Hugh_Donnetono Presents: SV Mafia All-Stars (Or: A Crisis On Infinite Sus)

Way I see it? Pick one.
Either Roles are exactly as remembered, only clarified in weird edge cases OR,
They're edited to fit each other and thus looking at the past is a guessing game for if it's actually useful for knowing what the rules are, making past experience worse then useless.

Haven't read the game that my roll is from yet. But the description of my power does imply that whilst it is the same power from that game, it interacts with what is out there with more variety
 
I think that it's more likely to provide some evening out as long as nobody provides more dteail than absolutely necessary, but there is no real way of guaranteeing that, and I could definitely see some information coming from it, so since I haven't played the game in years I do want feedback before I push for it.
I disagree that Town has less overall information in this setup particularly, mostly because we're in a high-probability power madness right now. You're correct that Scum will have information regarding who is on their team, and by extension who isn't, but right now I think Town actually has an advantage in that Scum doesn't know what's even in the game for them to play around yet. They may get some context clues given their own power structure, but right now it's better that Town maintains infosec so Scum is as blind to Town structure as possible, for as long as possible.
 
No.

Anyway, so just some quick musings:
  • Doubting Multiple scum-teams
  • Doubting Cult [outside maybe limited cult 3rd party]
  • Likely an SK/Arso/Werewolf/Hellbeast role in the third party column
  • Doubting The Thing
  • At max one returning role from all of Hugh's past run games.
  • High potential for roles to have abilities that actually do nothing in game, unlikely that roles have no way to interact with the game.
  • Scum Team likely have a small set of unifed powers on top of whatever they already have, this mostly because of the following point.
  • Alignment in past game does not equate to alignment in this game, however roles are often balanced around the faction they were designed in, inherent power discrepancies between games can be leveraged with how alignments were given to roles.
  • Power-madness is likely.
  • Basically I expect the basic structure to be fairly reasonable, and its the ingredients that are weird.
The tear I have in my soul between Scum-Locking Comi for not giving Cassandra reads and Town-Locking Comi for mind-melding every single point I was thinking about going into the start of this setup... :V
 
I think it should be fine to say that The Ultimate Class Rep is in the game. The rolecard from the previous game is as follows:

Article:
There are two kinds of Class Representatives in this world; those elected in popularity contests, and those who volunteer through peer pressure. You are the first kind. Everyone in your class loves you - you're charismatic, gorgeous, and impeccably dressed. No wonder you're so good at turning them into puppets. A killing game? Please. Everyone will fall under your command to live a peaceful school life - or be eliminated.

You are a member of the Student Council, and fill people with Despair. You win when only the Student Council remains. Please note that the Student Council, as a team, can only kill one person per Night phase.

Powers:
Communication: You can communicate with other Student Council members here.
Night Kill: You may eliminate a single player each Night phase. Your kill flavor is [Rejected].
Faction Leader: You are the one in charge of the Student Council, and as such, the ultimate choice on what member kills who is up to you. To use this power, send a PM saying "Kill [Player] with [Member]". If you die before your teammates, this power will be transferred to one of them.
Sheer Doki Doki Attack: You know just the right words to sway someone to your side. They might not know how much they love you yet, but they will soon enough. Once per Night phase, assuming you do not kill someone, you may attempt to recruit a player to the Student Council. To use this power, send a PM saying "Recruit [Player]".
Meticulous: You are a very...careful person. As such, you are always sure not to leave anything incriminating around. Being investigated will not implicate you in anything.
Honestly, I'm not actually sure that this information would implicate a Cult proper, if only because this would be super watered-down as a 3P role, when I'm sure Cult Leaders in other games would have something more interesting going on than just recruitment and investigatory immunity. I don't doubt that there may be recruitment mechanics in this game given its nature, but I think the conclusion you came to with this info is probably not the world we're in.

And while I do question why you have this information so soon in the first place, I don't think it's a point to push since I know there are roles that would outright afford it to you anyway, but for transparency's sake I'm pretty lukewarm about the situation overall.
 
I'll try to be careful to not say too much here, but...

Do not trust former role alignments. Do not trust former role powers to have passed through to this game true. I believe you when you say that role exists, but without further evidence I am not sold the culting ability exists in this game, or would work, or would work as a culting ability.
With the size of the game, I would be surprised if some kind of recruitment mechanic doesn't exist, but I'd be hard-pressed to believe it would cause any factional change. Too much fuckery and swing potential for a game that is potentially already fucky on its foundations imo.
 
