I don't know why you're asking me, I'm pretty sure I've said I'm not a fan of it but I've got nothing better. I'm not pushing for the speech. Uh, but like, I don't expect him to stay in Norway if we offer him to do so, and I'd rather not take him by force.
Uh, because you are voting for it and your reasons seem to contradict the speech, imho.

We don't need to keep him we can genuinely offer.
It avoids the issues of the long speech and it means either he backs down once or he limits his growths.

seekingflame brought up on Discord the idea of asking him not to fight Steinarr until he can beat Halla in a fight. Which seems like a good call all around...he has no chance if he can't, and it provides us with the ability to generally shut things down. That couldn't be the only thig said, but maybe as an addition to KreenWarrior or Alectai's plans.
Are we seriously going to try to help Gabriel kill our father?
 
Took the suggestion of having Halla act as gatekeeper and bolted it at the end of my word vomit. Here's hoping IF can make something compelling out of it!

That gives us a shot at running the clock and gives us a fire to keep growing without requiring Gabriel to stop. It's the best compromise I can come up with.
 
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Uh, because you are voting for it and your reasons seem to contradict the speech, imho.

We don't need to keep him we can genuinely offer.
It avoids the issues of the long speech and it means either he backs down once or he limits his growths.

How would offering for him to stay in Norway be of any help? Well, sure, it would be better than him being in Christian lands but like... why would he accept it? He has no reason to do so, and he's made it pretty clear he hates the place.

I mean, I will admit it really rubs me the wrong way to just stand aside and do nothing if he tries to kill our dad, since - again - we're the reason he went on the raid in the first place, but given that Alectai's having us fight us first to get to Steinarr, I don't really have much of an issue with the speech. We're not revealing that much... if anything.
 
[X] Gatekeeper of our family.
-[X] First off, be understanding about his grief of his master and the need to try an avenge him. Even if it is against our father, However...
-[X] Ask Gabriel to swear an oath that whenever he feel ready to kill Steinerr, he must first come and challenge Halla and defeat her in a duel.
-[X] Rationalize it to him that if can't defeat Halla he won't stand a chance against Steinerr, and he owe it to her at least the chance to protect her family from one she sees as a companion. Try to use his friendship with us to make him emphasize with our desire to protect our family. The same as his desire to avenge his master.
-[X] Try to push him toward spending his time living up to the better aspects of his knights oaths, rather then just training in a monastery, hoping time and chivalrous living might help push him away from his current focus on vengeance. And also speak of all the good he might achieve that might never happen for the chance the kill a man that for all intend and purposes is now retiring to raise his grandchildren.
-[X] To help convince him to agree to a duel with us, and whatever he agree or not, remind him that doing anything other then an arranged duel with Steinerr will cause a family feud, and even that might cause it, and whatever we are willing to forgive him the death of our father, our brothers will not, and should they seek to continue the cycle of vengeance and fall, we will be answer that in blood, even with our friendship with Gabriel. And beside if he will lead a squad of knights to attack a pillar of our community, we will be forced to act as part of our oaths to our Jarl.
-[X] If needs must, try and use the favor he owes us to make him swear that oath.

Honestly, screw being understanding about Steinerr possibly dying to him, however unlikely it is, I want to shove Halla front and center to defend her family form even a friend, and I believe this give us the best chance he will agree on.

Also, I'm kinda hoping that between Steinerr old age and The viking vs Knights progression speed, Steinerr will be long dead by the time it matters. I also threw in an attempt to turn Gabriel to another path of doing good to let him blew his chivalrous steam in another direction them our family.

Another important thing is it prevent Gabriel from assembling a hit squad to hit Steinerr with, which is kind of the biggest threat he can pose for Stein remaining lifespan.
 
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The idea here is to make sure we always win (which is hopefully doable). Which prevents him from ever even trying to kill Steinarr...that's not actually helping him succeed, it's helping him not die futilely. Very different.
Helping him not die futilely is helping him kill our father.

How would offering for him to stay in Norway be of any help? Well, sure, it would be better than him being in Christian lands but like... why would he accept it? He has no reason to do so, and he's made it pretty clear he hates the place.
It either hinders him (if he accepts for some reason) or it does nothing while not implying that we are ok with him trying it or giving up anything.
Is it perfect or a great effective idea? Nah.
But it is less harmful.
I mean, I will admit it really rubs me the wrong way to just stand aside and do nothing if he tries to kill our dad, since - again - we're the reason he went on the raid in the first place, but given that Alectai's having us fight us first to get to Steinarr, I don't really have much of an issue with the speech. We're not revealing that much... if anything.
By acting as an intermediary we are increasing his chances to succeed.
His chances are still bad unless he finds some underhanded way / gets knights to come raid with him, but the chances are higher than if we don't do that.

[X] "Want a place on my ship on the way back home so you can challenge father to a duel?"
New approach: direct.
[X] Plan: Direct warning
-[X] "Then you are my enemy. Fare well. If we meet when you try, that could end with one of us killing the other."

Honestly, screw being understanding about Steinerr possibly dying to him, however unlikely it is, I want to shove Halla front and center to defend her family form even a friend, and I believe this give us the best chance he will agree on.
Are you willing to try to kill Gabriel in those arranged duels?
Like seriously try to end his life?
Because if not we are making Halla a stepping stone on Gabriels path to kill Steinarr.
A barrier that he has arbitrarily many attempts to cross.
We'd be the tutorial gate.
 
