Si Deus Nobiscum: A Polish-Lithuanian Scion Quest
- Thread starter Rolman
- Start date
- Mature Historic
XXXIV-III. October 24, 1575. Warszawa, Polish Crownlands.
- Location
- United States
"...the creation of a strong military frontier, staffed by our motivated countrymen. There will exist forever a bulwark against Mohammatan aggression," you say. Surely, a lifelong soldier such as Hetman Sieniawski will always trust steel over parchment. "There shall be a treaty of amity with the Turk, to coincide with an alliance with the House of Habsburg."
"I'll believe it when I see it," he says, unconvinced. "And that goes for frontiers and treaties alike. Though it is a fine idea to create border forts." A concession! "Carry on."
"But a moment, please, Your Serene Highness." It's Prince Wiśniowiecki. "Though I am not the paterfamilias, as it were – that would be my uncle, the noble Prince Michał – I am the representative of my family on the right-bank, and in the Bracław borderlands," he says, calmly, betraying nothing. He sounds inquisitive, even, as if a student questioning his lecturer. "I certainly hope that we will not be expected to help the gołota settlers start up."
You understand what he means. "Of course not, my lord, the venture of the Military Frontier shall be conducted through the leasing of Crown lands solely, with expenses paid for out of the royal purse. They will stretch from the Southern Bug to the Dniepr, swinging upwards to Poltawa." That's pure conjecture, you gulp, but mentioning Poltawa implies a curtain for Michał Wiśniowiecki's lands, too.
"Our taxes, lord prince?" chimes in Lord Tarnowski, to the grumbling support of his fellows.
"No, no, from money promised in the pacta conventa–"
"Respectfully, Your Serene Highness, we have heard more of 'gifts' for the rabble than we have of money for the realm," he says, pushing you.
"The wealth of the Austrians is near-boundless," you reply. A bald-faced lie: they've got quite a few debts. "The Emperor will surely send his son with a stipend for the treasury, to pay for the expansion of our armies – and that includes the border forts." You hope. This would be worth a talk with the Baron von Dietrichstein, but you've got to say something. "Undoubtedly, a provision for Imperial funding would be added to any potential pacta conventa – the bribes for the lowly are from what would have been the Archduke's pension," you explain.
The problem is that these aren't your promises – you're making promises that somebody else will make a promise. You assume that they must know that. Hetman Sieniawski crosses his arms. But you reckon they'd rather hear it from a Lithuanian than an Austrian.
Will you address this perhaps glaring fact?
[] Continue on: promise them titles and the ear of the Archduke, should he be elected.
There is nothing more simple than spoils for the victors. Likely to interest Tarnowski and the still-silent Tyszkiewicz, perhaps the most disenfranchised of the four.
[] Continue on: reemphasize the Archduke's malleability and youth.
The doors will be open for all: appeals to everyone and no one.
[] Continue on: speak of how the defeat of "Caesar" Iwan is nigh.
War is a great way to advance one's career, after all, and is to the benefit of Crownlander and Lithuanian alike. May resonate particularly with Wiśniowiecki (who could gain lands, should core territories of Muscovy fall) and Sieniawski (who could prove himself yet again on the battlefield).
[] Admit that you cannot make promises, while reminding them of your instrumental role in securing his nomination.
That makes these four men friends of what could be a powerful man – you hope to become one of Maciej's top advisors. Leave that bit unsaid, of course, and keep it subtle; it's good to show some humility before your elders, too.
[] write-in.
In the style of the above.
"I'll believe it when I see it," he says, unconvinced. "And that goes for frontiers and treaties alike. Though it is a fine idea to create border forts." A concession! "Carry on."
"But a moment, please, Your Serene Highness." It's Prince Wiśniowiecki. "Though I am not the paterfamilias, as it were – that would be my uncle, the noble Prince Michał – I am the representative of my family on the right-bank, and in the Bracław borderlands," he says, calmly, betraying nothing. He sounds inquisitive, even, as if a student questioning his lecturer. "I certainly hope that we will not be expected to help the gołota settlers start up."
