Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Reader mode
Noumero said:
Meet Orochimaru.
  • Cards on the table: Hazou's made significant progress on the rift project. He's willing to hand everything over...
    • ... if Orochimaru, symmetrically, hands over his countermeasures for the Akatsuki and any plans and prototypes related to developing additional ones
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is all well and good. But Hazou is giving up (at best) a couple months of research here. Oro is giving up much much more. It's so asymmetric I'm seriously concerned that he'll kill us over this.
 
Lord Marshal said:
Will we lose 3D Sealing? Absolutely.
Will we become the Akatsuki hostage, forced to teach Sasori 3D Sealing/work on the rift? Probably.
But we could, maybe, survive it, as long as we don't directly break Itachi's orders.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is such a negative outcome from my PoV that I am not concerned with mitigating it. We've lost at that point. I don't care what happens. I would vote to attempt a runic failure in the hopes it kills Itachi too.

Could be a genuine values difference.
 
Sir Stompy said:
This is such a negative outcome from my PoV that I am not concerned with mitigating it. We've lost at that point. I don't care what happens. I would vote to attempt a runic failure in the hopes it kills Itachi too.

Could be a genuine values difference.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

More of a difference of opinion regarding the capabilities of the hivemind, Velorien's post regarding Hazou/Akatsuki route generally explain pretty well my position.

Velorien said:
The QMs sometimes discuss the scenario where the players achieve S-rank and certain kinds of challenges are taken off the board. The general consensus is that they will be just replaced with other kinds of challenges--you can look at any country in the world and see a vast list of problems that good intentions and a monopoly on force haven't solved, sometimes after centuries of effort.

I think the same would be true in a Pain-dominated world. Punching your way to world domination would not be an option while Pain was on the board, sure. But you could convert Pain (assuming he isn't receptive to Uplift to begin with). You could assassinate Pain (tell me you couldn't, with sufficient planning and research time). You could outmanoeuvre Pain politically in a thousand ways in any scenario in which he isn't willing to just murder everyone who disagrees with him. You could... frankly, you probably could punch your way to world domination; I refuse to believe that Pain can stack buffs better than Team Uplift given enough time, secret-hunting, research, and optimisation. And beyond that, I'm confident in the hivemind's collective ability to come up with countless approaches and solutions I can't.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

As long as Hazou survives/ has enough capabilities to be a reasonably free actor(Ex. not mind controlled sealing puppet), we're in the game. Aside from edge cases like "Hazou is now a living puppet", it's just a matter of assessing the situation and trying to find the best way to improve the world.
Killing the Akatsuki is, after all, a means to improve the world, not the objective of the quest. If we fail to kill them and survive, then we study the new status quo and see what are our options. After all "One of the major powers in the world that is still growing stronger" is still a better place than "Missing-nin hunted by everyone, whose survival should be counted in weeks".

RandomOTP said:
For the record, if Hazou becomes a loot pinata for the Akatsuki, I'm voting in that Hazou kills himself.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If we become a loot pinata for the Akatsuki, they will take everything they want before Hazou can kill himself, if he does later, it's not like they would care. :V
 
Lord Marshal said:
If we become a loot pinata for the Akatsuki, they will take everything they want before Hazou can kill himself
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How will they take runecrafting? The only rune is on the 7th Path, and the QMs have said that there was a huge discussion amongst themselves over whether or not Hazou's Iron Nerve copy of the Great Seal would be enough to unlock runecrafting.

I don't think they're getting runecrafting unless Hazou or Orochimaru teach it to them. There simply aren't enough runes in existence to reverse engineer.

And while the Akatsuki can compel Hazou to teach them runecrafting, they can't force him to teach them runecrafting.
 
Sir Stompy said:
This is all well and good. But Hazou is giving up (at best) a couple months of research here. Oro is giving up much much more. It's so asymmetric I'm seriously concerned that he'll kill us over this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not just months of our research, also who-knows-how-many months or years of Minato's research. Which we arguably have a claim to, since we deciphered it.

Also the whole point is that we want to move on from it being an adversarial situation between us. So it's not a matter of who gives up more, it's a matter of whether each party shares everything they have that may give the other party an edge over the Akatsuki for the purposes of their personal projects.
 
Last edited:
Noumero said:
@Velorien, @eaglejarl, @Paperclipped, did Naruto order us to give Oro the rift seals our rift-related notes and prototypes? As opposed to him merely making encouraging noises in that regard which made it clear that he thinks we should do it but he's uncomfortable with the idea of giving Oro things so there wasn't the full force of the Hokage's will behind that encouragement?

(You want it to be the latter. If it's the latter, I have a high-risk high-reward Oro conversation idea. If it's the former, it doesn't work.)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm afraid Naruto was explicit. You're to give Orochimaru everything useful for rift research other than Minato's original work (which he discouraged you from handing over, but didn't explicitly forbid).
 