Right, 21 players, game is ostensibly not bastard, though that's not guaranteed, and everyone has a role taken from a previous games.

While I'm in rusty brain mode, anyone wants to confess if they're a vanilla?
 
I disagree that Town has less overall information in this setup particularly, mostly because we're in a high-probability power madness right now. You're correct that Scum will have information regarding who is on their team, and by extension who isn't, but right now I think Town actually has an advantage in that Scum doesn't know what's even in the game for them to play around yet. They may get some context clues given their own power structure, but right now it's better that Town maintains infosec so Scum is as blind to Town structure as possible, for as long as possible.
I didn't think about it this way. I don't entirely agree- I think that there are certain roles that would logically either assume the existence of others or for the sake of some sense of balance likely have some kind of counter or counterpart on another team, but I think that broadly speaking you're definitely correct that playing things close to the chest on this front is probably more profitable at the moment.


I mean, Page 5 isn't deep for a Mafia game, but some of us have been making posts, and some of them definitely are taking stances that can be looked at. Obviously things are still deeply foggy but if you genuinely believe that there's a cult- like I said, your priority should be finding the cult leader asap. I find your rather apparent lukewarmness a litle surprising.

Give the game another read, if nothing else, just go with your gut. If there is a cult leader, who is it?
 
Yeah from what little I know of this forum, if Hugh or nic is there prepare for madness.
*Whistles innocently*
Hm. Trying to figure out how to approach this. My first thought is to check if anybody has any info they would be willing to give that would perhaps gievu s more insight as to what we're up against here- given that a decent amount of third parties (Serial killers, cults, etc etc) I strongly suspect thatwe'll need to get rid of them as well, and having additional information could be a way to perhaps box them in a bit when it comes to prospectiev fakeclaims later on and give us a better eye regarding the set-up. At the same time, it could be putting those players at a decent amount of risk to be killed off/converted/what-have-you by the third parties in question, without actually ending up providing too much benefit to us. Any thoughts on that?
There's probably a different third party faction for each color in Third Party. That seems likely.
Thought: those colours genuinely could be references to the games they hail from.
Additionally? I'm pretty sure trying to expect anything below 'this might be madness but it's funny!' in the roles is likely.
I don't think this would be the case, mainly because I don't believe all those colors have been used.

I do have one theory for a potential common theme among the scum, but it's far too early to share that.

Doubting Cult [outside maybe limited cult 3rd party]
But have you considered tri-cult? :V
Power-madness is likely.
Agreed. This is a Hugh game and he's already done the surprise vanillas joke. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any Vanillas at all tbh.
I have a gun and I will be using it on fucking god don't even try me.
Bet
No. Some of them are colors of third parties in the game, but not all. While it is possible to be 12 3P's, it's not likely. Depending on whether the cult is also the Scum, I'd say 4-7 third parties are in the game.

Yes. Although it's less "believe" and more "know" that there is a cult.
Noted.
I think it should be fine to say that The Ultimate Class Rep is in the game. The rolecard from the previous game is as follows:

Article:
There are two kinds of Class Representatives in this world; those elected in popularity contests, and those who volunteer through peer pressure. You are the first kind. Everyone in your class loves you - you're charismatic, gorgeous, and impeccably dressed. No wonder you're so good at turning them into puppets. A killing game? Please. Everyone will fall under your command to live a peaceful school life - or be eliminated.

You are a member of the Student Council, and fill people with Despair. You win when only the Student Council remains. Please note that the Student Council, as a team, can only kill one person per Night phase.

Powers:
Communication: You can communicate with other Student Council members here.
Night Kill: You may eliminate a single player each Night phase. Your kill flavor is [Rejected].
Faction Leader: You are the one in charge of the Student Council, and as such, the ultimate choice on what member kills who is up to you. To use this power, send a PM saying "Kill [Player] with [Member]". If you die before your teammates, this power will be transferred to one of them.
Sheer Doki Doki Attack: You know just the right words to sway someone to your side. They might not know how much they love you yet, but they will soon enough. Once per Night phase, assuming you do not kill someone, you may attempt to recruit a player to the Student Council. To use this power, send a PM saying "Recruit [Player]".
Meticulous: You are a very...careful person. As such, you are always sure not to leave anything incriminating around. Being investigated will not implicate you in anything.
* frowns*
I put this on the list as those that I would hope wouldn't be ported straight over.

I don't trust you though.