You understand what he means. "Of course not, my lord, the venture of the Military Frontier shall be conducted through the leasing of Crown lands solely, with expenses paid for out of the royal purse. They will stretch from the Southern Bug to the Dniepr, swinging upwards to Poltawa." That's pure conjecture, you gulp, but mentioning Poltawa implies a curtain for Michał Wiśniowiecki's lands, too.
"Our taxes, lord prince?" chimes in Lord Tarnowski, to the grumbling support of his fellows.
"No, no, from money promised in the pacta conventa–"
"Respectfully, Your Serene Highness, we have heard more of 'gifts' for the rabble than we have of money for the realm," he says, pushing you.
"The wealth of the Austrians is near-boundless," you reply. A bald-faced lie: they've got quite a few debts. "The Emperor will surely send his son with a stipend for the treasury, to pay for the expansion of our armies – and that includes the border forts." You hope. This would be worth a talk with the Baron von Dietrichstein, but you've got to say something. "Undoubtedly, a provision for Imperial funding would be added to any potential pacta conventa – the bribes for the lowly are from what would have been the Archduke's pension," you explain.
The problem is that these aren't your promises – you're making promises that somebody else will make a promise. You assume that they must know that. Hetman Sieniawski crosses his arms. But you reckon they'd rather hear it from a Lithuanian than an Austrian.
Will you address this perhaps glaring fact?
[] Continue on: promise them titles and the ear of the Archduke, should he be elected.
There is nothing more simple than spoils for the victors. Likely to interest Tarnowski and the still-silent Tyszkiewicz, perhaps the most disenfranchised of the four.
[] Continue on: reemphasize the Archduke's malleability and youth.
The doors will be open for all: appeals to everyone and no one.
[] Continue on: speak of how the defeat of "Caesar" Iwan is nigh.
War is a great way to advance one's career, after all, and is to the benefit of Crownlander and Lithuanian alike. May resonate particularly with Wiśniowiecki (who could gain lands, should core territories of Muscovy fall) and Sieniawski (who could prove himself yet again on the battlefield).
[] Admit that you cannot make promises, while reminding them of your instrumental role in securing his nomination.
That makes these four men friends of what could be a powerful man – you hope to become one of Maciej's top advisors. Leave that bit unsaid, of course, and keep it subtle; it's good to show some humility before your elders, too.
[] write-in.
In the style of the above.
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
My first instinct is one of the last two, a promise of war spoils always got the nobility going. And the last is playing into our reputation, humble, but at the same time, reminding them how potentially powerful Stanislaw, the man who put Matthias forward as a candidate, publicly supported him, retrieved him from Austria, advised him heavily and has rallied his supporters and directed his representative, will be in the future.
A field Hetman rank wouldn't be out of the question, nor would the position of head of the Royal Household Guard that Janusz Zbaraski had be far from Stanislaw's reach after his now famous victory.
A field Hetman rank wouldn't be out of the question, nor would the position of head of the Royal Household Guard that Janusz Zbaraski had be far from Stanislaw's reach after his now famous victory.
It's a very intriguing situation. BUT!
Why not all of those? It's a write in I've seen before, so I'm inquiring about if it's feasible here or not.
We can't guarantee anything ourselves, but we can certainly remind each of them the opportunities that lies in an Austrian Alliance, the developments talked about for the military frontier, the prestige and titles that comes with Imperial connections and the great help that all three of those might provide in the oncoming confrontation thats bound to happen with the Russians, which might provide even more opportunities for these smaller families to earn a place for themselves in high office.
Why not bring up each of these points? Cover all of the bases in the conversation. If each point appeals to a certain voter, bring each of them up. Don't exclude the others to just one option.
Why not all of those? It's a write in I've seen before, so I'm inquiring about if it's feasible here or not.