Noumero said:
Not just months of our research, also who-knows-how-many months or years of Minato's research. Which we arguably have a claim to, since we deciphered it.

Also the whole point is that we want to move on from it being an adversarial situation between us. So it's not a matter of who gives up more, it's a matter of whether each party shares everything they have that may give the other party an edge over the Akatsuki for the purposes of their personal projects.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You want to tell him it's Minato's original work? It certainly raises the stakes of the pitch. But I'm worried he'll act to claim the rest by aura blasting Hazou until we cave and spill the beans.

As for moving past an adversarial relationship, sure, I want to do that too. I just think he's not receptive enough to do true collaboration and that he won't view this as enough for reciprocity. Then he'd be affronted at our presumptuousness to assume he'd be willing to turn his countermeasures over for an unfair deal.
 
@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien

How much value do MS1-8 contribute to the Rift opening plan if one has Hazou's notes/partial progress on RS0?

I'm assuming they're still good for veterancy for the rest of the Rift Seal chain? Are there other benefits?

It's possible to just research RS0 and skip the rest of the MS chain, right? I assume Hazou's notes on RS0 are enough for Oro to figure it out.

Does Hazou think that on his roll for RS0 the MS veterancy played a big part in reducing it to something he could research?

Paperclipped said:
Hazō (Sealing): 50 + 24 (SSA) + 16 (full prep) + ? (Kagome) - 3 = 87 + ?
Hazō (Calligraphy): 42 + 16 (full prep) + 3 (Dampener) - 3 = 58

This is probably the most challenging seal that Hazō has ever worked on (at least, until he merges with Prime and remembers working on RRB later tonight). However, that doesn't say much. He could probably make faster progress on this seal without prep, if it weren't for the fact that the Calligraphy components are actually fairly tough.

Hazō thinks he's about a quarter of the way done
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Reminder, this was the roll. We got a 93 or 94 with Kagome's bonus.
 
Last edited:
Sir Stompy said:
You want to tell him it's Minato's original work? It certainly raises the stakes of the pitch. But I'm worried he'll act to claim the rest by aura blasting Hazou until we cave and spill the beans.

As for moving past an adversarial relationship, sure, I want to do that too. I just think he's not receptive enough to do true collaboration and that he won't view this as enough for reciprocity. Then he'd be affronted at our presumptuousness to assume he'd be willing to turn his countermeasures over for an unfair deal.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm confused.
  • It's true that Hazou's contributions constitute only a few months of work.
  • The factual value of what we'd be handing over is pretty huge nonetheless, since it contains Minato's work.
  • Orochimaru doesn't know how long Hazou's been working on it, since we've known about the rift for years and may have been working on it for years.
  • The only situation in which Orochimaru would consider the deal unfair is if we tell him that we've been working on it for a few months and don't tell him we have Minato's work. If we don't tell him anything regarding this, or only phrase it vaguely like "the data we have constitutes several years of work", I'm assuming he'd agree that's all pretty valuable (and that Sasori, who'd have access to this, would beat him unless we share our notes with him as well).
And if we avoid references to Minato, but do say that we've set up the Cannai dead man's switch, it seems safe to assume that he'd assume it's our original work and that he can't get at it except by bargaining with us.

Him aura-blasting Hazou until he spills all the information is a possibility, but I don't think it's that likely. I don't think he'd be particularly offended at the idea to help us kill the Akatsuki, even, given that he's likely also now burning with a renewed desire to get them all killed + has some respect for Hazou.

Incidentally, I think we can still do my plan, even with Naruto having ordered us to hand Oro the data. Just do it after we leave, on the Seventh Path. We can argue Naruto has no power to compel us anymore, since we're outside his reach. Naruto's only leverage would be cutting off the flow of chakra through Noburi, but we can argue he won't be willing to do it based on the same realpolitiks reasons he's not willing to pressure Orochimaru to share his countermeasures: he can't afford to.
 
Last edited:
Velorien said:
I'm afraid Naruto was explicit. You're to give Orochimaru everything useful for rift research other than Minato's original work (which he discouraged you from handing over, but didn't explicitly forbid).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Man fuck that Noise. Naruto literally can't order us to give up anything other than Minato's stuff. All the discoveries explicitly belong to the Goketsu.
eaglejarl said:
what we create using those materials belongs to the Gōketsu
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
IIRC, Asuma declared that the discoveries found from the decrypted Minato Seals were a Goketsu Clan secret.

How does this play with Naruto ordering Hazou to give them up?
 
