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Construct buildings out of stone, primarily Great-Seal-style feldspar
  • Avoid unaltered MEW granite or anything else ugly

Yes! I vehemently disagree with this. If Orochimaru ever sees the estate looking like the GS he's gonna freak out and start demanding answers that we can't give w/o spilling the beans on PS and ES. Let's not.

Construct buildings out of stone, primarily Great-Seal-style feldspar
  • Avoid unaltered MEW granite or anything else ugly
  • Send a sample to Orochimaru. Inform him that while we succeeded at reproduceing the great seal material, it turns out to be ordinary rock. whatever makes it infuseable has nothing to do with the material, but we'll keep trying.
 
It is trading with a deity. There are pros and cons to it. It also doesn't mean agreeing with Jashin on anything, let alone everything. Nor does it mean accepting Jashin or his clergy as our captain the way we accepted Asuma.
ASUMA: Are you a Jashinist, Hazo?
HAZO: No, of course not. My regular human sacrifices in his name are for purely material gain.
ASUMA:
HAZO:
ASUMA:
HAZO: ....I'll wait in my killbox.


In a vacuum, I think dealing with Jashin the way we deal with Oro is rational (as an evil monster we can potentially extract useful work from). I just really don't think Hazo is capable of keeping that fact a secret longterm or that he can convince others that he's right to do so.
 
She had 30 levels in Phoenix Rebirth and that's pretty much it. 232.5 XP due to half costing. That's like, 4 levels of Athletics. Not bad or anything but nothing game changing. PR gave her better chances FMPOV especially fighting lightning/fire ninjutsu users, which is seemingly what got her.
Its not about the XP - its about using the bad jutsu at all, because using it in place of better techniques / options was an actively detrimential alternative. The XP cost wasn't big yes, although it wasn't really marginal either, a few levels of ex. Athletics are quite impactful.

Phoenix Rebirth at that level was effectively a worse and costlier Substitution. Even levelled up high it would have been a mediocre situational replacement at best and a Supplemental is a Supplemental, you only get two a Round and Action Economy matters.

The more major part of it is Flame Aura though. While it is a great booster jutsu, it is also a frankly terrible opening if you can't use it as prep before combat, especially if you are not going first and are up against an ambush of multiple ninja - because if you open with it, you are giving them all 2 Full Rounds (!!) to try and kill you before you can so much as lift a finger in your defense, and it doesn't even boost your survivability! And clearly she used it because there's no reason why she'd have died a charred corpse from its backlash otherwise. Contrast this with making several Shadow Clones and Supplemental retreating, evening out the action economy to let you get away safely - they can fight, tie up and delay enemies to buy time, force them to spend their actions, Substitute with you to get you out of trouble etc.
 
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Canzon's Lament:

An unearthly howl erupts from the seal when activated, telling a story of betrayal.
On hearing Canzon's Lament and at the start of each round after, defenders roll against a TN(sealing at infusion) resolve check. On failure, attacking rolls made after hearing Canzon's Lament suffer a [sealing AB] malus to all attack rolls, as Canzon pleads for another way.
 
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ASUMA: Are you a Jashinist, Hazo?
HAZO: No, of course not. My regular human sacrifices in his name are for purely material gain.
ASUMA:
HAZO:
ASUMA:
HAZO: ....I'll wait in my killbox.


In a vacuum, I think dealing with Jashin the way we deal with Oro is rational (as an evil monster we can potentially extract useful work from). I just really don't think Hazo is capable of keeping that fact a secret longterm or that he can convince others that he's right to do so.
That depends very much on what dedicating kills to Jashin requires. According to Hidan no special rituals of any kind are involved. If it doesn't even need an exclamation then we can dedicate literally every legal kill to Jashin. Silently.

If this then has tangible results then I don't see why anyone who is neither religious nor especially worried about extraplanar entities would take issue. To be fair, the only persons in Leaf that I know this applies to is Mari and Ami. Kei and Shikamaru are anti-entity appeasement and everyone else we know and trust are either devout Will-of-Fireists, or already genuine Jashinists, or Orochimaru. Noburi could have been someone to also talk to about this if the whole Yuno thing hadn't both happened and been handled by us so terribly.

So Mari. She already thinks that killing for profit makes sense. I mean, every ninja thinks that, but most in Leaf are hypocritical about it. If silently dedicating kills to Jashin has any tangible benefits and also has only manageable drawbacks then she might be genuinely interested in partaking and at the very least won't rat us out to anyone when we talk to her about it after gathering some data on our own (by dedicating kills to Jashin).

