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Starfleet Design Bureau

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[X] Shuttledeck [8 Engineering, 32 Type-F Shuttlecraft]

uju32 said:
No it isnt.
The QM just got done telling us that civilian ships dont use antimatter fuel. That pretty much removes all commonality with military ships that already are constructed with non-standard hull materials, use non-civilian weaponry etc.

The only real overlap is food and (strategic)communications.
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You're focusing too much on the antimatter. I brought it up because an engineering focused ship like this can make fueling stations. But the economic and logistical stability of the federation absolutely has a direct link to our military effectiveness. And the subspace relay network being degraded in war, at least, is a major recurring concern, which was the other point in that sentence.

As for the rest, where does Starfleet's industrial capacity come from? Not the parts which can't be manufactured by civilian facilities if we give them the specs, I'm talking about the millions of optronic relays and self sealing stem bolts. Not to mention the pool of trained engineers and construction workers who can move to the military sector in a war. Not to mention the money for a war. I know, I know, the core worlds don't use money. Most places do, and even if you don't there's still an economic equivalent. There's the mines that actually PRODUCE all the raw materials that our fancy hulls get made from, and the other parts that aren't nearly as exotic. There's having our colonies self sufficient enough that we're not a missed food shipment away from another Kodos incident.

The military is important. But it's only the tip of a very large spear, which is the rest of our society. It's a mistake to think of ourselves as isolated from it.
 
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[X] Loading Deck (4 Engineering, 16 Type-F Shuttlecraft, 6 Cargo]
20 shuttles is plenty enough, more space for high value bits that you can't drop would be nice
 
thepsyborg said:
I admit, I'm happy enough with either option here, but I am absolutely sick and tired of the "every ship must also be a hospital ship no matter what the brief actually asks for" thing, and I think it'll be easier to outfight that next round if the lower-Engineering-score option wins this round.
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This ship having a medical capacity works whatever way you roll it. Colony building/distant infrastructure building/long range high bulk cargo - far away from anything approaching modern facilities, if there's a disaster it's going to need to tend to the ill and injured to prevent them from becoming the deceased; fleet tender/support - auxiliary ships tend to have medical facilities greater than anything but a capital ship or an amphibious assault ship has, providing medical care to sick sailors that their own ships can't manage either due to capacity or capability (the former of which is a distinct concern after a fleet battle).

That being said, if it comes at the expense of an engineering capability that we really can't do without I'm not going to vote for it, and I'll encourage others not to do so.
 
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Sarpedon said:
[X] Shuttledeck [8 Engineering, 32 Type-F Shuttlecraft]

There is no reason to sacrifice engineering capability, the raison d'etre of this class, for cargo capacity when we already have a huge amount in the pod.
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Yeah on balance actually:

[X] Shuttledeck [8 Engineering, 32 Type-F Shuttlecraft]

A Big Engineering Score for this class would be great. The most compelling advantage of the loading bays is honestly less the whole "high value cargo" thing and more simply the increased efficiency of being able to more quickly load the shuttles. But I don't think this quite equals the boost to the engineering score here.
 
Skippy said:
Yeah on balance actually:

[X] Shuttledeck [8 Engineering, 32 Type-F Shuttlecraft]

A Big Engineering Score for this class would be great. The most compelling advantage of the loading bays is honestly less the whole "high value cargo" thing and more simply the increased efficiency of being able to more quickly load the shuttles. But I don't think this quite equals the boost to the engineering score here.
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And again, I'm pretty sure the cargo handling facilities are actually included with the shuttle bay.
 
[X] Loading Deck (4 Engineering, 16 Type-F Shuttlecraft, 6 Cargo]

16 shuttles in the main hull, 1 luxury yacht in the engineering hull. Business up front, party in the back. We should call it the Mullet Layout.

darkstarling said:
[X] Shuttledeck [8 Engineering, 32 Type-F Shuttlecraft]


You're focusing too much on the antimatter. I brought it up because an engineering focused ship like this can make fueling stations. But the economic and logistical stability of the federation absolutely has a direct link to our military effectiveness. And the subspace relay network being degraded in war, at least, is a major recurring concern, which was the other point in that sentence.

As for the rest, where does Starfleet's industrial capacity come from? Not the parts which can't be manufactured by civilian facilities if we give them the specs, I'm talking about the millions of optronic relays and self sealing stem bolts. Not to mention the pool of trained engineers and construction workers who can move to the military sector in a war. Not to mention the money for a war. I know, I know, the core worlds don't use money. Most places do, and even if you don't there's still an economic equivalent. There's the mines that actually PRODUCE all the raw materials that our fancy hulls get made from, and the other parts that aren't nearly as exotic. There's having our colonies self sufficient enough that we're not a missed food shipment away from another Kodos incident.