Hmm, yeah, actually, the language there was pretty explicit:
eaglejarl said:
"Sir, I've returned the notes and I've given you the key information. That's more than we had going in and if you give it to someone else with the right skills then they can repeat our investigation. Without the notes we can't pursue this line of research any farther—well, we could, but it would be insane and we're not going to. This stuff is way too dangerous to do without the notes. The Fourth was a genius and neither Kagome-sensei nor I have the slightest hint of a belief that we're on his level. Good enough to follow where he leads? Yes, I think so. Good enough to carve the path ourselves? No. If you don't want the Gōketsu to benefit from the work we've done, I understand and will respect that position without complaint, although I think letting us continue our work would benefit Leaf in the long run. I'm simply saying that what we're doing is difficult, and dangerous, and the Gōketsu should benefit as well. The jinchūriki seal belongs to Leaf and the notes belong to Leaf. If we figure it out then we'll put the seal on anyone you like, we'll give the notes to anyone you think should have them, and we won't make copies without your express permission. Beyond that, what we create using those materials belongs to the Gōketsu. We're a new clan and we need our own advantages, same as any other clan does."

"One might suggest that three Summoning Scrolls should do as an advantage. Especially given that the Arachnid Scroll was obtained for you by the military efforts of Leaf." He tossed one hand. "Since it belongs to your married sister, I'll be generous and not count the Pangolin Scroll which is the key to Leaf's trade network and therefore provides tremendous economic leverage."

There had been a roiling, burning ball of terror chewing at Hazō's insides ever since he left the estate to come to this meeting. The ball slowed its roils by a smidgen; Asuma's voice was measured and chilly, but it was calm and there was no tension around his eyes. Hazō was probably going to walk out of the room on his own two feet and be allowed to go home instead of to a killbox.

Probably.

"True, one might suggest that, sir," Hazō agreed. "On the other hand, the Toad Scroll was our inheritance from Jiraiya, which we earned by contributing skywalkers to Leaf. The Dog Scroll was given to us by the Tower as thanks for when we donated our founder's sealing notes. Those documents were the most precious possession that we had, the biggest advantage we had compared to the other clans, and we willingly gave them up without being certain that we would get anything in return."

Asuma took another drag on the cigarette and blew a smoke ring. "And the Arachnid Scroll?"

"Given to us by the Hokage's decision and for sufficient reason. As to the Leaf military action involved, it was performed using tactics and capabilities supplied by the Gōketsu that allowed Leaf to eliminate an enemy stronghold with no losses. Well, no losses of people we like."

Asuma laughed. He tossed the butt of his cigarette into the bucket of sand next to his desk and rolled himself another one.

"Sir, the Gōketsu are loyal," Hazō said. "We aren't taking anything that's not ours. We're providing a warning that will give other Leaf sealmasters a better chance to survive reading those notes. If we manage to figure out the jinchūriki seal—which we may not, and it's years out even if we can—then we'll use it as the Tower directs. I'm simply saying that everything else belongs to us. If someone else wants to do the research and learn the same things we learn, more power to them. I simply don't think we should be obligated to hand it over ourselves."

Asuma twisted his cigarette shut, lit it, and then leaned back in his chair. He placed his feet up on his desk, legs crossed at the ankle, and studied Hazō calmly. He took a deep drag on the cigarette, burning up a quarter of it in one pull.

Hazō couldn't help swallowing nervously, but he rigidly suppressed all other reaction.

Asuma studied him.

Hazō's stomach roiled faster.

Asuma blew a long trail of smoke to the ceiling, then studied the tip of his cigarette thoughtfully.

"All right," he said at last.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We'd specifically negotiated for the Hokage's inability to order us to share this stuff. And the Tower doesn't have the decoded notes.

That puts my plan back on the table, I think.
 