Alright, all caught up. I'm Commander Rhodes and this is my favorite vote in the thread.
[X] Vote A Bunch Of Atoms
 
Good morning.

It's the beginning of the game and we have a massive grouping, or at least this is the biggest I've played in yet, so I'm assuming that much of what what we speculate on here in the beginning isn't going to be based on heavy evidence. I do think sharing methodologies for sussing out mafia and third parties could be useful here, though, with vote considerations occurring later in the day.
 
My thinking there is that either Atoms is lying about it existing, is in contact with the player who has the role/is that role, or is executioner. If Atoms is Town and in contact with the Ultimate Class President then they should know it isn't going to work like it did originally and so shouldn't be stating that it's a cult instead of guessing masonizer, if they are the role then they're basically claiming Cultafia and have to go, and if they're an executioner then they're non-Town and the Ultimate Class President is probably Town.

I'm Commander Rhodes and this is my favorite hub of the citadel.
 
Since we're discussing cults, it might be informative for some of us to be told what a cult is and how it's different from mafia in this game?
A cult is a faction that usually starts with one Leader and a couple (1-2 would be typical) members. They may have additional powers, but their primary ability is to "recruit" one player every night, who unless they are protected in some way becomes a cult member and their win condition is changed to the cult winning. The cult wins, similar to a mafia-like role, when they have a plurality or majority of the remaining players convreted.

This is massively annoying to deal with, because cult leaders often don't really have particularly clear tells from the beginning, it means that you fundamentally can't trust that even if somebody is claiming honestly that they'll still be the same alignment the next day, and essentially causes massive brain drain as all the players who either are onto the cult leader or are generally skilled get converted; cult games are either swift victories by the cult or in the end turn into apathy because it's obvious the cult is about to win; I used to like them but it makes them signficiantly unfun.

Breaking this down honestly makes me skeptical that a cult is in the game as well to be honest; assuming role-madness, since the game is already messy as it is to manage and structure without them. Cult games can be role-heavy, but they certainly don't tend to be what appears to be a several faction mess of a game.

There's probably a different third party faction for each color in Third Party. That seems likely.
I'm not sure how serious you're bieng given how people are talking up hugh games tbh, but it's definitely... possible. It'll probably be clearer in a couple days anyway, no point worrying about it right now.

Also, Nictis, I overall get your conclusion, but I'm missing a couple steps in where we get from post one to your conclusions in post 2. Can you elaborate on that in any way?
 
I'll only accept that a cult exists if there are three of them and they all hate each other tbh

I didn't think about it this way. I don't entirely agree- I think that there are certain roles that would logically either assume the existence of others or for the sake of some sense of balance likely have some kind of counter or counterpart on another team, but I think that broadly speaking you're definitely correct that playing things close to the chest on this front is probably more profitable at the moment.
In any other setup, I would agree with you fully, but I think it's just way too difficult for scum to try to predict possible powers, given a high volume of crazier-than-standard powers are a lot more feasible than they would be normally.
 
Doubting The Thing
High potential for roles to have abilities that actually do nothing in game, unlikely that roles have no way to interact with the game.
Regarding these two. I wasn't in the game my role came from, but I'm 100% sure from the description that it's missing some abilities, so 2 is confirmed.
I wouldn't count Thing out, either, but it's probably not worth speculating on now that I'm going back over it. If it comes up, it comes up.
I have a gun and I will be using it on fucking god don't even try me.
please don't shoot me.
I think it should be fine to say that The Ultimate Class Rep is in the game. The rolecard from the previous game is as follows:

Article:
There are two kinds of Class Representatives in this world; those elected in popularity contests, and those who volunteer through peer pressure. You are the first kind. Everyone in your class loves you - you're charismatic, gorgeous, and impeccably dressed. No wonder you're so good at turning them into puppets. A killing game? Please. Everyone will fall under your command to live a peaceful school life - or be eliminated.

You are a member of the Student Council, and fill people with Despair. You win when only the Student Council remains. Please note that the Student Council, as a team, can only kill one person per Night phase.

