Circular Reasoning [Babylon 5 AU splinter colony quest]

Once we have 4 pops we can build Lab IV. At this point Lab III is locked down researching technology from the Future Transport, and Lab I is on Blight Research and might pivot to genetic manipulation after that. Labs II and IV may assist with the transport, or go back to researching psi-crystals for military applications, or maybe even do some basic agricultural research. We might want to try some research to create an orbital laboratory module so when we get our 5th pop Lab V can be in orbit and focus on research that we don't want close to population centers. Things that cause lots of noise and big booms you don't want in your atmosphere.

I would like to get at least one round of military research into building weaponry and defenses based off of psi-crystal technology before we start trying to defend our orbital presence.

thanks for the chapters and for writing.

Servetus said:

-[] Build 1 Autofactory and Boost to Orbit. Cost: 2 Autofabber Actions (4/5). -5 Minerals, 1 Orbital Action

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You need to research Orbital Factories to do this. It's a 100-point tech but you can't just plug it into your orbital station and call it a day; basically it just consists of vacuum-hardening the components and accounting for microgravity in the build process. The Autofactories as is are not designed for hard vacuum or zero g.

Id pivot towards coming up with space defenses for military.

For diplomacy maybe discuss plans with the Matriarchs.

Logos01 said:

You need to research Orbital Factories to do this. It's a 100-point tech but you can't just plug it into your orbital station and call it a day; basically it just consists of vacuum-hardening the components and accounting for microgravity in the build process. The Autofactories as is are not designed for hard vacuum or zero g.

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Good to know. The plan needs major reworking in that case. On the plus side, that frees up 2 shuttles for something else...

Logos01 said:

You guys can scavenge existing infrastructure/buildings for other purposes if you want, as well. The most complex and fiddly bit of building a Standard Shuttle is the shuttle's fusactor -- so if you wanted to pay the same cost as a Gunshuttle and repurpose one of the colony's Basic Fusion Reactors to it you'd get a Standard Shuttle out. This is slightly inefficient with Resources but could let you expand operations.

The same also holds if you wanted to build a second Astro-Mining Bay.

Once you have the Future Thrusters unlocked you could also upgrade the Standard Shuttle to an Advanced Shuttle that would normally require 2 Autofactory actions (to represent the need for 2 basic fusactors to provide thrust power) that would also allow interplanetary ops, albeit at a penalty.

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What kind of costs would be involved in rebuilding Gunshuttles into standard Shuttles, or other configurations? With building a new reactor vs with sticking an existing one in?

KNakamura said:

Id pivot towards coming up with space defenses for military.

For diplomacy maybe discuss plans with the Matriarchs.

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Conventionally designing ship-mounted weaponry would probably require lab time. We could have the militia use one of the psi-crystal machines and some factory time to make a larger version and attach it to one of the shuttles. Then do some target practice on hunks of slag from the astro-mining bay while another shuttle hangs out to provide assistance in case they overload the power systems or split the hull open. It would be a pretty kludgy solution though.

I more meant "Ask the milita to come up with doctrine so we can focus our research"

i.e "What do they think they'd prefer to defend with, so we can focus on researching it."

Servetus said:

What kind of costs would be involved in rebuilding Gunshuttles into standard Shuttles, or other configurations? With building a new reactor vs with sticking an existing one in?

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So the Gunshuttles are basically "baby" Project Orion rockets. They use loaded up reserves of your gun ammunition -- a binary liquid propellant -- to detonate behind the shuttle over and over and absorb the blast into a blast plate which is then connected to oversized shock absorbers. (With the cockpit having secondary shock-absorbers for a smoother ride for the pilot than the rest of the shuttle.) They generate thrust by continuously detonating pulsed explosions over and over. This is why they cost Energy/t -- to produce the fuel, and that can only be done with access to a munitions plant.

They are loud and noticeable, but have very low on-board power requirements and thus don't need fusion reactors.