The military is important. But it's only the tip of a very large spear, which is the rest of our society. It's a mistake to think of ourselves as isolated from it.
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Those refueling stations are also parked around gas giants pulling up hydrogen and getting it ready to be turned into fusion fuel. That's how they power the antimatter production facility. They are also perfectly capable of refueling civilian shipping.
 
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Something to keep in mind is that per the diagram the only transport linkage to the cargo pod is a turbolift, without the dedicated cargo holds of the loading deck option throughput will be incredibly limited.
 
[X] Loading Deck (4 Engineering, 16 Type-F Shuttlecraft, 6 Cargo]

I want someplace to stick valuable things so it can drop the pod if it really needs to run. I also want to use the cargo bay as a place to put more photon torpedos for any fleet it is travelling with. Being able to carry things like a spare nacelle, ammo, and (if we take extra antimatter) more fuel makes would make it exactly the kind of ship that keeps a navy in the fight instead of having to travel back home to repair and resupply.
 
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[X] Loading Deck (4 Engineering, 16 Type-F Shuttlecraft, 6 Cargo]

While aesthetically I would prefer the giant bay doors, and I would suspect that having so much deck space available will spur development of a specialist shuttle model or two to take advantage of it, having internal cargo bays makes this ship a lot more useful in potential combat zones. I've been advocating flexibility, being able to move material without the pod makes the design more flexible.

20 shuttles is PLENTY.
 
darkstarling said:
[X] Shuttledeck [8 Engineering, 32 Type-F Shuttlecraft]


You're focusing too much on the antimatter. I brought it up because an engineering focused ship like this can make fueling stations. But the economic and logistical stability of the federation absolutely has a direct link to our military effectiveness. And the subspace relay network being degraded in war, at least, is a major recurring concern, which was the other point in that sentence.

As for the rest, where does Starfleet's industrial capacity come from? Not the parts which can't be manufactured by civilian facilities if we give them the specs, I'm talking about the millions of optronic relays and self sealing stem bolts. Not to mention the pool of trained engineers and construction workers who can move to the military sector in a war. Not to mention the money for a war. I know, I know, the core worlds don't use money. Most places do, and even if you don't there's still an economic equivalent. There's the mines that actually PRODUCE all the raw materials that our fancy hulls get made from, and the other parts that aren't nearly as exotic. There's having our colonies self sufficient enough that we're not a missed food shipment away from another Kodos incident.

The military is important. But it's only the tip of a very large spear, which is the rest of our society. It's a mistake to think of ourselves as isolated from it.
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The strength of Starfleet is absolutely predicated on the strength of the Federation economy, agreed.

However, we arent talking economics, we are talking military logistics.
Weapons, fuel, spare parts, fabrication capacity.
Many of those things do not appear to be interchangeable.

The only real overlap there is the communications, where the subspace relays come in.
 
uju32 said:
However, we arent talking economics, we are talking military logistics.
Weapons, fuel, spare parts, fabrication capacity.
Many of those things do not appear to be interchangeable.
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I suspect a good engineering vessel is still pretty useful for building civilian infrastructure, whether or not it counts as civilian infrastructure in and of itself.

And these ships are going to be doing plenty of things when we're not at war.
 
uju32 said:
The strength of Starfleet is absolutely predicated on the strength of the Federation economy, agreed.

However, we arent talking economics, we are talking military logistics.
Weapons, fuel, spare parts, fabrication capacity.
Many of those things do not appear to be interchangeable.

The only real overlap there is the communications, where the subspace relays come in.
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Manufacturing hulls and weapons isn't something civilian facilities can do. But they absolutely will be the ones building all the guts of our ships that we use to flesh out those bones.
 
Candesce said:
I suspect a good engineering vessel is still pretty useful for building civilian infrastructure, whether or not it counts as civilian infrastructure in and of itself.

And these ships are going to be doing plenty of things when we're not at war.
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Doing peacetime things sure.
But time-sensitive or military-only things. For just bulk construction and infrastructure development, the sheer throughput of civilian bulk cargo and construction probably takes the cost/efficiency cake handily.

At least, thats my impression.
 
darkstarling said:
Manufacturing hulls and weapons isn't something civilian facilities can do. But they absolutely will be the ones building all the guts of our ships that we use to flesh out those bones.
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Well, hulls actually fell under civilian industry when we still divided civilian and military industry costs.

uju32 said:
Doing peacetime things sure.
But time-sensitive or military-only things. For just bulk construction and infrastructure development, the sheer throughput of civilian bulk cargo and construction probably takes the cost/efficiency cake handily.

At least, thats my impression.
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We are Starfleet. We don't even admit that we are a military. I don't think we DO "Military only" things.
 
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