We can't guarantee anything ourselves, but we can certainly remind each of them the opportunities that lies in an Austrian Alliance, the developments talked about for the military frontier, the prestige and titles that comes with Imperial connections and the great help that all three of those might provide in the oncoming confrontation thats bound to happen with the Russians, which might provide even more opportunities for these smaller families to earn a place for themselves in high office.
Why not bring up each of these points? Cover all of the bases in the conversation. If each point appeals to a certain voter, bring each of them up. Don't exclude the others to just one option.
[X] Admit that you cannot make promises, while reminding them of your instrumental role in securing his nomination.
These people know what we can and cannot guarantee and I think it's best to not try and bullshit people who will be able to recognize it.
We've raised the relevant issues, no need to lay things on too thick
These people know what we can and cannot guarantee and I think it's best to not try and bullshit people who will be able to recognize it.
We've raised the relevant issues, no need to lay things on too thick
- Location
- United States
I'll allow it, but think it through as you would the individual options.
- Location
- United Kingdom
[X] Continue on: promise them titles and the ear of the Archduke, should he be elected.
I think the esteemed magnates may be insulted if we simultaneously refuse to enrich them further, imply they owe us anything at all and also admit a weakness.
The malleability and youth option is a close second, as it speaks to their primal need to be reminded they are superior to others, and especially to a young German.
I think the esteemed magnates may be insulted if we simultaneously refuse to enrich them further, imply they owe us anything at all and also admit a weakness.
The malleability and youth option is a close second, as it speaks to their primal need to be reminded they are superior to others, and especially to a young German.
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[X] Admit that you cannot make promises, while reminding them of your instrumental role in securing his nomination.
Sertorius
Rebellious Legate
- Location
- Roma Invicta
[X] Admit that you cannot make promises, while reminding them of your instrumental role in securing his nomination.
One more thing about the potential hołota settlers.
The Masovians had a name. They were called Mazurs (sing. Mazur, pl. Mazurzy). In general, while the average Mazur was the poor, peace-loving noble, that ploughs his small field like a peasant (but always had a sabre fastened to the plough to not be mistaken for one, since that's a grave insult) and takes bribes, that's not the whole story. For some reason Mazurs developed a reputation for being troublemakers and brawlers, especially in taverns, hence they weren't very liked. Apparently some of them were quite fed up with their lot in life and wanted to take it out on whoever was passing by.
One more thing about the potential hołota settlers.
The Masovians had a name. They were called Mazurs (sing. Mazur, pl. Mazurzy). In general, while the average Mazur was the poor, peace-loving noble, that ploughs his small field like a peasant (but always had a sabre fastened to the plough to not be mistaken for one, since that's a grave insult) and takes bribes, that's not the whole story. For some reason Mazurs developed a reputation for being troublemakers and brawlers, especially in taverns, hence they weren't very liked. Apparently some of them were quite fed up with their lot in life and wanted to take it out on whoever was passing by.
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[X] Admit that you cannot make promises, while reminding them of your instrumental role in securing his nomination.
- Pronouns
- He
[X] Admit that you cannot make promises, while reminding them of your instrumental role in securing his nomination.
XXXIV-IV. October 24, 1575. Warszawa, Polish Crownlands.
- Location
- United States
You read the room, skepticism painted across the faces of the four men. You ease yourself down onto the foot of your bed, placing your crutches beside you, so that you may meet them at eye-level. Time to sober up a little.
"My lords, I realize that I am speaking to you as a peer, and a peer alone," you say. "I do not represent the Austrians or their Baron-diplomat or the Archduke himself, and I apologize if it feels like I'm acting as if I'm some sort of peddler for them." Hetman Sieniawski snorts; the other three glance at him.
You decide to ignore that. "What I can say is that I am in the personal good graces of the Archduke — I recommended the Emperor put him forward as candidate, and Lord knows the lad wanted it bad," you smile, eliciting subdued chuckles. "So too have I spoken with the Baron, and advised him on a pacta."