As for going on bandit killing missions without dedicating them to Jashin, that seems like a waste of life with little point to it. If I understood correctly the point of that is supposedly to appease Hidan. The issue there is that in that case we either can just lie about it and make up murders we didn't actually commit, or lying is too risky in which case we need to be able to honestly say that we killed in Jashin's name (and didn't literally deliberately avoid doing so even as we killed anyway due to a mix of cowardice and genuine anti-Jashinist sentiment). And that we got whatever boons he expects us to get from that. Because how the hell would we fake that?
 
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Contrast this with making several Shadow Clones and Supplemental retreating, evening out the action economy to let you get away safely - they can fight, tie up and delay enemies to buy time, force them to spend their actions, Substitute with you to get you out of trouble etc
Nah dude, all they need is one (1) decent AoE justu and you and all your clones are toast. You spent all your chakra on SC so you can't even Substitute.

Imagine you have 300 chakra, as Akane did. If you cast SC to make 4 clones (the smallest number I would call "several" instead of "a few") you have (300-250)/4 = 13 CP, Sub costs 14.
 
That depends very much on what dedicating kills to Jashin requires. According to Hidan no special rituals of any kind are involved. If it doesn't even need an exclamation then we can dedicate literally every legal kill to Jashin. Silently.

If this then has tangible results then I don't see why anyone who is neither religious nor especially worried about extraplanar entities would take issue. To be fair, the only persons in Leaf that I know this applies to is Mari and Ami. Kei and Shikamaru are anti-entity appeasement and everyone else we know and trust are either devout Will-of-Fireists, or already genuine Jashinists, or Orochimaru. Noburi could have been someone to also talk to about this if the whole Yuno thing hadn't both happened and been handled by us so terribly.

So Mari. She already thinks that killing for profit makes sense. I mean, every ninja thinks that, but most in Leaf are hypocritical about it. If silently dedicating kills to Jashin has any tangible benefits and also has only manageable drawbacks then she might be genuinely interested in partaking and at the very least won't rat us out to anyone when we talk to her about it after gathering some data on our own (by dedicating kills to Jashin).

As for going on bandit killing missions without dedicating them to Jashin, that seems like a waste of life with little point to it. If I understood correctly the point of that is supposedly to appease Hidan. The issue there is that in that case we either can just lie about it and make up murders we didn't actually commit, or lying is too risky in which case we need to be able to honestly say that we killed in Jashin's name (and didn't literally deliberately avoid doing so even as we killed anyway due to a mix of cowardice and genuine anti-Jashinist sentiment). And that we got whatever boons he expects us to get from that. Because how the hell would we fake that?
FMPOV Hidan is not a reliable source with regards to Jashin. I'm not fully convinced Hazou and Hidan are favored by the same god even, though Hidan does seem like he has some weird Jashin-sight thing to the point he could detect Yuno's fervor through talking to Noburi alone. I think Hazou was not lying when he said he was favored over Hidan at Bakuchioka because at least in this case, Hazou's doing what Jashin/whoever is wanting him to do. Though given that Hidan thinks lives taken needs to be more personal, Hazou may earn more favor by saving lives more personally as well. (Again, not convinced Hidan is right about the need for it to be personal. He may just be bloodthirsty and projecting.)
 
Nah dude, all they need is one (1) decent AoE justu and you and all your clones are toast. You spent all your chakra on SC so you can't even Substitute.

Imagine you have 300 chakra, as Akane did. If you cast SC to make 4 clones (the smallest number I would call "several" instead of "a few") you have (300-250)/4 = 13 CP, Sub costs 14.
Also like, the whole "what if you take a consequence before getting FA off" scenario is magnitudes worse if you're using SC instead and all of them have consequences (or worse, pop instantly from copying your damage.)
 
Also like, the whole "what if you take a consequence before getting FA off" scenario is magnitudes worse if you're using SC instead and all of them have consequences (or worse, pop instantly from copying your damage.)
Oh yeahhhh good point there. It's just a bad strategy all around.

SC is good to ambush with (goated with Nobs) but it really ain't shit when you're attacked and on the back foot.

Need escape jutsu for that.
 
Yes! I vehemently disagree with this. If Orochimaru ever sees the estate looking like the GS he's gonna freak out and start demanding answers that we can't give w/o spilling the beans on PS and ES. Let's not.
I agree with the following take by Left-Hand Mutant:
Construct buildings out of stone, primarily Great-Seal-style feldspar
  • Avoid unaltered MEW granite or anything else ugly
  • Send a sample to Orochimaru. Inform him that while we succeeded at reproduceing the great seal material, it turns out to be ordinary rock. whatever makes it infuseable has nothing to do with the material, but we'll keep trying.
While it's important that we conceal our true progress in Primordial Sealing, the existence of the feldspar is not, in and of itself, noteworthy progress towards unlocking it. If we appear to be openly sharing this information with him, then that conveys the impression that we are honestly collaborating and not concealing other progress. Thus we get to openly use the material and, if anything, improve our OPSEC.

