can be a noble in a position of power and a wizard at the same time?
 
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People with magical talent do in fact go unnoticed, sometimes even while they're casting spells. And sometimes, they even manage to live satisfying, morally upstanding lives, improving the lives of those around them.
Then there are others who use their hidden magical talents for unsavory means which they end up in cahoots with Chaos cults (mostly Slaaneshi as nobles do indulge a little too much of their pleasures and stuff they do behind closed doors, and Tzeentchians where they learn forbidden knowledge they can have without joining the Colleges).
 
Absolutely. But, speaking from myself, and not Markus. The law, especially imperial law, is not something I put any serious moral value on, nor is the law flawless in managing to be enforced. People with magical talent do in fact go unnoticed, sometimes even while they're casting spells. And sometimes, they even manage to live satisfying, morally upstanding lives, improving the lives of those around them.
Of course, you are right.

But there is this little word there, unnoticed.
 
Then there are others who use their hidden magical talents for unsavory means which they end up in cahoots with Chaos cults (mostly Slaaneshi as nobles do indulge a little too much of their pleasures and stuff they do behind closed doors, and Tzeentchians where they learn forbidden knowledge they can have without joining the Colleges).
Those exist too. But that is a choice they have made. Not one that Rikkard has made. Expecting him to give up the life he has just because he might make a choice that would harm others is a bit unfair. I understand WHY the law is like it is. But I also understand why Rikkard is detetrmined to disobey it, to the point that he's willing to say 'kill me first then;' Like, he has no reason to expect us to go easy on him. We've had our father executed, and he's not exactly been currying our favor. I actually do want us to mend fences with him, even if this will be a gaping wound in Markus' self-image. But he is not walking out of this room without some kind of severe emotional injury.
 
Of course, you are right.

But there is this little word there, unnoticed.
Yeah, we'll actually need to tell him to stop making paintings like that. We'll need to actually give him instructions how to best avoid getting sniffed out by a Witch Hunter, using all the knowledge we have.

Which is of course treason. And I'm on board with that.
 
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