Lord Tyskiewicz raises a hand: halt. He speaks for the first time, with a heavy Ruthenian drawl: "forgive my interruption, Your Serene Highness, but I believe I understand the implication here."
"Your Serene Highness intends to have the ear of Maciej, should he win the election," adds the Lord Swordbearer Tarnowski. "And you wish to say that we will benefit from this meeting?"
"Precisely," you say, "I won't couch it any longer, my lords. A vote for the Archduke is something I won't forget: I assure you all, gentlemen, that I will mention each of you by name in an audience with His Majesty — should he become His Majesty, of course."
Hetman Sieniawski shakes his head, looking like he found a fly in his soup. "I have very little stomach for the idea of quid pro quo, Your Serene Highness. I am titled, landed, and have fought for Crown and Christ against the heathens for decades," he rumbles. "What more do I need? Prince Batory brings experience as a helmsman of state, and I believe we find ourselves in stormy waters indeed. We tried a wealthy boy, all full of promise and promises, and now we endure interregnum for the second time in three years." Why is the man a poet?
Answer passion with passion. "Unlike that cowardly, preening, murderous French fop," you say, voice filled with genuine venom regarding that bastard, "Archduke Maciej has no home to return to, no reason to run off! Recall how he himself rode into Stężyca like a young Octavian, Lord Hetman, and offered up his very life to us, to our twin fatherlands."
"I was there, and it was noble, and it was impressive," replies Sieniawski, "but the lad has never ruled a day in his life. Never bled, never made others bleed, nothing. Prince Batory is a statesman and a general and a successful one at that."
"I cannot deny the competencies of the Prince of Transylvania," you concede. "He is a formidable man and a well-chosen candidate. But let us not be naïve, my lords: when was the last time any of you spoke with Lord Jan Zamoyski? Sejm Marshal Sienicki? The Bishop Karnkowski of Włocławek?"
They remain silent. "They are concerned with their executionism, their petty squabbles over land rights and their desire to hand the country over to the gołota. But you, gentleman, you are not rabble." Remind them of what they may gain, do it again. You point to Tarnowski. "Imagine a world where incompatibilitas is in place: it would be a world where his lordship Jan Amor, may he rest in the arms of the Savior, would have been hobbled on his path to greatness," you say. "And you, too, my lord." You look to Prince Wiśniowiecki. "And you, sir, is there any greater lord in Volhynia and Bracław than your lordship? That ought to be represented in government, for that is the truth." You've effectively just promised him a second voivodeship…
You really ought to mind your wording, you realize: they know from your own admission (of course, they knew already) that you cannot guarantee promotions in exchange for their support, and you've been talking a big game. While Sieniawski seems opposed to your rhetoric from a place of honor, there are more than a few reasons that these men would support Zamoyski and his reformists. After all, would the freeing-up of crown territories from the great families such as yourself not imply a certain trickle-down to men in the middle such as these? You puff out a great sigh – internally, of course.
With a decision that you ought not to overplay your hand, you begin steering the conversation toward the tame via launching into personal attacks against Zamoyski: that he's no Polonian Gracchus and instead a mere populist rabble-rouser, much more interested in enriching himself than truly introducing his so-called "equality" to the Twin Nations. Despite this, Hetman Sieniawski leaves early, declaring that his vote shall be for Batory "not because I love the Royal Secretary," he declares, "but because I love this country – my vote is for competence." Well, at least he's not a Zamoyski bootlicker. You hope he won't go about gossiping over this meeting; he doesn't seem the type.
As for the other three, Wiśniowiecki and Tarnowski seem convinced, for they perhaps have the most immediate gains to be had, while Tyszkiewicz opaquely says that he "doesn't oppose" a Habsburg candidate. Perhaps that means he'll simply vote with a majority, specifically of the Habsburg-supporting Ruthenian variety? One can only hope.