(We should make a few tonnes of the feldspar first and send that along with the letter in storage seals. The first thing Orochimaru is likely to do once he hears this is demand more samples from us, and we'd rather avoid a face-to-face conversation that risks him asking if we've learned anything else or somesuch, so proactively providing a sufficient quantity of the material is to our advantage)
Asuma
  • Optimize with Mari+Kei+Snowflake
  • We think we can do 3D sealing if we have infusable material
  • We should eventually be able to make stone infusable with better earthshaping
  • Chakra crystals from the cave in Honey are infusable
    • Might be worth assigning a mission to grab some
    • The cave-organism is a valuable source of data, we'd prefer it not be destroyed entirely
  • The Swamp of Death is also a highly chakra-rich environment, maybe something similar could be found there
    • Would you consider authorizing a mission?
  • We'll report whatever subset of this you want to Orochimaru
    • Please don't put us in a position where Orochimaru is going to coerce us to work for him
    • 3D sealing could be an improved version of normal sealing, or it could be a complete game-changer. Maybe give us a couple of months to feel out the possibilities before deciding if you want him to have the power-up?
Personally, I don't think that asking him to send a mission to Honey should be our first resort here. I'd mention it as an option, but what I really want to ask Asuma here is that he uses his TH prowess to try and recreate the honey crystal himself. It's an effect we know Earthshaping to be capable of, and Cannai told us that anything ES can do could be done by a more focused jutsu. This would give us a renewable supply of the crystal, which is what we truly need here.

It's only failing that that more cave samples would be useful. A competent strike team that finds the cave again and harvests all the crystal from it would certainly bring back quite a haul, but if this isn't a research trip with Hazou trying to use sealing to observe and recreate the growth process, it'll only be a one-time finite infusion of crystal. And given the time such a mission would take from travel time alone, I'm inclined to think that the TH route might be the faster of the two as well as the one with the better outcome if successful.

I'd also rephrase the Orochimaru situation, starting with our cause for concern and drawing our tentative conclusions afterwards. I'd put it something like this:
  • Now that we're approaching the PS unlock, we'd like to keep the secret from Orochimaru long enough to start exploring the field first.
    • We don't know how powerful 3D Sealing is, but if it's too powerful it could make Orochimaru an existential threat in his own right. We want to make sure that's not true before we share our findings with him.
    • In the end, it's your call.
Still deferential to Asuma's authority, but puts our main concern front and center and better explains why we think a choice like this is necessary.
 
While it's important that we conceal our true progress in Primordial Sealing, the existence of the feldspar is not, in and of itself, noteworthy progress towards unlocking it. If we appear to be openly sharing this information with him, then that conveys the impression that we are honestly collaborating and not concealing other progress. Thus we get to openly use the material and, if anything, improve our OPSEC.

(We should make a few tonnes of the feldspar first and send that along with the letter in storage seals. The first thing Orochimaru is likely to do once he hears this is demand more samples from us, and we'd rather avoid a face-to-face conversation that risks him asking if we've learned anything else or somesuch, so proactively providing a sufficient quantity of the material is to our advantage)

I agree with this.
 
FMPOV Hidan is not a reliable source with regards to Jashin. I'm not fully convinced Hazou and Hidan are favored by the same god even, though Hidan does seem like he has some weird Jashin-sight thing to the point he could detect Yuno's fervor through talking to Noburi alone. I think Hazou was not lying when he said he was favored over Hidan at Bakuchioka because at least in this case, Hazou's doing what Jashin/whoever is wanting him to do. Though given that Hidan thinks lives taken needs to be more personal, Hazou may earn more favor by saving lives more personally as well. (Again, not convinced Hidan is right about the need for it to be personal. He may just be bloodthirsty and projecting.)
Hidan's whole argument (that seems to have convinced Yuno) is that Jashin is better than other deities because he delivers tangible results. Which means that at the very least it should be easily testable whether he is right or wrong. Like, say, for instance, by dedicating kills to Jashin during bandit extermination missions.

I honestly see no drawback other than that Jashin might get access to Hazō's mind in some undesirable way. But if that's the fear then we can forget fooling Hidan any longer and bandit extermination missions won't do us much good either.

@eaglejarl Was there anything at all that Hidan considered to be something we should be doing to dedicate kills to Jashin back when he oversaw us murdering some bandits? Even something as simple as a certain mindset or silent prayer or just intent for dedications to be received.

Edit:

For now:

[X] Action Plan: Delegating Upwards

[X] Action Plan: (Not) Delegating Upwards
 
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@Paperclipped

Can Hazou mine gold using ES? Gold is found in the environment largely as a native metal which means it is not chemically bonded to anything else.