The cost of building a new Standard Shuttle assuming you have a spare Basic Fusion Reactor is analogous to building a new Gunshuttle, but there's not much chance of retrofitting -- they're just too different structurally. You'd have to rip out the shockplates and replace them with fusion-torch thrusters and at that point all you're holding onto is the cargo section and cockpit.

That being said, there is an upgrade path for the Gunshuttles -- but it's not to a Standard Shuttle. Using telekinetic force on the push-plate instead of bilpro explosives would require a fusactor and psi-crystal machine time per Teekshuttle but would come with the benefit of being functionally equivalent to the notional Advanced Shuttles. (Teekshuttles would also be a lot lower profile on sensors given the lack of exhaust plumes and the lower power profile compared to other similarly-ranged vehicles.)

Logos01 said:

That being said, there is an upgrade path for the Gunshuttles -- but it's not to a Standard Shuttle. Using telekinetic force on the push-plate instead of bilpro explosives would require a fusactor and psi-crystal machine time per Teekshuttle but would come with the benefit of being functionally equivalent to the notional Advanced Shuttles. (Teekshuttles would also be a lot lower profile on sensors given the lack of exhaust plumes and the lower power profile compared to other similarly-ranged vehicles.)

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Are you can saying we can make some reactionless drive craft right now? We wouldn't need to research the drive technology; just work up a working model and go from there. Because that could seriously change plans.

Or is that a research path?

Either way it would be good to know, but whether we could start doing that now vs when we open up some lab time will change some plans.

KNakamura said:

I more meant "Ask the milita to come up with doctrine so we can focus our research"

i.e "What do they think they'd prefer to defend with, so we can focus on researching it."

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I don't think anyone in the colony has the background to make that kind of judgement call. No up-timer served in Earth Force, so as far as missiles vs direct energy weapons, or beams vs bolts I don't think they would know. In addition we have access to our own technological options. Like telekinetic drives apparently.

Servetus said:

I don't think anyone in the colony has the background to make that kind of judgement call. No up-timer served in Earth Force, so as far as missiles vs direct energy weapons, or beams vs bolts I don't think they would know. In addition we have access to our own technological options. Like telekinetic drives apparently.

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They are, bluntly, more knowledgeable than us either IQ or OQ. Also, they are the ones being asked to use them and potentially die using them. If nothing else, I generally think that getting people on board is wise.

KNakamura said:

They are, bluntly, more knowledgeable than us either IQ or OQ. Also, they are the ones being asked to use them and potentially die using them. If nothing else, I generally think that getting people on board is wise.

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I think if we ask them @Logos01 will just have to set up another thread vote to decide what they say. And we are still working on pretty fundamental space technologies right now.

Servetus said:

Are you can saying we can make some reactionless drive craft right now? We wouldn't need to research the drive technology; just work up a working model and go from there. Because that could seriously change plans.

Or is that a research path?

Either way it would be good to know, but whether we could start doing that now vs when we open up some lab time will change some plans.

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You're not quite to the point of making it work right now, but in general principle if you make a teek gun and weld it to a shock absorber such that it would shoot a bowling ball at the shock absorber that would then push the ball back into the firing position, yes that could count as a very, very basic telekinetic thruster. And as teek guns are already recoil-less (Ergo Mira's semi-auto sawedoff puntgun she goes "a'catwhalin'" with -- and remember this is a 50 millimeter bore pump-action 'shotgun' that doesn't vaporize the collarbone of the human that fires it -- that would also apply here. Telekinetic force when introduced on an object is originating from an unknown/funky-physics vector and thus doesn't comply with conventional Newtonian Mechanics other than not being a source of free energy (or at least, not when done the way you guys are doing it. Actual masters of mind-matter stuff don't need battery packs and catalyst crystals. Or do they?)

But there's a whole lot of stuff you'd need to work out to make that feasible. Improved telekinetic efficiency crystal patterns, teek persistence, scale of teek effects.