A conference with your father, brothers, and a tired-looking cousin Prince Sierotka brings welcome, if not somewhat unsurprising news: the Senat and clergy remain whipped in favor of the Archduke, with only a few senators and Bishop Karnkowski in opposition. Meanwhile, though the hearts of the lordlings remain ever-fickle and basically irrational, the combined sway of the promise of land grants in Ruthenia and the imminent arrival of the Austrian bribes has made more than a few break ranks from the Transylvanian camp.
Exactly two weeks remain until the Election Sejm kicks off.
A few ideas come to mind for what you can do next, even though the battle-lines are increasingly crystalized.
You could spend the next day or two…
[] Delivering speeches extolling the virtues of the Archduke.
Any red-blooded Sarmatian can find himself fired up by good rhetoric, and the young Archduke has already lent a good impression.
[] Delivering speeches reminding the lordlings of the Archduke's generosity.
Remind them of the spoils to be had: land, honor, and lots of gold and silver – and that Zamoyski and Batory promise none of it.
[] Continuing headhunting nobles from middle and upper-middle sections.
Doing this again, in other terms.
[] Consulting with your family on what to do next.
Maybe Father can hand you some orders.
[] Consulting with the Baron von Dietrichstein further.
Of chief significance is ensuring the enrichment of the royal treasury, in addition to the generous bribes for the rabble-lords.
[] Seeing if Mariana has any leads.
She's got her ear to the wall, and she's a sharp listener indeed.
[] Doing nothing – wait and watch. (timeskip to Nov. 7)
That's relatively speaking, of course: you'd still attend the customary meetings and you'd still make your opinions known to those willing to listen. But there's no need to stick your neck out, not when the tide seems to be turning.
[] write-in.
"My lords, I realize that I am speaking to you as a peer, and a peer alone," you say. "I do not represent the Austrians or their Baron-diplomat or the Archduke himself, and I apologize if it feels like I'm acting as if I'm some sort of peddler for them." Hetman Sieniawski snorts; the other three glance at him.
You decide to ignore that. "What I can say is that I am in the personal good graces of the Archduke — I recommended the Emperor put him forward as candidate, and Lord knows the lad wanted it bad," you smile, eliciting subdued chuckles. "So too have I spoken with the Baron, and advised him on a pacta."
Lord Tyskiewicz raises a hand: halt. He speaks for the first time, with a heavy Ruthenian drawl: "forgive my interruption, Your Serene Highness, but I believe I understand the implication here."
"Your Serene Highness intends to have the ear of Maciej, should he win the election," adds the Lord Swordbearer Tarnowski. "And you wish to say that we will benefit from this meeting?"
"Precisely," you say, "I won't couch it any longer, my lords. A vote for the Archduke is something I won't forget: I assure you all, gentlemen, that I will mention each of you by name in an audience with His Majesty — should he become His Majesty, of course."
Hetman Sieniawski shakes his head, looking like he found a fly in his soup. "I have very little stomach for the idea of quid pro quo, Your Serene Highness. I am titled, landed, and have fought for Crown and Christ against the heathens for decades," he rumbles. "What more do I need? Prince Batory brings experience as a helmsman of state, and I believe we find ourselves in stormy waters indeed. We tried a wealthy boy, all full of promise and promises, and now we endure interregnum for the second time in three years." Why is the man a poet?
Answer passion with passion. "Unlike that cowardly, preening, murderous French fop," you say, voice filled with genuine venom regarding that bastard, "Archduke Maciej has no home to return to, no reason to run off! Recall how he himself rode into Stężyca like a young Octavian, Lord Hetman, and offered up his very life to us, to our twin fatherlands."
"I was there, and it was noble, and it was impressive," replies Sieniawski, "but the lad has never ruled a day in his life. Never bled, never made others bleed, nothing. Prince Batory is a statesman and a general and a successful one at that."
