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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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eaglejarl said:
  1. Hazō does not know why Jiraiya did not summon Gamabunta in addition to / instead of Ma and Pa. (Note: we normally prefer not to have Hazō do all the deduction work for you; we are offering it in this case as a gesture of good faith and part of our apology.)
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eaglejarl said:
"I told you to have him summon me!" Gamabunta was bellowing, his voice so deep and loud that Noburi could feel it inside his chest. "But NO, the two of you had to go! If you two stupid, selfish little pricks—"

"Don't you take that tone with me, young man!" Shima shouted, one arm emerging from beneath her robes to wave a knobbly cane at him. "You know perfectly well that we were the right tool for the job, and you had that skirmish with the Capybaras!"
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Clarification: Does this mean that the conversation above was something Noburi never told Hazou about?
 
Note that this doesn't strictly mean that Cannai/Manda/etc. are off the table for the riftwar. If they have the same protections up then we can't bring them, but there's a few plausible answers for why that defense might not be in play here:
  • The nature chakra ward is only feasible for short-term use, like the mere hours their Ritual needed, while this excursion into the afterlife will take weeks at the minimum.
  • Sustaining the nature chakra ward for a long period of time causes second-order effects that would become inconvenient (such as, say, being disruptive in a way that brings people to investigate, potentially ruining OPSEC)
  • The whole thing relied on Pain's powers to begin with.
I think it's not impossible, for instance, that keeping all the nature chakra away was an incidental part of the Ritual, something being done by the Pain to ensure, idk, no contaminants in the chakra he was manipulating, and the anti-summon properties it had were just a bonus.

Of course, we cannot be certain that they don't have it up. If they do then things could get ugly, so it's a gamble we'll have to make. Personally, I'm lightly optimistic: this ward covered the entire battlefield with a pretty potent effect that lasted for a significant amount of time, which means that I don't think it's something Sasori just happened to whip up one day. This is a Breaks The Rules sort of effect, which to me suggests that it's more likely than not from the Breaks The Rules guy with his extra-cheaty eyes. And if it's not? If it's just, say, a proper full-sized Seal Array or something? Then I doubt they're maintaining 24/7 coverage with it.

Just weighing my gut instinct, I'd say we have a 2/3 shot of the ward not being present for this battle, and I might revise upwards with more time to think.
 
I feel that making it so it's a power of Pain interfered least with the quest work so far, and fits the best (one of his Paths has power over summoning). Saying that Ma and Pa got around it by basically being part of Jiraiya's Sage mode makes sense to me.

Also, the information sharing problem also fits perfectly well with ninja (hoard secrets) and the quest (we came up with the Boss Rush). That means there's nothing to explain… although we'd obviously love the free XP, this seems… unneeded.
 
[X] Defer the decision whether or not to rewind XP spending on chakra until we have a chance to propose alternative reasons the Bosses weren't present at Nagi.

I agree with this one. I feel like "Pain's injunction" is a strong argument and would like the chance to see what the QMs think of it.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Given that Hazou is one of Leaf's premier sealmasters, Leaf had a good chance of looting this from the battlefield, and we the thread would have been aggressive in trying to get Asuma/Naruto etc to give us any remnants of the seal. Can we say that Hazou has seen either the array and downloaded into the IN or that he has had the opportunity to study the destroyed remnants of the seal?
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I wonder if the Anti-Summoning array would be something Hazō could have feasibly researched a runic counter too…

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped thoughts?
 
eaglejarl said:
We kicked around various ideas but couldn't find a satisfactory one that covered all the issues, so here's where we finally landed; we're willing to do something different if anyone comes up with a better answer that fits all the facts:
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Shrooms said:
I don't know if this was kicked around by the QMs already, but in the Kakuzu's death/Orochimaru Immortal Interlude it was mentioned that a power of Pain specifically was to make an injunction against Summoning, so it would make sense that he set that up in their heavily fortified island, but they wouldn't have access to it this time around since Pain is dead.

If you want to excuse Ma and Pa getting around it, they fuse with Jiraiya's body when they work as a trio to use Sage Mode, so maybe it confused the injunction.
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I feel like "Nagato, who is Ninja Jesus, did it, and this was part of his contribution to the fight beyond standing in cave or having one of his paths run around with a giant bird summon" makes the most sense? This is already gestured at as a thing he can do in one of Orochimaru's plausibly canon interludes. It seems simpler to ascribe this to the Rinnegan than some giant sealing array thing to me.