Last edited:
Rewrote the contingency section. Will optimize the word count at some point in the next two days.
Noumero said:
[x] Action Plan: Play Nice, Snuncle Warcrimes
Word count: <600
  • Sanity-check with Mari/Kei.
  • Preparations:
    • Definition: "rift-related data" include notes, blanks, infused copies for MS1-8 and RS0-3, our rift-opening and rift-moving plans, ciphers for un-trapping Minato's seals, other related documents, plus the location of the bladehorrors rift (an expendable rift to experiment with).
    • Make copies of all rift-related data, but scrub all references to Minato and MS9+.
    • Gather all rift-related data (including copies and those in Kagome's possession). Give them to Cannai.
    • Tell Cannai to destroy them if Hazou asks to return them under duress.
  • Meet Orochimaru.
    • Cards on the table: Hazou's made significant progress on the rift project. He's willing to hand everything over...
      • ... if Orochimaru, symmetrically, hands over his countermeasures for the Akatsuki and any plans and prototypes related to developing additional ones.
    • Basic Prisoner's Dilemma:
      • They both prefer a world where the Akatsuki are dead and Leaf controls the rift.
      • Orochimaru doesn't want to give his countermeasures to someone who may waste them (deploy them against the Akatsuki, yet fail to kill them).
        • Hazou expects that Orochimaru thinks he'd waste them.
      • Hazou doesn't want Orochimaru stealing the rift before the Akatsuki are dead: that'd lead to them razing Leaf.
        • Hazou expects that Orochimaru may do that: since Orochimaru doesn't believe in Hazou's ability to kill them, it may be the right move, by Orochimaru's values, to go rogue and steal the rift before Hazou's incompetent attempt to kill them ruins everything.
      • Thus, Hazou prefers to complete the Akatsuki-killing half of the project before Orochimaru's rift-stealing half is ready, and vice versa.
      • Hazou proposes to move to the (cooperate, cooperate) quadrant. They both do their best to ensure the other's project succeeds, creating the world where the Akatsuki are dead and Leaf (including Hazou and Orochimaru) controls the rift.
    • Alone, Orochimaru is not going to complete the project before Sasori. Sasori has a head start and Hazou's notes and direct access to the rift. Orochimaru's a sealmaster leagues more experienced than Hazou and Sasori put together, but he's starting from scratch.
    • If Orochimaru agrees...
      • Either give him the Minato-scrubbed rift-related data right away, or agree to do a symmetrical exchange at a later date.
        • Orochimaru is impatient and may take offense at the idea he won't honor the deal. But Hazou's concerned his honor may go poof if the stakes are high enough: that he may renege on this deal if Hazou hands over his leverage immediately.
        • Defer to Kei/Mari here.
        • (Internal note: Scrubbing references to Minato isn't bad faith on Hazou's part. The hypothesized Minatosealing, and MS9+, are only tenuously related to the rift; MS1-8 cover everything relevant. Symmetrically, Hazou doesn't expect Orochimaru to hand over random cool combat seals if they're related to Akatsuki-killing only by being cool combat seals.)
      • Agree on a schedule to meet on the Seventh Path, to better coordinate and share progress.
      • Ask for a few barrels' worth of runic substrate, created in Arachnid.
    • Contingency: if Orochimaru suggests he'd pressure Naruto to order Hazou to share the data, or tries intimidating Hazou:
      • Hazou'd negotiated for the right not to share that information, even on Hokage's orders.
      • Rightfully, Hazou can make a symmetric argument: that Naruto should pressure Orochimaru to share.
      • Naruto's presumably unwilling due to realpolitiks. But symmetrically, he can't pressure Hazou too much (such as by cutting off Noburi's chakra supply), since he can't realpolitikally afford to sabotage our half of the project either.
      • If Naruto insists by claiming national-security concerns, you'd raise an objection with the Council, counter-arguing that Orochimaru is being disloyal by not sharing Akatsuki countermeasures (absolutely a national-security matter) and Naruto is failing his Hokage duties by being unwilling to pressure him.
      • A massive mess. No-one wants this.
      • Plus it's now physically impossible for anyone except a non-compelled Hazou to access the data, anyway.
  • Warn Naruto that you're concerned Orochimaru may trail you while you're leaving Leaf, or have his (hypothetical) missing-nin followers trail you.
    • Ask Naruto to covertly surveil him during Hazou's exit, and maybe shadow Hazou's exit with ANBU to ensure he's not followed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
_The_Bomb said:
He knows the seals, sure, but he cannot recreate the sealing notes from memory anymore than I could recreate the comments and documentation I made during a previous coding project.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm pretty skeptical that the notes are all that difficult to recreate if you know the seal.

I think it would take him a couple hours. They won't be identical but they'd be good enough for the TN reduction.
 
[x] Action Plan: Play Nice, Snuncle Warcrimes
I'm worried the tone might come out as belligerent rather than informative/analytical.

RandomOTP said:
For the record, if Hazou becomes a loot pinata for the Akatsuki, I'm voting in that Hazou kills himself.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm not sure if it's necessary. Could Hazou just seek refuge in the Out-mind and let it shield him from psychic damage?
 
Sir Stompy said:
Also @Noumero Kagome can do it too. He knows MS1-8
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't know, I wouldn't trust the incredibly complex seal blanks made by someone you're actively intimidating into scratching them for you. Deliberate "mistakes" during the drawing won't even be a matter of the sealmaster actively deciding to put them in; they'd just be the result of the sealmaster furiously/spitefully cutting corners when doing the drawing.

I grant that point regarding Hazou; the IN does make it more possible to intimidate him into doing the drawing and expect the results to be correct. But Hazou is also infamously crazy and inconsistently calculating, so he may actually deliberately put in errors, no matter how unwise that may be.

Eh, I guess I'll delete that line. The dead man's switch doesn't need hyping up.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top