"I cannot deny the competencies of the Prince of Transylvania," you concede. "He is a formidable man and a well-chosen candidate. But let us not be naïve, my lords: when was the last time any of you spoke with Lord Jan Zamoyski? Sejm Marshal Sienicki? The Bishop Karnkowski of Włocławek?"
They remain silent. "They are concerned with their executionism, their petty squabbles over land rights and their desire to hand the country over to the gołota. But you, gentleman, you are not rabble." Remind them of what they may gain, do it again. You point to Tarnowski. "Imagine a world where incompatibilitas is in place: it would be a world where his lordship Jan Amor, may he rest in the arms of the Savior, would have been hobbled on his path to greatness," you say. "And you, too, my lord." You look to Prince Wiśniowiecki. "And you, sir, is there any greater lord in Volhynia and Bracław than your lordship? That ought to be represented in government, for that is the truth." You've effectively just promised him a second voivodeship…
You really ought to mind your wording, you realize: they know from your own admission (of course, they knew already) that you cannot guarantee promotions in exchange for their support, and you've been talking a big game. While Sieniawski seems opposed to your rhetoric from a place of honor, there are more than a few reasons that these men would support Zamoyski and his reformists. After all, would the freeing-up of crown territories from the great families such as yourself not imply a certain trickle-down to men in the middle such as these? You puff out a great sigh – internally, of course.
With a decision that you ought not to overplay your hand, you begin steering the conversation toward the tame via launching into personal attacks against Zamoyski: that he's no Polonian Gracchus and instead a mere populist rabble-rouser, much more interested in enriching himself than truly introducing his so-called "equality" to the Twin Nations. Despite this, Hetman Sieniawski leaves early, declaring that his vote shall be for Batory "not because I love the Royal Secretary," he declares, "but because I love this country – my vote is for competence." Well, at least he's not a Zamoyski bootlicker. You hope he won't go about gossiping over this meeting; he doesn't seem the type.
As for the other three, Wiśniowiecki and Tarnowski seem convinced, for they perhaps have the most immediate gains to be had, while Tyszkiewicz opaquely says that he "doesn't oppose" a Habsburg candidate. Perhaps that means he'll simply vote with a majority, specifically of the Habsburg-supporting Ruthenian variety? One can only hope.
A conference with your father, brothers, and a tired-looking cousin Prince Sierotka brings welcome, if not somewhat unsurprising news: the Senat and clergy remain whipped in favor of the Archduke, with only a few senators and Bishop Karnkowski in opposition. Meanwhile, though the hearts of the lordlings remain ever-fickle and basically irrational, the combined sway of the promise of land grants in Ruthenia and the imminent arrival of the Austrian bribes has made more than a few break ranks from the Transylvanian camp.
Exactly two weeks remain until the Election Sejm kicks off.
A few ideas come to mind for what you can do next, even though the battle-lines are increasingly crystalized.
You could spend the next day or two…
[] Delivering speeches extolling the virtues of the Archduke.
Any red-blooded Sarmatian can find himself fired up by good rhetoric, and the young Archduke has already lent a good impression.
[] Delivering speeches reminding the lordlings of the Archduke's generosity.
Remind them of the spoils to be had: land, honor, and lots of gold and silver – and that Zamoyski and Batory promise none of it.
[] Continuing headhunting nobles from middle and upper-middle sections.
Doing this again, in other terms.
[] Consulting with your family on what to do next.
Maybe Father can hand you some orders.
[] Consulting with the Baron von Dietrichstein further.
Of chief significance is ensuring the enrichment of the royal treasury, in addition to the generous bribes for the rabble-lords.
[] Seeing if Mariana has any leads.
She's got her ear to the wall, and she's a sharp listener indeed.
[] Doing nothing – wait and watch. (timeskip to Nov. 7)
That's relatively speaking, of course: you'd still attend the customary meetings and you'd still make your opinions known to those willing to listen. But there's no need to stick your neck out, not when the tide seems to be turning.
[] write-in.
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- Location
- United States
This could be on the cards for a fun sidestory threadmark someday…