There is a bit of an issue with deciding that the solution here is fuinjutsu related in this fashion. For instance, if we knew IC a few months ago that it was possible to just magic up some anti-summoning barrier with some sealing-related stuff, we probably would have tried harder to do this with runes, since one of the main problems with "Just blow them up" has been "Okay, what if two of their heavyweight guys reverse summon? What then?" and we haven't been able to come up with a consistent answer to that. If we knew that it was possible and practical enough to do that Sasori managed it, this would have changed our plan considerably I think.

On a meta-level, I think I would prefer that whatever justification we toss out at the eleventh hour here for Watsonian reasoning why Nagi Island went the way it did be as minimally impactful as possible. If we need to retcon something in for that to make sense, then in my opinion it's important to prioritize options there that do not radically change the gamestate, or meaningfully alter how story events would have gone. Things like "Well the ninja were just thoroughly uncooperative with each other so they only had so much chakra to fling around" or "Nagato prevented summoning at the ritual site" are rationales that do not impact the story or the gamestate much, but "There was actually a big sealing array thingy that could stop summoning" is quite impactful there. We haven't been playing in the game where this was the case for the N years since that encounter, so it would make the story make less sense as a story, and also sort of defeat the point of the simulationism in this respect.

(Speaking personally, this quest is pretty high effort to engage with as a baseline, but if stuff kind of just changes retroactively to make sense constantly in very impactful ways instead of minimally impactful ways, then it sort of ruins the point of investing time and energy to engage with it properly? I prefer, first and foremost, that events that have been shown in the story remain the ground truth, and that any behind-the-screens explanations or reasoning why it went that way be the thing that contorts, instead of the story canon itself being altered to explain away some inconsistency. Theres some wiggle room there, but there's only so much slack with respect to that before I throw my hands up and go "Alright, whats the point?".)
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Of course, we cannot be certain that they don't have it up. If they do then things could get ugly, so it's a gamble we'll have to make. Personally, I'm lightly optimistic: this ward covered the entire battlefield with a pretty potent effect that lasted for a significant amount of time, which means that I don't think it's something Sasori just happened to whip up one day. This is a Breaks The Rules sort of effect, which to me suggests that it's more likely than not from the Breaks The Rules guy with his extra-cheaty eyes. And if it's not? If it's just, say, a proper full-sized Seal Array or something? Then I doubt they're maintaining 24/7 coverage with it.
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Don't get too optimistic. Konan is a noted jounin sealmaster with the ability to mass-deploy seals and replicate seals of her own creation. She could easily sustain coverage of the Rift Fortress indefinitely. And potentially ship thousands of seals through the Seventh Path to the Rift Fortress via Itachi-Kisame.
 
@Paperclipped, @Velorien, @eaglejarl

What does Orochimaru say about the Akatsuki's Anti-Summoning Array? Does he know whether it was a Pain-Only ability, or whether or not it could be implemented by the wider Akatsuki? He was a member of the Akatsuki, he is a Summoner, and a high-level sealmaster. Orochimaru would've witnessed the Array being put into action (perhaps even assisting in its deployment, depending on the ruling), and he would've had to work around the Array during his contributions to the Akatuski.

Orochimaru gave information to Naruto, and we also bought Orochimaru's personal dossiers/analyses on the Akatuski, so whatever Orochimaru knows about this would have been folded into that.
 
eaglejarl said:
If anyone can come up with a better explanation for why there were no Boss Summons (or summons at all) except Ma and Pa at the Battle of the Gods, without contradicting something else in the quest, then we're happy to go with your version.
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There was mention in a dubiously canon interlude that Nagato was able to forbid reverse summoning, which Orochimaru was aware of. Depending on how that works, and given he'd been in contact with Jiraiya, there may have been (1) a message to that effect (2) speculation about what that means exactly.
If that came with a risk that the summoned party may die permanently rather than reform on the Seventh Path...
Alternately, if Nagato was also able to prevent summoning directly, and not just reverse summoning, then few would have wanted to take the risk of spending the chakra, time, effort, and likely relational/bribery cost for a Boss to come only for them to be instantly dismissed. Or spend the chakra, time, and effort only for the summoning to fail.
That probably would account for most summoning, too - if I remember correctly, Jiradad specifically said "the chakra costs are a bitch" (edit: wait, no, he said that about SC didn't he)
 
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eaglejarl said:
Important announcement herein, please read.

Greetings all, I fear we come to you with bad news and apologies. But, also XP and hope for the future.

We sat down to model the upcoming battle and realized we had painted ourselves into something of a corner. There were a lot of things to explain and predict, but the most important was this: given that chūnin-level Hazō with one young 'Wakahisa' is almost able to summon a Clan Boss, why were there not half a dozen Clan Bosses on the field at the Battle of the Gods, given that the entire Wakahisa clan was available to fill up Jiraiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, Asuma, Gai, and Kakashi? Why were there no other summons shown aside from Ma and Pa?