But yes you can absolutely pull this off.

Servetus said:

I don't think anyone in the colony has the background to make that kind of judgement call.

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The closest anyone comes is Mira, and she was a ground-pounder Master Sergeant before being a teep in the armed forces was made a felony.

@Logos01, under Economic Status, you're showing 3 Peat Mine Complexes; our build this turn should bring up to 4, I think. Also, you didn't add the Biomass from Honeypede cultivation to our ongoing/maintenance expenses. Sounds like you've been having a hard time, I hope my double-checking is more boon than burden.

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We have a 17 Energy Surplus?

Okay, I really want to build a new shiny reactor, but I don't think we need it immediately. Need to adjust the build order.

Edit: 2 of our 12 Basic Fusion Reactors got boosted up the Gravity Well last turn. So that would bring us down to 10 Reactors and +11

Or even a notice-me-not aura, especially if we can figure out how to broadcast it through hyperspace.

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I think that might be a definite strategy for our ships to focus on in Hyperspace. Hiding a whole solar system could be challenging though. Hyperspace does enhance the range of telepathic abilities however...

Servetus said:

Edit: 2 of our 12 Basic Fusion Reactors got boosted up the Gravity Well last turn. So that would bring us down to 10 Reactors and +11

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Oooooh, I forgot that we've got multiple power-grids now. I'm going to have to think about how to model/report that.

For now, I'm just gonna pretend they can plug those two reactors into the solar sats and beam that power back groundside.
(whaddya mean, the solar sats are at capacity? don't bother me with relevant details like that, I'm tryin ta relax here!)

TeaMug said:

Oooooh, I forgot that we've got multiple power-grids now. I'm going to have to think about how to model/report that.

For now, I'm just gonna pretend they can plug those two reactors into the solar sats and beam that power back groundside.
(whaddya mean, the solar sats are at capacity? don't bother me with relevant details like that, I'm tryin ta relax here!)

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I assume their power is exclusively going to the Orbital Core and the Astro-mining Bay. Just take them off the table since they aren't feeding into the Colony's grid, but the bay and the core aren't drawing power from the colony either.

TeaMug said:

Sounds like you've been having a hard time, I hope my double-checking is more boon than burden.

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I do not exaggerate when I say I had the mental capacity of a parboiled goldfish for a while there. I'll recheck.

Servetus said:

I think that might be a definite strategy for our ships to focus on in Hyperspace. Hiding a whole solar system could be challenging though. Hyperspace does enhance the range of telepathic abilities however...

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You don't, strictly speaking, have to hide the star system. Just your beacon. Or you could do something crazy and have a sort of Astronomicon thing going on where instead of tachyon network you build your own telepathic tightbeam signals instead. Only somebody who knew how to be in the right location to even pick it up in the first place could follow it. Of course, this only works if you go out there first, rather than someone else coming to you. Unless you board the explorer and disappear the crew.

@TeaMug A few more corrections. The Grass Farm doesn't consume a job, it's fully automated. The Blight-hardened Biomaterial facility should be consuming -2 energy not -1, 1 for being Blight-hardend and 1 for being turned on that turn.

TeaMug said:

Oooooh, I forgot that we've got multiple power-grids now. I'm going to have to think about how to model/report that.

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Tl;Dr -- For now it's just "a module requires a dedicated Basic Fusion Reactor".

Modules have declared functions and that's that.

I'm not doing grids or what have you, not for now. Hopefully it won't matter by the time it becomes relevant. (Once you have a second proper city on another planet or fully habitable self-sufficient station I'm hoping the Founder Era will be ended.)

I should point out that the Core habitability section is barely better than today's ISS. The spin section manages 1/3rd gravity, with a dedicated exterior water tank that doubles as exercise pool for bone/muscle density retention and radiation shield. It grows phytoplankton for O2 with an emergency backup electrolysis system to cover failures.

