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[X] "What if asking her to marry the Archduke makes her declare for Batory instead?"

No issues with this. Stan's last meeting didn't go well. So a new, hopefully more sympathetic face, could convince Anna Jagiellon. But theres always the risk that pressing too hard makes her defiant in the face of our proposals, and she might just do the opposite of what we wish to stick it to us.

Especially because she has a very poor opinion of the Habsburgs.
 
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[X] "What if asking her to marry the Archduke makes her declare for Batory instead?"

I don't know about this one dad… Last time we met Anna, she very firmly rebuked us and the idea of a Habsburg on the throne because she knew it would favor the Lithuanians…
 
I don't know about this one dad… Last time we met Anna, she very firmly rebuked us and the idea of a Habsburg on the throne because she knew it would favor the Lithuanians…
That's why the leading option is to send Marianna in our stead - however traditionally sexist Stanislaw may be, Marianna is a promising young politician and she is capable of doing things that we simply are not.
 
That's why the leading option is to send Marianna in our stead - however traditionally sexist Stanislaw may be, Marianna is a promising young politician and she is capable of doing things that we simply are not.
That doesn't reassure me, Infante Anna showed that she was firmly against a Habsburg and I don't see how Marianna will help. She's just as young as Stanislaw is, and like you said, is a promising young politician, not an experienced one. She helped spread Stan's bravery when he was in battle and noticed what the wives of powerful men were saying but that doesn't guarantee that she'll be able to convince a woman decades her elder, who will probably quickly catch onto what Marianna will try.
 
Oh... Oh dear.

Being reminded of Anna and her extremely important role as a legitimizer of the new monarch's reign as the last Jagiellon. And given her anti-habsburg views. It's made me really begin thinking about this.

If Anna goes to the opposite side because of her Anti-Austrian mindset, and supports Bathory instead.
Should we worry about her marrying Bathory, and the Transylvanians pressing their claim via Jure Uxoris on the Commonwealth's throne, even if Matthias wins the election?
 
She helped spread Stan's bravery when he was in battle and noticed what the wives of powerful men were saying but that doesn't guarantee that she'll be able to convince a woman decades her elder, who will probably quickly catch onto what Marianna will try.
Underestimating Marianna never was a good bet - she is the brain to our muscle. She has what it takes to speak to princess Anna: ambition, intelligence and the elan of youth that always appeals to elders. If any one person can talk the princess (who holds much legitimacy in her hands) around, it will be her - the zero-to-hero Ruthenian girl with a heart full of fire. And Stanislaw will do well to learn how to lean on his wife in moments when he has reputation to spare - as a one-legged warrior, we will need all the help we can get.
 
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Underestimating Marianna never was a good bet - she is the brain to our muscle. She has what it takes to speak to princess Anna: ambition, intelligence and the elan of youth that always appeals to elders. If any one person can talk the princess (who holds much legitimacy in her hands) around, it will be her - the zero-to-hero Ruthenian girl with a heart full of fire. And Stanislaw will do well to learn how to lean on his wife in moments when he has reputation to spare - as a one-legged warrior, we will need all the help we can get.
Or Anna could look at Marianna and see an upstart young woman who doesn't see the bigger picture. I feel like you're definitely overestimating her and your hinging a lot on Marianna based on optimism of her. I like Marianna too but Infante Anna already showed herself to be a skeptic to the Habsburgs, so I'd like to question Stan's dad if this is the right choice and if it could swing undecided voters to Bathory and Zamoyski's camp.
 
[X] "What if asking her to marry the Archduke makes her declare for Batory instead?"

Our wife is great but equally untested and young as us.
I think it might be better to not press here
 
Or Anna could look at Marianna and see an upstart young woman who doesn't see the bigger picture. I feel like you're definitely overestimating her and your hinging a lot on Marianna based on optimism of her. I like Marianna too but Infante Anna already showed herself to be a skeptic to the Habsburgs, so I'd like to question Stan's dad if this is the right choice and if it could swing undecided voters to Bathory and Zamoyski's camp.
In that case, the worst case is that Anna does what she was already likely to do (and did do IRL): marry Bathory. We lose nothing by trying to reach out to her through Marianna, who is a better messenger than Stanislaw by far. We have the reputation and excuses to spare for such a maneuver.

On the other hand, Father is extending us uncharacteristic grace right now, and that's something we will want to keep until we really want to cash in on it.

[X] "What if asking her to marry the Archduke makes her declare for Batory instead?"



Our wife is great but equally untested and young as us.

I think it might be better to not press here

How can she rise to the occasion if we don't let her shoot her shot? She's got the makings of a star - let her have the ball for this.
 
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[X] "It will be done, Father."

I don't see her and Mariana getting along, but who knows?
 
