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The Enemy Within (WHF Witch Hunter Quest)

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Omegahugger said:
These are also threats that Magisters risk whenever they use their magic. A lower risk, yes, but "reduced risk" is a much harder sell than "no risk". Zealous witch hunters are also not allowed to burn innocent civilians without proof of witchcraft, and yet we also both know that this happens more often than it should.

It would be good if we knew what Spätin actually wanted out of life, so we could angle our arguments better. Right now her motivations appears to be limited to hot Magisters and not dying, and I have my doubts the former is her main drive.
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To be entirely fair, I think you might be drawing from 40k when you make that conclusion. Warhammer Fantasy has the winds after all, and magic itself is not the chaos juice that the Warp is. In any case, as long as she's not foolish, the Colleges should be able to teach her how to use her magic safely and effectively, while avoiding the risks of hedge magic, which is much more likely to tread on ground Chaos has.
 
[x] Wealth and Power
Wizards can obtain great material wealth through their work, and they are also accorded the rights and privileges of nobility under imperial law. For a common-born woman like Spätin, this is easily the most comfortable life she can hope to have.

[x] Freedom
Being a wizard is not so constraining as Spätin fears. They can travel freely, accept work from a multitude of clients, and pursue their interests more easily than the vast majority could ever hope to match.
 
[X] Freedom
[X] Knowledge

I don't think freedom is the best angle? I mean, looking at her right now, she seemingly HAS freedom already, so why would she want it desperately enough to go to the Colleges? That's my take anyhow, could be missing the point entirely, lol. She definitely has a want for something more in her life, maybe duty's exactly that.
 
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Maugan Ra said:
"I don't know what that means, but if we're talking maybes, well, there's all sorts of reasons," Spätin drawls, rocking slightly on her heels as if preparing to lunge or flee, "Maybe she just doesn't feel like it's a good deal. You know, signing away your life like that, agreeing to join the army and such, and all for some bastards who hate you. Could be loads of reasons, you know?"
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I feel like Freedom is the biggest stickler for why Spätin doesn't join the colleges, honestly — it's literally the first thing she mentions when she lists the reasons why she doesn't want to become a sanctioned wizard.

[X] Knowledge
[X] Wealth and Power
[X] Freedom
 
@Maugan Ra Boss would this write in for the danger angle work?

[ ] Danger
Magic is dangerous to one's body and soul, especially if performed untrained. A rogue wizard is also prey for daemons, cultists, criminals and, regrettably, witch hunters. Joining the Colleges will protect Spätin from all of these threats and more.
- "The women in question could have disappeared in to the people of Bogenhafen and not be cared about by anyone of importance. But she was part of a group that faced down a Daemon of the Ruinous Powers and she head it's true name and it's oath to tear out your hearts, it won't ever forget her or her face. One un-sanctioned mage might be able to survive if no one knows about her, she will find it much harder with a Daemon of the Ruinous that knows her face and wants revenge let alone the Cultists that summoned after her. If she wants to survive her stay in Bogenhafen she should stay with allies that can provide her with someone to watch her back let alone help her gain access to the Knowledge and Resources of the Colleges of Magic when we leave the City."

Something along these lines is a argument I think could help our case.

[X] Community
[X] Knowledge
 
01paradox01 said:
[X] Duty
[X] Community
[X] Knowledge

I don't think freedom is the best angle? I mean, looking at her right now, she seemingly HAS freedom already, so why would she want it desperately enough to go to the Colleges? That's my take anyhow, could be missing the point entirely, lol. She definitely has a want for something more in her life, maybe duty's exactly that.
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Freedom is addressing her concerns, as Spätin brought up "signing away her life" as an example reason of why a purely hypothetical Witch wouldn't want to submit to the Colleges.
Freedom is therefore going "It wouldn't be like that, you'd still be free to travel wherever you like, and accept work from a multitude of clients that aren't the army or otherwise find ways to pursue your own interests"

The "more easily than the vast majority" bit refers to how Wizards have more easily accessible means to travel far and wide, and more resources to put towards pursuing what they want, as the argument for why this is an improvement on what Spätin is doing now

It does sidestep having to give up a few years of your life to apprenticeship first before you can actually attain that sort of freedom, but Markus is trying to make a sales pitch here so he's not going to dwell on that


Giving my thoughts on the other options...

I'm leery about Duty, because yes, there is indeed something there
But it's a something that Markus has no real understanding of
It's basically just him going "Well there has to be some kind of motive for you helping me, a Witch Hunter, and I'm going to assume it's because you feel a sense of duty and obligation towards the Empire... so like, you should go to the Colleges to serve the Empire better"

There are more eloquent ways to frame it, but I don't think it makes for a very compelling argument without a better understanding of Spätin's motives than what we have

Danger is also probably the wrong approach I think, because it's all info Spätin probably already has
If the danger of being a Witch was enough to drive her to go to the Colleges then she'd already be a Wizard
There is the "You'll have other people like you who will close ranks to protect you from persecution" angle, but I think that's better covered by Community

I think these three:
[X] Freedom
[X] Community
[X] Knowledge

Are my favored option for now, might revisit as the vote develops
I'm not sure how to feel about Wealth and Power at the moment
 
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[x] Community
The single greatest resource the Colleges have to offer is the company of fellow wizards, people who understand in a way that perhaps nobody else ever could. A chance to live among ones peers, unafraid; surely this is worth the cost?
[x] Duty
Spätin could have remained just another festival-goer, but she chose to work with a Templar to hunt down a chaos-tainted mutant, and she stood against a daemon and did not run. Clearly this matters to her on at least some level, and she should embrace it.
 