You know I can't say I'm surprised at Gabriel wanting to kill Steinar. He did kill Gabriel's master and made him a slave/thrall after all.

To be fair, him becoming a thrall was due to his Master's own words, not Steinarr's. But Gabriel likely doesn't care, yeah.

By acting as an intermediary we are increasing his chances to succeed.



How does fighting him increase his chances of success? He'd be getting stronger without us, and it's not like us beating him would enhance that. We're not sparring him, he wouldn't get training dice or anything of the sort, nor do we fight like Steinarr, so he wouldn't even be getting experience on how to fight him.
 
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Are you willing to try to kill Gabriel in those arranged duels?
Like seriously try to end his life?
Because if not we are making Halla a stepping stone on Gabriels path to kill Steinarr.
A barrier that he has arbitrarily many attempts to cross.
We'd be the tutorial gate.
We could add a clause of fuck off and don't challenge me again for X years, which is honestly what I envision happen anyway, if Halla beat him he will likely fuck off to do some quests in the other edge of the world until he is strong enough, and his experience against Halla, while useful is not really that impactful compared to everything else.

This is not dark souls where he can grind Halla for however many time till he git gud, Halla isn't going to let that shenanigans pass off, and we honestly don't need to buy a lot of years.
 
The only argument I'd see holding water for us being a gatekeeper ending up helping Gabriel is the story trope of the protagonist going through a training arc to overcome a seemingly insurmountable foe. The hitch in that logic is the Nornir have no command over Gabriel so they aren't going to help him live up to this trope.
 
This is not dark souls where he can grind Halla for however many time till he git gud, Halla isn't going to let that shenanigans pass off, and we honestly don't need to buy a lot of years.
He doesn't need to grind Halla for experience.
See argument below (ditto @DeadmanwalkingXI):

How does fighting him increase his chances of success? He'd be getting stronger without us, and it's not like us beating him would enhance that. We're not sparring him, he wouldn't get training dice or anything of the sort, nor do we fight like Steinarr, so he wouldn't even be getting experience on how to fight him.
It reduces the chance of trying to kill Steinarr killing Gabriel.
Imagine for example he'd need 20 years of training to exploit Steinarrs style to have a not "practically zero" chance of winning.
If he tries at 5 years of training, he'd die and never get to 20 years of training. If he looses to Halla first he doesn't die and can go back to training.
 
It reduces the chance of trying to kill Steinarr killing Gabriel.
Imagine for example he'd need 20 years of training to exploit Steinarrs style to have a not "practically zero" chance of winning.
If he tries at 5 years of training, he'd die and never get to 20 years of training. If he looses to Halla first he doesn't die and can go back to training.
We're not wanting Gabriel to die. Ideally we'd end this with neither of them dead.
 
Well we also want to keep our foolish friend alive, which makes this a narrow road to go, so yes, we might accept a little risk to Steinerr, but it's one I am willing to live with. It also prevent Gabriel from trying more drastic things to kill Steinerr, and will likely us a tripwire to know when shit is about to go down and do something about it. Also give us more chances to change his mind in this regard, if he has to go through us first.

It's hard choice because we also want Gabriel alive, else we would have just declared him an enemy of our family. We only need to delay the duel, Steinerr will die on his own time.
We're not wanting Gabriel to die. Ideally we'd end this with neither of them dead.
Funny thing, the express purpose of this plan is that we do want one of them dead. it's kind of ironic that while the plan on the surface seems to be to help save our dad, the end state is with him dead.
 
Oh, of course I know, it's just that if you squint a little and tilt your head. That is the end state of this plan.

Also even if it's not old age, as long as the killer is not Gabriel then it much better. Let us worry on our father many possibly causes of death later, this plan focus on Gabriel.
 
Under norse rules of honor, what is the usual action if the person you're grudging with dies of something else before you've had enough revenge? Do you transfer the grudge to their descendants?
 
I kind of don't want to give a massive speech in response to something like this, or put in loads of stuff to attempt to hedge against contingencies. It's not that kind of thing.

Also, this is a Xianxia setting, so there's at least a reasonable chance that if Gabriel trains obsessively, finds some secret lost style or weapon, then he could defeat an elderly Steinarr. Willpower is power in a world where ideas can be made manifest if you believe in them hard enough. Look at how he hulked out when fighting us, and imagine taking that and spending twenty years forging it into a super saiyan transformation.

Also telling him "you're going to die if you try" just fundamentally misunderstands the mindset he's coming from here. Gabriel has been trained how to die for most of his life. An honourable death in the fulfilment of duty is not a bad thing from his point of view.

This is about avenging the death of his knight, and we can't attempt to rationalise away what is obviously a very real trauma for Gabriel that he has carried for years now.
 
What is there left? the speech is an appeal to emotion and the Gatekeep an attempt to give an iron in this fire. If IF decide to sum up either of them with a simpler and more dramatic declaration, then that works too as long as Gabriel understand the nuances I tried to put in, But the only simple statement is either declare him an enemy to us or tacitly give him permission to kill Steinerr.
 
This is about avenging the death of his knight, and we can't attempt to rationalise away what is obviously a very real trauma for Gabriel that he has carried for years now.

That's not really what Alectai's plan does, I don't feel. It notes the fundamental realities and suggests a way forward that doesn't alienate us if he wishes to persist even in the face of them. That seems reasonable to me.
 
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