I'm pretty torn so I decided to reread some parts and
Anna looks back down, still working. "You have come to me wanting something, Your Serene Highness, and that's no problem. Ever since that preening little man meant to wed me left, that's all they want these days. That's all they wanted before that, anyhow." She shakes her head. "Nobody wants to shoot dice with old Infanta Anna anymore, oh no. Those days are far behind. I weave and I watch and I wait."
You miss your wife, who seems to be trying and failing to befriend the Empress' straight-backed and powder-faced Spanish ladies-in-waiting. She smiles, they don't, and yet Mariana refuses to steal some glances at you.
it might be best to not try at all.

[X] "What if asking her to marry the Archduke makes her declare for Batory instead?"
 
[X] "What if asking her to marry the Archduke makes her declare for Batory instead?"
 

Scheduled vote count started by Rolman on Sep 2, 2024 at 1:10 PM, finished with 29 posts and 18 votes.
 
“Just Ladies Talking.” Pt. I. October 30, 1575. Łomża, Mazovian Voivodeship, Polish Crownlands.
Princess Mariana Sapieha Radziwiłłowa places a finger to her lips as if shushing someone, but what she's really doing is thinking. Thinking, yes, always thinking. Most men don't see it – including Stanisław half the time – but the young lady is burning brightly. She is alone at last.

This world is a lovely orange, she decides, looking out from the carriage into an autumn grove, standing tall beyond some fresh-fallow fields. She will be in Łomża soon. And the air feels orange, too, even if there's a chill. Oh, God, why couldn't I have been born a merchant's girl or even a serf – let me into the woods, damn it, so I can look up at the canopy and spin till it's all one great circle, rings upon rings. Who cares if I'm so dizzy I fall down?

Mariana sighs. There's no one to talk to, but she doesn't mind it a bit. When does a woman of status ever have the chance to forego her ladies-in-waiting? She's pulled strings so that some little Radziwiłł functionary will be her chaperone, a mouse of a nobleman, really, rather than that buoyant Andrzej Marszowski. She can breathe now, be herself. I am what Stanisław wants me to be – his snooping fox, his pretty vixen. Well, it's an easy role to play, at least.

She smiles, half-bitter, thinking of that one-legged fool she can't help but admire. She thinks him a very genuine man, not a peacock like half the szlachta, but she also knows what he wants: her wits, her sarcasm, her sensuality, his Mariana. He loves me and doesn't know why. She suspects he may wish that he was a wife, so to speak, or a monk, or a peasant; Stanisław just wishes that he wouldn't have to do what he has to do. Serf couples look each other in the eye, pick the lice out of each other's hair, throw pitchers and shoes at each other if they have to, no 'my lord' and 'my lady' with them. "Urszula, how's the weaving?" "I told you, Janek, I'll do it once the cow's milked!" Mariana snorts. That's probably what they're like. Stanisław loves to see strength in others because he needs all the help he can get. Herself, Marszowski, even his own father and brothers – Stanisław Radziwiłł, the admirer, the admirable. She finds him pathetic in a deeply endearing way. Pathetic isn't the right word, she thinks, that's cruel. But I've never met a man so nervy and needy. But then a flash of recognition shoots through her mind, pulling her backwards. Orange! Foxes are– heh, perhaps I'm orange.

Mariana Sapieha realizes that she has no clue who she is, really. She realizes that she's always been something to someone else – some thing, some thing – and that she only comes into herself at rare moments such as these, when there are no eyes on her, when she may ride alone in a carriage. Even sharing a bed with Stanisław ruins it. His hand on her thigh, their legs tangling in a half-sleep, she becomes someone else for him. My name's not even Mariana, she thinks. Lord help me, I think in Polish these days. My name is Maryna. Maryna, she repeats, switching into the language of her mother and father. I am Maryna Sapieha of the Lis, glory to God.

Maryna crosses her arms and begins to think once more. She is once again a pawn: in this case, to remind another woman, much older, that she, too, is a pawn, and always has been, and always will be. Could life be different? Is there such a thing as a free woman? That's an Amazon, or an Indian with bare breasts. Maryna grew up buried in a book, reading of just such strange people. No one was around to tell her no. Father was sixty-four when he had her, and Mother didn't live very long after. I never talk about her, nor Stanisław about his mother. Maryna groans. Stanisław! It's always about Stanisław! Stroking his hair and staring at his stump and climbing atop him to ride him, always giving him what he wants. Maryna wants children, and Stanisław wants them to look like her, act like her, bear her birth-sign – he said it himself. Why is it my master worships *me?* The least he could do is…

When has he ever been in the position to listen? He fawns over his wife, but never has made an effort to do so. Like I'm his favorite hound or a little toy for him, boy-child, to cling to. Stanisław does not call Maryna by her name. They spoke Ruthenian with each other the day they met, and never again. Imagine if Almighty God placed Himself at the feet of His children, asking to learn from them, she thinks.