It's /not/ a permanent residence or anything like it. People are rotated in and out on month-long shifts, and there's room for about a dozen people at once. Each additional Module sent up increases this to suit the needs of the station.

Point is, the Crystal Palace this very much ain't.

Visualize more like The Expanse's Edward Israel, with docking stations where thrusters would be, and that's a good mental image of your orbital station.

@Logos01 when does the founder era end? Also how expensive it is to build the our version of the crystal palace it looked rad as hell but we probably do an onei'll type station than what you're showing. It be cheaper to build and very easy to expand and build more connecting stations with the many designs of embedded the station on an asteroid for protection, expansion and other things.

[X] Fears for the Future
-[X] Economy
--[X] 1 Autofactory will serve as 3 Autofabbers this turn (1/7)
--[X] Build 1 Storm Hardened Autofactory. Cost:2 Autofabber Actions (2/5) -6 Minerals
--[X] Seed 1 Storm Peat deposit. -10 food, 1 Autofabber Action (3/5)
--[X] Build 1 Storm hardened Storm Peat mine. -1 Mineral, 1 Autofabber Action (4/5)
--[X] Build 1 Storm hardened Basic Hab Complex. Cost: -1 Mineral 1 Autofabber Action. (5/5)
--[X] Build 2 Storm Hardened, Blight Hardened Exo-womb nurseries. Cost: Cost: 2 Autofactory Actions (3/8). -6 Minerals. -2 Food
--[X] Build 2 Storm hardened Psi-Crystal Machines. Cost: -12 Minerals, -4 Biomass, 2 Psi-Crystal Builds (2/4), 2Autofactory Actions (5/8)
--[X] Build 1 Psi-drone pops, assign to Lab III.Cost: 1 Autofactory Actions (6/8), 1 Psi-Crystal Machine Actions [3/4], -2 Minerals.
--[X] Build Sensor Grid Satellites. Cost: -5 Minerals, 1 Autofactory Action (7/8), 1 Orbital Action
--[X] Total Build Cost: -10 Food, -31 Minerals, -4 Biomass. Energy needs will rise and we will drop into deficit temporarily even if we spin up the syngas
--[X] Set syngas burn rate to (3/3) to help mitigate the deficit
--[X] 1 Autofactory and 1 Psi-Crystal machine will be held in reserve to support other Actions
--[X] Blight Harden the medical facility in the Cultural Center, the Habitation buildings, and all Exo-womb nurseries
-[X] Orbital
--[X] 1 Action to supply mining bay [1/8]
--[X] 1 Action to support construction [2/8]
--[X] 4 Actions Asteroid mining [6/8]
--[X] 2 Actions to support Military Action [8/8]
-[X] Military
--[X] Contemplating Space Combat 101: We have no idea what it means to fight in space. No teep from the future was allowed to join Earthforce, and all Mira's experience was on the ground. So we need to work things out from first principles. 2 shuttles and associated ground crews will be made available to the militia for theorycrafting and training purposes. Shuttles are clearly not starfighters, and we have seen Earth Propaganda from the future so we know Starfuries are a thing, but we can still come up with experiments and theories about what we might need to defend ourselves. Like, is dogfighting a thing? How does that work when a ship being chased can just cut thrust and spin around? Continuing training in EVA and potentially attempting to board vessels can be practiced. If new equipment is needed resources have been held in reserve to facilitate.
--[X] "Mira, please don't just make a giant shotgun and try to strap it to a shuttle."
-[X] Exploration
--[X] Kobold Study: We know very little about our little friends; their nutrition, their reproduction and life-cycle,and their medical needs. If we are contemplating allowing Kobolds in off-planet installations we need a fuller understanding of them.
-[X] Research
--[X] Lab I will study Blight Cure I
--[X] Lab II will continue existing High-Tensile Strength Biomaterial research
--[X] Lab III will study Future Transport:Transport Hulls
-[X] Diplomacy
--[X] Try to gauge the mood in the colony concerning the proximity of the Hyach and Brakiri, and the fears of some of the up timers that we are in the path of a future war that will see horrifying crimes by the Dilgar as well as the intercession of Earth. Awareness of threats is good, but panic or paranoia are not; so discussions about what we should do to protect ourselves is better than letting things fester.
-[X] Personal
--[X] Meet with the Matriarchs to discuss the expansion of the Exo-wombs. With the initial success of the technology in our 2 existing facilities expansion to meet the needs of the population seems prudent. We will have teenagers turning into tweens in the coming years, and potentially wanting to start families of their own so the elimination of wait lists and expansion of service to all who want to avail themselves of the technology seems prudent. While the expansion of the facilities does reduce the relative advantage the Clans have from their set aside facility,other accommodations might be made to allay concerns from the Matriarchs about losing relevance or influence.


