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The Enemy Within (WHF Witch Hunter Quest)

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[X] Turn a Blind Eye

I'm doing this choice purely because our boys choice in faith was rewarded through the spirit of his dead father giving one last request to protect your brother. I mean to honour that request.
 
[X] Kill your Brother

I want to preserve Markus' mental health at least once but this isn't a man deserving of trust with this kind of burden. Maybe the healthiest thing left is to hold Rikard accountable for their father's death?
 
JevvyPython said:
[X] Kill your Brother

I want to preserve Markus' mental health at least once but this isn't a man deserving of trust with this kind of burden. Maybe the healthiest thing left is to hold Rikard accountable for their father's death?
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Rikard was a child when their father was burnt at the stake. The only one at fault here is their father for refusing to give his son up to be trained in the Colleges.

It's not Rikard's sin to bear, he had no choice in the matter. The man responsible has been dead for years and his soul sent to Morr's Garden. The debt is settled and no one needs to die.
 
[X] Kill your Brother
I think the moralizing about the super necessity of killing him OOC is pretty cringe, but I enjoy commitment, and the pathos of this, and what it represents to the Church to go through with it, is fascinating, the dedication that may yet cost him his soul.

LucidProp said:
[X] Turn a Blind Eye

Markus will not survive another death in the family.
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This is simply false, though. Markus will survive. I don't object to the Blind Eye vote, but I do object to this logic. He'll live, the same as he lived before. He'll be scarred deeper than ever, it'll be a spiritual maiming, but it won't kill him, and he's not going to kill himself. People are far more resilient than they're given credit for, and many humans have dealt with far worse suffering than Markus and still they died old.
 
Kaiya said:
This is simply false, though. Markus will survive. I don't object to the Blind Eye vote, but I do object to this logic. He'll live, the same as he lived before. He'll be scarred deeper than ever, it'll be a spiritual maiming, but it won't kill him, and he's not going to kill himself. People are far more resilient than they're given credit for, and many humans have dealt with far worse suffering than Markus and still they died old.
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I object to this misrepresentation of my arguement. The text that came after the portion you quoted made it abundantly clear that I didn't mean literal, physical death, but a heavy emotional trauma that attacks Markus' motivation for being a Templar in the first place. Killing Rikard is one way to deal a heavy blow to his faith, since it is now his faith that's going to cause him to kill another family member when his entire reason for being a Templar is to seek redemption for killing his father.
 
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[X] Kill your Brother

Turning a blind eye is ignoring the man who allowed a spectre linger on his family's property and put everyone else, including Maria, at risk. Rikard was dealt a bad hand, but he's chose over and over to let others pay the price for it. Don't let Markus be another victim. Do your duty and may Sigmar have mercy on all their souls.
 
[X] Turn a Blind Eye

There's a point at which the necessity of having laws meets the cruelty of enforcing them blindly.
 
LucidProp said:
I object to this misrepresentation of my arguement. The text that came after the portion you quoted made it abundantly clear that I didn't mean literal, physical death, but a heavy emotional trauma that attacks Markus' motivation for being a Templar in the first place. This is one way to deal a heavy blow to his faith, since it is now his faith that's going to cause him to kill another family member when his entire reason for being a Templar is to seek redemption for killing his father.
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It's not his faith that's telling him to kill his brother. It's the law, and his own duty as a Witch Hunter that compels him to see this through.

At the end for the day, this is Rikard's choice that is essentially turning this into such a terrible thing for Markus. He decided that he wouldn't go with Markus to the Colleges, under no circumstances, even on pain of death.

Markus' father told him to protect Rikard, and we can likely take it at face value, but what's to say that leaving Rikard here won't lead him down a path where his soul is at risk due to his own folly? Maybe my theory is bogus, but it is good to remind ourselves that death is far from the worst fate in Warhammer (I.E, getting your soul nabbed by a daemon).
 
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[X] Kill your Brother
Rikard hates you too much to listen to any argument, and will resist any attempt to arrest him with lethal force. You can't let him go, and try though you might, you cannot capture him alive. His death is, at least, kinder than your father's.

At least he gets a clean death anyway than being burned at stake.
 
01paradox01 said:
It's not his faith that's telling him to kill his brother. It's the law, and his own duty as a Witch Hunter that compels him to see this through.

At the end for the day, this is Rikard's choice that is essentially turning this into such a terrible thing for Markus. He decided that he wouldn't go with Markus to the Colleges, under no circumstances, even on pain of death.

Markus' father told him to protect Rikard, and we can likely take it at face value, but what's to say that leaving Rikard here won't lead him down a path where his soul is at risk due to his own folly? Maybe my theory is bogus, but it is good to remind ourselves that death is far from the worst fate in Warhammer (I.E, getting your soul nabbed by a daemon).
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Markus is a Templar of the Sigmarite Cult and the Empire heavily involves the Cults in the Law. He's a enforcer of the Law and his Faith, both of which are intertwined with one another heavily. Both his Faith and the Law quite literally demands him to kill his brother, much like how it demanded him to kill his Father.

Rikard does not have any trust towards Markus or the Imperial institutions behind him because of the trauma he went through as a child. It wasn't his choice for their father to hide him, and their father's mistake led to a deep distrust of imperial authorities. However, that doesn't need to stay the same. Spatin thought of it much like Rikard does, and Markus was able to change her mind.