This means that the powers of ES separation and addition should be enough to allow Hazou to agglomerate gold nuggets from tiny specks of environmental gold.

ES works very slowly and crudely on metal, but this is because it can't penetrate the surface. Since the environmental gold is mostly in the form of a fine powder, it's all surface, so in theory Hazou shouldn't have a problem.

Gold is found in trace quantities basically everywhere on Earth. But in places where it is barely profitable to mine for gold, the concentration is 1-4 g/ton of ore. That's low-grade ore.

Assuming a concentration of 2.5 g/ton and a density of 1.68 ton/m^3 we can work out how much gold is in one cast of ES.

[(64m)^3*2.5*1.68]/1000 = 1100 kg of gold
 
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[x][Aburame] Spend 4 days per month making telescopes. (+200% production)
[x][Hyūga] Finalize the deal: Hazō will provide them with all gemstones of their choice, in exchange for a massive income stream. Hazō will need to do some missions as a result.

[X] Training Plan - Noburi: Mednin 40 -> 43 (126 XP)
[ ] Action Plan: Mending Fences
 
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Personally, I don't think that asking him to send a mission to Honey should be our first resort here. I'd mention it as an option, but what I really want to ask Asuma here is that he uses his TH prowess to try and recreate the honey crystal himself. It's an effect we know Earthshaping to be capable of, and Cannai told us that anything ES can do could be done by a more focused jutsu. This would give us a renewable supply of the crystal, which is what we truly need here.

It's only failing that that more cave samples would be useful. A competent strike team that finds the cave again and harvests all the crystal from it would certainly bring back quite a haul, but if this isn't a research trip with Hazou trying to use sealing to observe and recreate the growth process, it'll only be a one-time finite infusion of crystal. And given the time such a mission would take from travel time alone, I'm inclined to think that the TH route might be the faster of the two as well as the one with the better outcome if successful.

I'd also rephrase the Orochimaru situation, starting with our cause for concern and drawing our tentative conclusions afterwards. I'd put it something like this:
  • Now that we're approaching the PS unlock, we'd like to keep the secret from Orochimaru long enough to start exploring the field first.
    • We don't know how powerful 3D Sealing is, but if it's too powerful it could make Orochimaru an existential threat in his own right. We want to make sure that's not true before we share our findings with him.
    • In the end, it's your call.
Still deferential to Asuma's authority, but puts our main concern front and center and better explains why we think a choice like this is necessary.

Can't we ask other better THs like Ma and Pa, or a Summon Boss with landsense, and not break OPSEC on how we have PS with Asuma? If we really have no need to do so, let's at least try to have some shiny for ourselves, please?

EDIT: to clarify, yes, we will tell Asuma we have PS, but he will probably not probe "How" we have PS because Clan Secrets are a very real and very important thing.
 
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@Paperclipped

Can Hazou mine gold using ES? Gold is found in the environment largely as a native metal which means it is not chemically bonded to anything else.

This means that the powers of ES separation and addition should be enough to allow Hazou to agglomerate gold nuggets from tiny specks of environmental gold.

ES works very slowly and crudely on metal, but this is because it can't penetrate the surface. Since the environmental gold is mostly in the form of a fine powder, it's all surface, so in theory Hazou shouldn't have a problem.

Gold is found in trace quantities basically everywhere on Earth. But in places where it is barely profitable to mine for gold, the concentration is 1-4 g/ton of ore. That's low-grade ore.

Assuming a concentration of 2.5 g/ton and a density of 1.68 ton/m^3 we can work out how much gold is in one cast of ES.

[(64m)^3*2.5*1.68]/1000 = 1100 kg of gold
I wonder if these are actually the flecks that Hazō felt that one time on the training ground
 
[x][Aburame] Spend 4 days per month making telescopes. (+200% production)
[X][Hyūga] Finalize the deal: Hazō will provide them with sapphire and diamond only, in exchange for a healthy income stream.

Unlike the Aburame deal, the Hyuga deal isn't something that benefits Leaf citizens/ninja in general, just our clans (via massive revenue/sales). I don't want Hazou to spend time on missions to get the materials needed for other gems, both because of the risk of ninja interrupt and because it might expose how Hazou is doing it. The benefits (more money, better relations with the Hyuga) just aren't worth it.

We can spend time getting said materials when we have the free time, but @Halberdier is right: we do not have enough time for the amount of stuff we want to do. So let's start with this.

EDIT: Catching up with training plans too
[X]Training Plan: Hazou - A Little Less Alertness
[X] Training Plan - Noburi: Mednin 40 -> 43 (126 XP)
[X] Training Plan: Kei Deceit 20 -> 23 (-66 XP)
 
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