But men are not God, nor are they gods; Maryna knows this. And still she cannot answer the question of why. Why is it that Eve failed as she did, and why is it that now, through all of creation and time, have men decided that this is cause for skepticism, for hatred, for punishment? Why is it that God, in His power and in His all-consuming wholeness, his sophia, decide that He Himself would be a man? What man has given birth to anything? Maryna crosses herself dutifully, but without real regret for thinking such things. She hates that, even in this moment of quiet, this moment of self, it has circled back to her duties: husband, mothering, servitude. And she wishes she knew that there could be more to think about. With effort, she sets her mind on Franciscus de Vitoria, how he spoke of the New World Indians and how that, inferior as they may be, they possess the ownership of themselves, for God made it so that Indian would rule Indian from the outset of His plan. Was it God or was it Saint Paul that made it so a woman should learn in quietness? Any woman can be seduced, even the first one – as can any man, save for Christ.

The carriage trundles to a halt. Maryna can hear the birds, the wind through the trees. Her chaperone appears at the door and she becomes Princess Mariana once more.

"Your Serene Highness," he says, "we've arrived."

Lady Sapieha could give a damn about the pageantry, the rolled out Persian carpet, the servants and the wine and the fine food – none of that matters. At a feasting table, she cocks her head slightly and takes in the Infanta, sitting at the head of the table.

Not so pretty… Forehead is bulbous, the skin too white (if there can be such a thing), eyes too dark, hair can't decide whether to be blonde or red. She frowns at thinking about her in this way generally, but especially because the so-called spinster princess brings a gravitas with her. That cannot be denied. There are those who, by virtue of their position, are constantly and consistently, unfailingly heard. Infanta Anna would certainly be one such person. But Mariana sees something else, for she has to by virtue of becoming Mariana once more: it's subtle, in the way that people lean in when Anna speaks, for her voice doesn't necessarily project much. They remain leaned in for just a bit too long; they are listening. And not even the most powerful men are necessarily listened to, not all the time.

To Mariana, all the pleasantries and formalities are a blur, a smear across today and a smudge in her memory; it is only after dark that she is granted an audience with the Infanta, one-on-one. Mariana finds her sitting at a desk, surrounded by letters and still in full courtly attire.

"Enter, enter," says Anna, sounding tired, pulling with her hand. "It has been a pleasure, lady princess."

A small chuckle of nervousness from the younger woman. "Is Your Highness joking?"

The Infanta smiles. "That business in the main hall is awfully boring," she says, cracking a little smile. "You detected my lie. But you? I am rather interested in you."

Mariana decides to hang back. "Thank you, Your Highness, I am honored to have such august eyes on me."

"You're young, you're pretty, a good conversationalist, though I could detect your boredom," Anna chuckles. "But I also know why you're here. Don't play coy."

Mariana nods. Honesty shall be what drives things forward, then. "Indeed, I come as a representative of the family, on behalf of my husband, His Serene Highness the Prince Stanisław, and his father, His Serene Highness the Prince Mikołaj, the one they call the Red," she says.

"And these men must reckon that this is a woman's job? Or that you, lady princess, would somehow soften me?"

"Maybe, Your Highness," says Mariana. "I more thought that it would be because when two women talk, they never think it could be anything serious. It's a safeguard, of sorts."

"Indeed," says Anna, looking as intrigued as she does understanding, her smile returning. "We are merely speaking of the trends in dresses and caps, or about men with broad shoulders. Surely, some will understand the ruse, but…"

Mariana laughs quietly, breathily. She is suppressing her nerves. "I suppose we ought to unwrap the bandage, then. I have come to inquire about the prospect of marriage between Your Highness and the Archduke Maciej."

The Infanta removes her cap and sweeps a hand over her taut, tied-back hair. She hums. "Well, why would I want to do that, lady princess?"

[] "Because he will prove easy to control, Your Highness."

Straight to the point.

[] "Because Prince Batory is too old to treat you with respect, Your Highness."

The man may prove too formidable, too wily.

[] "Because the realm needs an educated, wise ruler; that would be you, Your Highness."

Leave it to implication.

[] write-in.


Phrased as a sentence. Recall that you're playing the Princess at the moment; be sure to roleplay accordingly.
 
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Stanislaw really just needs to spend six months in a cottage in the Ruthenian countryside, running out of things to do and being forced to just sit down and listen to Maryna/Mariana talk and to the rustle of the wind and barking of the hounds.

as for the vote, Infante Anna is going to be just as unimpressed with an impressionable young man as before I think, so that's probably right out. And that makes it a tricky choice between trying to make her doubt herself on a seasoned prince she already has taken the measure of, or trying to get her to to agree to be the senior co-king of the Commonwealth and secure the state without it all just coming across as appeals to vanity and airy notions that all scream bullshit to her.
 
[X] "because we both know that your highness' only available choice is who to wed"

Putting it another way
You must wed someone, who does she really want?
 
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