Right now, what Markus needs to do is show that he trusts Rikard and that he'll respect the wishes of his father in order to mend their broken relationship. It might not fix things instantly or even tomorrow, but it's the only way to open the path towards convincing Rikard to go to the Colleges someday, and to preserve Markus' reason for being a Templar in the first place.

For all that Rikard is, we've seen no signs of him actually cavorting with daemons. It puts him at risk of discovery after all, so what would even be the point? Their father wanted to hide him from the Colleges, and we know that Rikard won't do anything to compromise the wishes of the father he so loved. If Markus is there to help guide him, then all the better.

Markus didn't give up on Spatin, so he shouldn't give up on Rikard either.
 
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The emperor has just overturned centuries of dogma ruling that mutants were fine actually. Rickard's argument isn't a totally untenable reed IMO. Rickard not dying is more interesting in the potential direction it can take the story and character, but I also really don't want Markus to lose his family again, or disregard his father's dying wish.

As an aside I do dislike how frequently questers are fine with killing/dispensing with people they got a bad first impression from.
 
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LucidProp said:
Markus is a Templar of the Sigmarite Cult and the Empire heavily involves the Cults in the Law. He's a enforcer of the Law and his Faith, both of which are intertwined with one another heavily. Both his Faith and the Law quite literally demands him to kill his brother, much like how it demanded him to kill his Father.

Rikard does not have any trust towards Markus because of the trauma he went through as a child. It wasn't his choice for their father to hide him, and their father's mistake led to a deep distrust of imperial authorities. However, that doesn't need to stay the same. Spatin thought of it much like Rikard does, and Markus was able to change her mind.

Right now, what Markus needs to do is show that he trusts Rikard and that he'll respect the wishes of his father in order to mend their broken relationship. It might not fix things instantly or even tomorrow, but it's the only way to open the path towards convincing Rikard to go to the Colleges someday.

For all that Rikard is, we've seen no signs of him actually cavorting with daemons. It puts him at risk of discovery after all, so what would even be the point? Their father wanted to hide him from the Colleges, and we know that Rikard won't do anything to compromise the wishes of the father he so loved. If Markus is there to help guide him, then all the better.

Markus didn't give up on Spatin, so he shouldn't give up on Rikard either.
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Ok, but that isn't the case here. Spatin is someone we had time to work on, and talk to, and so on. Per the vote, by turning our gaze, we leave Rikard to his own devices, come what may. I don't trust that, not with the disdain he holds for his brother, and the Empire, and the gods. It seems like Rikard, at least to me, is already on a path that will lead him to damnation. Spatin was never that far gone. Hell, the man refused to call in anyone over the literal undead on the premises, even if it risked the safety of his family and servants. Does that strike you as someone who'll make good choices in the future?

Again, this is Rikard's choice that is turning this into such an all or nothing situation, and all I can really say from an outside perspective is this: if he wants to dig his own grave, he can go lie in it, along with his hatred, and spite.
 
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One of the major themes Markus has regarding his journey is redemption. He seeks to find absolution for his sins through what he believes is honest and godly work, and he extends that to other people like Spatin who didn't immediately give themselves up to the Colleges like the law demanded, or Max who has a criminal record.

If his own brother cannot be offered absolution, then what of him who killed his father and now his brother? His quest for redemption will grow heavier now that his own faith has led him to betray his motivation for being a enforcer of said faith in the first place.

More than anything, killing his brother would damage his faith in Sigmar. A deadly weakness for a Templar.

Markus has shown trust that other people can find redemption if they reach for it, and he should extend that to his own family. His father's last wish is for Rikard's protection, Maria hoped to see her family reunited, and Markus wants absolution for his sins. Rikard? We don't know what he wants, and I suspect he doesn't know either because he's lashing out blindly at a representative of the source of many of his traumas.

01paradox01 said:
Ok, but that isn't the case here. Spatin is someone we had time to work on, and talk to, and so on. Per the vote, by turning our gaze, we leave Rikard to his own devices, come what may. I don't trust that, not with the disdain he holds for his brother, and the Empire, and the gods. It seems like Rikard, at least to me, is already on a path that will lead him to damnation. Spatin was never that far gone. Hell, the man refused to call in anyone over the literal undead on the premises, even if it risked the safety of his family and servants. Does that strike you as someone who'll make good choices in the future?

Again, this is Rikard's choice that is turning this into such an all or nothing situation, and all I can really say from an outside perspective is this: if he wants to dig his own grave, he can go lie in it, along with his hatred, and spite.
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Killing Rikard now means we never get the chance on account of him being dead. It's true that Rikard holds much disdain for the Empire due to what he went through, but his core motivation of respecting his father's sacrifice remains unchanged. If he went ahead and started summoning daemons and such, he'd put himself at risk and disrespect his father's sacrifice.

It's only a all or nothing choice if we play along with what Rikard wants. Markus has shown surprising amounts of patience and a willingness to forgive criminals such as Spatin and Max. He needs to extend that trust to Rikard for the two to see eye to eye again. It won't fix everything magically, but it does open a path of reconciliation between the two brothers and through that, convincing Rikard.

I rather like the idea of Markus being the one Witch Hunter people like Spatin are actually happy to see since they know they won't instantly be sent to burn.
 
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