We kicked around various ideas but couldn't find a satisfactory one that covered all the issues, so here's where we finally landed; we're willing to do something different if anyone comes up with a better answer that fits all the facts:

  1. (Minor point) Bosses cannot be summoned away from their territory without some prep time. The amount of time can vary widely depending on numerous factors but is generally very roughly on the order of half a day.
  2. (Major point) Akatsuki knew that they were likely to face off against summons and prepared countermeasures. The Nagi Island report states: "Although the Leaf contingent had a large number of summons with them, when they reached the battlefield all of the summons popped at a specific point, as though they had run into a brick wall. Jiraiya was able to quickly re-summon Ma and Pa but no other summoner was able to duplicate the feat." Hazō doesn't know for certain how this was done, but since he is one of the few people who know that summons' chakra envelopes are made of nature chakra he can infer that Akatsuki invented a seal array that pushes nature chakra from a large area and generates a bubble that prevents it from flowing back in. If Jiraiya had nature chakra in his body then perhaps he was able to use it to re-summon Ma and Pa. Hazō does not know why Jiraiya did not summon Gamabunta in addition to / instead of Ma and Pa. (Note: we normally prefer not to have Hazō do all the deduction work for you; we are offering it in this case as a gesture of good faith and part of our apology.)

As mentioned above, this information was (should have been) in the Nagi Island briefing that was widely distributed and should have been known to Hazō before now, but we never had reason to think about it before. As such, we are going to do the following:


  1. Award you 50 XP as an apology for the screwup
  2. Offer you the chance to unwind any XP spend that you have recently made that would have been affected by this missing information (e.g. buying CR to summon Cannai) Rewinding the CR purchases would give you an additional 552 XP to spend on whatever you want, no delay required.

If anyone can come up with a better explanation for why there were no Boss Summons (or summons at all) except Ma and Pa at the Battle of the Gods, without contradicting something else in the quest, then we're happy to go with your version. (In this case you might or might not lose the unwinding-XP option but would keep the 50 XP apology.) Suggestions welcome.

If you want to undo the XP spending, vote:
[] Undo XP spending on CR.
[] Do not undo XP spending on CR.
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I'd assumed the lack of bosses was from the same effect as Nagato's reverse-summoning block seen in the question ably-cannon chapter with Oro fleeing from Kakuzu.

That seems like an better explanation than a presumably very high-investment set of antisummoning defences, especially given that akatsuki has multiple summoners, and boss summons aren't that big a threat without a Leaf-Mist alliance to get both tons of scrolls and Wakahisa, something that was very unlikely before the last ~2 months.
Instead, it just happens to be some bullshit that Pain can do, which unfortunately was a perfect counter to Boss Rush.

Plus, I don't think the implication that Sasori knew about and was experimenting with nature chakra was previously part of his character, but y'all'd know better than me.

That still leaves me with no explanation of Ma&Pa (who I'd forgotten were present).
I guess they held on by virtue of already being directly attached to Jiraiya's chakra system? (in canon they fuse onto his shoulders the help him use sage mode)
Or they could be retconned out.

Edit: apparently I got ninja'd by like half the MFD playerbase.
 
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    Emstar said:
    (Speaking personally, this quest is pretty high effort to engage with as a baseline, but if stuff kind of just changes retroactively to make sense constantly in very impactful ways instead of minimally impactful ways, then it sort of ruins the point of investing time and energy to engage with it properly? I prefer, first and foremost, that events that have been shown in the story remain the ground truth, and that any behind-the-screens explanations or reasoning why it went that way be the thing that contorts, instead of the story canon itself being altered to explain away some inconsistency. Theres some wiggle room there, but there's only so much slack with respect to that before I throw my hands up and go "Alright, whats the point?".)
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    I agree with all of this, and the current retcon (Akatsuki having sealing arrays to prevent summoning) is pretty demotivating for me. (Pain preventing summoning with the Rinnegan would be fine.)
     
    [X] Continue previous plan
    [X] Defer the decision whether or not to rewind XP spending on chakra until we have a chance to propose alternative reasons the Bosses weren't present at Nagi
    [X] Action Plan: Desperate Measures
     
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    eaglejarl said:
    Akatsuki knew that they were likely to face off against summons and prepared countermeasures. The Nagi Island report states: "Although the Leaf contingent had a large number of summons with them, when they reached the battlefield all of the summons popped at a specific point, as though they had run into a brick wall.
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    IIRC, this also contrasts MfD in (at least) one spot, where after Hazou suggests Zoo Rush, but someone made a big deal of "revealing that capability to the world".
    I'd assume Oro just knew about the countermeasure and told Jiraiya, who either told everyone else, or then invented a excuse that Vampiric Dew and summoning can't safely mix.