[x] Wealth and Power
Wizards can obtain great material wealth through their work, and they are also accorded the rights and privileges of nobility under imperial law. For a common-born woman like Spätin, this is easily the most comfortable life she can hope to have.

[x] Community
The single greatest resource the Colleges have to offer is the company of fellow wizards, people who understand in a way that perhaps nobody else ever could. A chance to live among ones peers, unafraid; surely this is worth the cost?

[x] Duty
Spätin could have remained just another festival-goer, but she chose to work with a Templar to hunt down a chaos-tainted mutant, and she stood against a daemon and did not run. Clearly this matters to her on at least some level, and she should embrace it.
 
LucidProp said:
I think the Danger angle is doomed to fail. Mainly, because Spätin is quite confident in herself and she hasn't met a problem she can't run away from or out-fight yet.
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If she has any brains she will have realized that a actual Demon of the Four has marked her as a target for his vengeance and this things don't forget mortals they want to Kill slash eat.

CrimsonOddball said:
Danger is also probably the wrong approach I think, because it's all info Spätin probably already has
If the danger of being a Witch was enough to drive her to go to the Colleges then she'd already be a Wizard
There is the "You'll have other people like you who will close ranks to protect you from persecution" angle, but I think that's better covered by Community
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Things is now Cultists and a Demon of the Ruinous Power know her face and if the Humans don't worry her the Daemon that has said it will tear out our hearts should scare her enough to want Allies.
 
Stewart9 said:
If she has any brains she will have realized that a actual Demon of the Four has marked her as a target for his vengeance and this things don't forget mortals they want to Kill slash eat.
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She just saw a Witch Hunter and two peasants gang up on a daemon and kill it. If she was worried about that, she wouldn't be so opposed to going to the Colleges already.

She may think that if Markus and 2 others can do it, then so can she. Call her foolish maybe, but Spätin is nothing if not confident and the fact that a daemon hasn't eaten her face yet reinforces that belief.
 
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[X] Freedom
-[X] The robes aren't a uniform; she doesn't need to advertise herself as a wizard unless she wants to. She can maintain her current lifestyle as a wizard, though with greater legal protection, the freedom to learn and practise magic openly, and the option to take advantage of noble privileges.

Spätin isn't just a witch, she's a fencer and someone who doesn't want people to hate her on sight. Freedom to be a magician is one thing (an important thing), but she wants freedom to be the rest of who she already is. Terrell's a great example: when Markus saw him, he only saw a junior metalsmith until Terrell outright said he's a wizard.

Since Maugan is encouraging sub-votes, figured it'd be a good idea to include one. The current description for Freedom doesn't really match the contents of the sub-vote I've included.
 
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Anyway, my reason for choosing Freedom over Community:

Spätin has been pretty actively poking magical people and things, so she's clearly interested in connecting with other magic users. She was visibly frustrated that Mystic Margret is a fraud. And yet, this wasn't enough to get her to join the Colleges, because this is how she sees them:
Maugan Ra said:
"Maybe she just doesn't feel like it's a good deal. You know, signing away your life like that, agreeing to join the army and such, and all for some bastards who hate you.
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Who would she expect to find in the army? Patriots and other unwilling conscripts. Not fun people to hang out with, either way. The Freedom approach, on the other hand, argues against the very picture she has of the Colleges - they are not an army, they are a guild. And that, by implication, makes the prospect of being surrounded by other wizards feel better, because they would also be more free than she imagines them to be.

The implication would need time to sink in, but we'll need time to bring her to Altdorf if we succeed, and it's better if there's a positive conclusion for her thoughts to arrive at in the meantime.
 
Adhoc vote count started by LucidProp on Sep 3, 2024 at 12:59 AM, finished with 39 posts and 31 votes.
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Votes so far.

Community is in the lead with 21 votes, Freedom 2nd at 17 votes, and Wealth and Power tied with Knowledge for 3rd at 13 votes each. Duty is 4th with 6 votes and Danger dead last at 2 votes.

I don't really understand why we're picking Wealth and Power. Nothing about Spätin suggests she has a particularly strong desire for either, and it may come off as condescending for Markus to believe that wealth and power are strong incentives just because Spätin's a peasant. Even if she did, Markus isn't the person to make this sales pitch since he's eschewed wealth ever since he became a templar.
 
[X] Freedom
-[X] The robes aren't a uniform; she doesn't need to advertise herself as a wizard unless she wants to. She can maintain her current lifestyle as a wizard, though with greater legal protection, the freedom to learn and practise magic openly, and the option to take advantage of noble privileges.
 
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