Sorry for the delay getting the plan out.

This plan will see us drop into energy deficit for a turn, but we are at 26/30 and can pop in a new reactor or solar satellite + farms very easily next turn. I just though the the expansion to the Psi-crystal Machines and Exo-womb Nurseries was worth a turn of deficit. I'm not sure if the military action will come to anything but it felt like we needed a first step when none of us know anything about space combat other than that it's a thing in the future. Just in case they come up with something absolutely insane, or one of the science actions needs it, there is an Autofactory and Psi-crystal machine on standby.

Edit: Actually, I'm not sure if I calculated the Energy costs right in my head, we may face deficit. I have a hard time working out which buildings give a base -1 energy through infrastructure cost before other costs.

Spyglass lore said:

@Logos01 when does the founder era end? Also how expensive it is to build the our version of the crystal palace it looked rad as hell but we probably do an onei'll type station than what you're showing. It be cheaper to build and very easy to expand and build more connecting stations with the many designs of embedded the station on an asteroid for protection, expansion and other things.

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You don't currently have the means to build even a small version of the Crystal Palace. The actual station in Cyberpunk is a tourist trap/transportation hub with a permanent residency of 5,000, mostly catering to the very affluent.

But it was also built by a society that had dozens of O'Neill Cylinders (smaller ones) in orbit. (Highrider nations.)

A full on O'Neill Cylinder is also right out. Even the smallest varieties -- that would still be cylinders as opposed to a Bishop Ring or Stanford Torus -- are just too massive in scale.

Meanwhile what you have now is the simplest design that could be deployed fairly safely. A free spinning frictionless seal that is also airtight is a technical nightmare to attempt but your people came up with an adequate solution based on ferromagnetic fluids.

And it needs to be simple because if it breaks down while people are up there, they won't have much time to get to emergency pods and hope for rescue.

The reason for counterweighted spin decks for example is that they can be ballasted easily to avoid acyclic mass distribution that could unseat the couplings. With a toroid/donut that has to connect with a central axis that's actually much harder because you are having to balance a plane rather than an axis.

There's also the fact that, again, everything you guys are doing is... well, the Crystal Palace I mentioned before has a permanent staff of 5,000 but took tens of thousands of workers to build. Your entire population is crossing the 800 people mark this upcoming turn.

So you gotta work with the scale of what you have.

As to when the Founding Era will end -- I have a few criteria in my head for what will trigger that. The first of which you guys are crossing this upcoming turn -- hitting your 4th Pop. That's just the first, and there are others.

So... soon(TM). OP will surely deliver <tumbleweed>.

Servetus said:

--[X] "Mira, please don't just make a giant shotgun and try to strap it to a shuttle."

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"Haha don't be silly, that's for colony ships".

[X] Fears for the Future

Looks good. I agree that we don't know what we need, so trying to wargame it out is at least *something*

I should point out that being at maximum occupancy will prevent further pop growth until more Hab Space is available.

Logos01 said:

I should point out that being at maximum occupancy will prevent further pop growth until more Hab Space is available.

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I think you'll find there is a Hab Complex in the build order. It was always there, there was never a Warehouse in that spot.