Powers:
Communication: You can communicate with other Student Council members here.
Night Kill: You may eliminate a single player each Night phase. Your kill flavor is [Rejected].
Faction Leader: You are the one in charge of the Student Council, and as such, the ultimate choice on what member kills who is up to you. To use this power, send a PM saying "Kill [Player] with [Member]". If you die before your teammates, this power will be transferred to one of them.
Sheer Doki Doki Attack: You know just the right words to sway someone to your side. They might not know how much they love you yet, but they will soon enough. Once per Night phase, assuming you do not kill someone, you may attempt to recruit a player to the Student Council. To use this power, send a PM saying "Recruit [Player]".
Meticulous: You are a very...careful person. As such, you are always sure not to leave anything incriminating around. Being investigated will not implicate you in anything.
For future reference: That is just a really odd thing to put as a reason you know cult is in the game?
I can't think of many scenarios atm where it would've been better to say that than not. It kinda draws the mind into questioning how you know X role is in the game, doesn't prove the role is actually cult, etc.
Though fwiw, I do think that if you're telling the truth about that role being in, it's probably cult. Just. Odd to use as proof.
 
mostly because we're in a high-probability power madness right now.
I'd place safe odds against that, because...
Right, 21 players, game is ostensibly not bastard, though that's not guaranteed, and everyone has a role taken from a previous games.

While I'm in rusty brain mode, anyone wants to confess if they're a vanilla?
Me! I joined this game with a slight expectation of being able to have some fun in the evenings, or at the very least try to investigate this white void during the day, but my vanilla townie's character bio explicitly writes those options out for me :(
 
Also, Nictis, I overall get your conclusion, but I'm missing a couple steps in where we get from post one to your conclusions in post 2. Can you elaborate on that in any way?
That was my elaboration though. We're Day 1 and Atoms is hard confirming the existence of a specific role, which they also are hard believing to be a cult. The only way they would know that it exists at this point is if they either have the role that they are claiming is a cult role, they are in communication with someone who has claimed the role and so are either a cultist or should know that it is most likely not a cult role in this game, or their role informs them as to the existence of the role which would be either an executioner style trying to get it killed or someone that just knows what all the roles in the game are which is unbelievable on the basis of "I don't recognize that role from past games" and "Hugh should really know better than to give the possibility for everyone to learn what all the roles are in this role madness game."

Furthermore, I'm Commander Rhodes and this is the best thread in the forums.
 
…I'm tempted to vote Atom for the Cultist fears.
…It won't quite dispel his fears, but it'd be a small chance- my understanding is that cult factions in Mafia are quite rare…
Wiadi honestly has some suspicion about that 'warning shot' but I suppose I can somewhat see what he's coming from. Admittedly I was thinking that the binary would be interesting as a converse point for shaking things up, as opposed to hinting at roles but…

*frowns*
Another reason for that bad post was finding the discussion around it complicated enough to be confusing to think around…
 
That was my elaboration though. We're Day 1 and Atoms is hard confirming the existence of a specific role, which they also are hard believing to be a cult. The only way they would know that it exists at this point is if they either have the role that they are claiming is a cult role, they are in communication with someone who has claimed the role and so are either a cultist or should know that it is most likely not a cult role in this game, or their role informs them as to the existence of the role which would be either an executioner style trying to get it killed or someone that just knows what all the roles in the game are which is unbelievable on the basis of "I don't recognize that role from past games" and "Hugh should really know better than to give the possibility for everyone to learn what all the roles are in this role madness game."

Alright, that explanation is fine. I see how you could feel that you explained that via implication, but I admit that I have some bad memories of how you played in the past and I'd really rather there being a celar, explicit breakdown of your thoughts in the thread rather than fill in the dots myself; especially if we find a stance reasonsable I tend to find that we'll assume that the logic of the other party's making the argument is reasonable too, even if they could be doing it for far worse, or manufactured reasons, if that makes sense.

I don't want to make my stance on the current user of the moment clear until they've answered my question; if they haven't my tonight I'll go back through and give my broad thoughts.
 
With the size of the game, I would be surprised if some kind of recruitment mechanic doesn't exist, but I'd be hard-pressed to believe it would cause any factional change. Too much fuckery and swing potential for a game that is potentially already fucky on its foundations imo.
That matches my own thoughts on this. We've almost certainly got at least one neighborizer of some kind running around. But a cult feels unlikely at the present.

Also,

@A Bunch Of Atoms: Why did you immediately assume that that role has to be a cult and isn't just part of the (regular) scum team again? Because you spoke as if it was a certain thing that there was a cult on top of the scum team.

[x] vote A Bunch Of Atoms
 
Why did you immediately assume that that role has to be a cult and isn't just part of the (regular) scum team again? Because you spoke as if it was a certain thing that there was a cult on top of the scum team.

[] vote A Bunch Of Atoms

Making this post as partially a reminder to get back to why I don't like this vote in particular at all when I break down how I feel about Atoms.
 
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