    eaglejarl said:
    Award you 50 XP as an apology for the screwup
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    > spend 50xp on CR
    > WE RIDE!! (on a giant doggy)
     
    Paperclipped said:
    The final ACE refresh date (prior to time runes) is July 31. We would normally be open to setting it earlier, roughly due to an argument like "Hazō would definitely have picked it right away if it was there, but the QMs didn't release it until well after the contest closed," but... there's explicit dialogue in character confirming that Noburi hadn't started training it in late-July. We're not going to do a retcon, so we're sticking with July 31.
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    I just want to say that it feels extremely bad to be penalized for what is looking to ultimately be a QM error on Noburi's ACE date. As the author of the plan where the rest of the Goketsu started training ACE, I can say that we chose that date to reduce QM bookkeeping, not because we were actually dependent on Noburi finishing ACE first. There was nothing stopping Hazo and the rest of the Goketsu from starting the training on the date that we actually voted in, and retroactively changing the date that was already voted in now that Hazo's Chakra Point total matters with regards to summoning Cannai, years after the fact, seems very unfair. Change Noburi's ACE date all day long I guess, hard to prove anything so many years after the fact, but there is no reason to change everyone elses.
     
    eaglejarl said:
    Important announcement herein, please read.

    Greetings all, I fear we come to you with bad news and apologies. But, also XP and hope for the future.

    We sat down to model the upcoming battle and realized we had painted ourselves into something of a corner. There were a lot of things to explain and predict, but the most important was this: given that chūnin-level Hazō with one young 'Wakahisa' is almost able to summon a Clan Boss, why were there not half a dozen Clan Bosses on the field at the Battle of the Gods, given that the entire Wakahisa clan was available to fill up Jiraiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, Asuma, Gai, and Kakashi? Why were there no other summons shown aside from Ma and Pa?

    We kicked around various ideas but couldn't find a satisfactory one that covered all the issues, so here's where we finally landed; we're willing to do something different if anyone comes up with a better answer that fits all the facts:

    1. (Minor point) Bosses cannot be summoned away from their territory without some prep time. The amount of time can vary widely depending on numerous factors but is generally very roughly on the order of half a day.
    2. (Major point) Akatsuki knew that they were likely to face off against summons and prepared countermeasures. The Nagi Island report states: "Although the Leaf contingent had a large number of summons with them, when they reached the battlefield all of the summons popped at a specific point, as though they had run into a brick wall. Jiraiya was able to quickly re-summon Ma and Pa but no other summoner was able to duplicate the feat." Hazō doesn't know for certain how this was done, but since he is one of the few people who know that summons' chakra envelopes are made of nature chakra he can infer that Akatsuki invented a seal array that pushes nature chakra from a large area and generates a bubble that prevents it from flowing back in. If Jiraiya had nature chakra in his body then perhaps he was able to use it to re-summon Ma and Pa. Hazō does not know why Jiraiya did not summon Gamabunta in addition to / instead of Ma and Pa. (Note: we normally prefer not to have Hazō do all the deduction work for you; we are offering it in this case as a gesture of good faith and part of our apology.)

    As mentioned above, this information was (should have been) in the Nagi Island briefing that was widely distributed and should have been known to Hazō before now, but we never had reason to think about it before. As such, we are going to do the following:


    1. Award you 50 XP as an apology for the screwup
    2. Offer you the chance to unwind any XP spend that you have recently made that would have been affected by this missing information (e.g. buying CR to summon Cannai) Rewinding the CR purchases would give you an additional 552 XP to spend on whatever you want, no delay required.

    If anyone can come up with a better explanation for why there were no Boss Summons (or summons at all) except Ma and Pa at the Battle of the Gods, without contradicting something else in the quest, then we're happy to go with your version. (In this case you might or might not lose the unwinding-XP option but would keep the 50 XP apology.) Suggestions welcome.

    If you want to undo the XP spending, vote:
    [] Undo XP spending on CR.
    [] Do not undo XP spending on CR.
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    Click to shrink...
    Off-the-wall explanation, but:
    • The Rinnegan is (allegedly) a power of the Sage's heir.
    • The Sage (allegedly) made the Summons.
    What if the reason very few Summons were used at Nagi is that people thought the Rinnegan might grant Pain some kind of power over Summons? The Rinnegan wouldn't even necessarily have to actually have the power, it would be enough if there were good reason to think it might. They wouldn't find out about it not having that power until they were in combat, and at that point it'd be too late for refills.

    Refinement on this - the source of that information could have been one of the Bosses, when their summoner talked to them to make sure they were clear for being summoned. That might explain why Jiraiya didn't mention it in the lead-up to the battle, the strike team might have only found out after they left Mist.
     
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