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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Shrooms said:
er, that's a direct quote from hashirama


Reasonably certain Hazou can't just like, call all of leaf to listen to him, so the difference in wording is moot to me
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But he can get up in the middle of the town square instead of the clan compound while he's saying it.

IMO this actually matters and I would prefer it changed. It isn't life-or-death but I think vibe is important here.
 
You know it would be really dope if ES didn't let us make the material for PS. That way we would have to go on missions to places like the crystal caves to be able to produce seals
 
Shrooms said:
Reasonably certain Hazou can't just like, call all of leaf to listen to him, so the difference in wording is moot to me
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We did exactly this with the Seal Bank.

Right now the plan reads like we're only making the announcement to the clan.

Asuma clearly expects a public denouncement and the very least we can do is, an hour before we make our announcement (somewhere public, not in the clan compound) send runners to the other clans and the KEI and hire a few criers to make it known that Lord Goketsu is has something important to say.
 
Shrooms said:
Okay, Mari has less control over scarf-man type actors if we do that. Any ideas there?
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Suffer? I agree it's shitty. Ask our ninja to be on the lookout in general and go over responses to hecklers with Mari beforehand.

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FaintlySorcerous said:
Asuma clearly expects a public denouncement and the very least we can do is, an hour before we make our announcement (somewhere public, not in the clan compound) send runners to the other clans and the KEI and hire a few criers to make it known that Lord Goketsu is has something important to say
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I'd say we gotta do this at least.
 
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FaintlySorcerous said:
We did exactly this with the Seal Bank.

Right now the plan reads like we're only making the announcement to the clan.

Asuma clearly expects a public denouncement and the very least we can do is, an hour before we make our announcement (somewhere public, not in the clan compound) send runners to the other clans and the KEI and hire a few criers to make it known that Lord Goketsu is has something important to say.
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Sir Stompy said:
Suffer? I agree it's shitty. Ask our ninja to be on the lookout in general and go over responses to hecklers with Mari beforehand.

EDIT:

I'd say we gotta do this at least.
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Okay I dont have any strong feelings on this so i changed it to 'public announcement' but otherwise left it the same. do you consider what's there sufficient prep?

edit: ah just saw the thing you quoted, let me add that in
 
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Noumero said:
Mm. It doesn't particularly seem to me that Oro was being strongly committed to that course of actions there. Indeed, we dealt with the problem just by having Tsunade glare at him a little, whereupon he dropped all demands. This wasn't Oro acting in accordance with the deepest foundations of his self-identity such that his course couldn't be corrected. Rather, he just saw free lunch and decided to grab it. The moment the lunch got a cost, he cringed and all of a sudden lost his appetite.

And I think this really is how essies mostly behave, when it comes down to it. The model you've outlined is what they want you to believe, that they're these forces of nature to whom only surrender is possible. But that only holds until there's something they want that you can withhold or threaten. If they can't just physically take whatever they want, if they need your cooperation, and you don't instantly fold to provide it, they become surprisingly talkative. See e. g. our Dragon-pieces negotiations with Oro, some parts of Ami's career, Conjura's apparently idiotic decisions around hostages, and why essies are able to "switch modes" and consider compromises at all when they know they're facing another essie.

(Which is all 100% reasonable behavior, by the way. Crafting a mythos of an unstoppable force around yourself so you can use cheap intimidation to make everyone bow to you, but still being able to recognize when this isn't working and switch to negotiations, is... I mean, yeah? Obviously you do that if you can, incredibly convenient.)

Edit: Actually, the negotiations over the Dragon pieces are particularly telling here. Oro sees a shiny, tells us he'll have it. Mari and Noburi go "sure sir, whatever you want sir". Hazou stands his ground instead... and lo and behold, Oro starts negotiating.

... I think I want to get all of the above across to Mari. I think she has some sort of unhealthy learned helplessness around S-rankers. See also her recent thoughts about how if Asuma is a threat to the Gouketsu, the best she can do is not provoke his ire.

Edit 2: This model is based on how real-life essies behave, by the way. See the Mafioso Nature.
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No big effortpost on Essie decision theory, Mafioso Nature mostly covers it better than I was going to.

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Asuma hasn't made himself into the kind of man who can be perceived as a Mafioso or Madman, or otherwise be inexploitable.
Trying to switch natures while being actively in charge would be a disaster, especially while his position is unstable.

Would it be nice if Asuma would put up more resistance, to make exploiting him a little more expensive? Probably. But I think he's doing very well, given the kind of man he is.

Hazou is playing much closer to the madman mindset, and everybody knows it("pretty damn far"). This makes "stand up to Orochimaru" a much easier/better call for him than it is for Asuma.

FWIW, I feel much happier with Hazou having Hazou's character and decision theory than Asuma's. (Although it would be nice if Hazou was more predictable in what the would and wouldn't go "madman" about.)

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It took so much effort to not make this a rehash of arguments with Zvi about the (in)defensibility of exploitable character. Suffice to say, I think Asuma is importantly flawed in their character, but is playing well given that constraint.
 
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Left-Hand Mutant said:
No big effortpost on Essie decision theory, Mafioso Nature mostly covers it better than I was going to.

-----

Asuma hasn't made himself into the kind of man who can be perceived as a Mafioso or Madman, or otherwise be inexploitable.
Trying to switch natures while being actively in charge would be a disaster, especially while his position is unstable.

Would it be nice if Asuma would put up more resistance, to make exploiting him a little more expensive? Probably. But I think he's doing very well, given the kind of man he is.

Hazou is playing much closer to the madman mindset, and everybody knows it("pretty damn far"). This makes "stand up to Orochimaru" a much easier/better call for him than it is for Asuma.

FWIW, I feel much happier with Hazou having Hazou's character and decision theory than Asuma's. (Although it would be nice if Hazou was more predictable in what the would and wouldn't go "madman" about.)

----
It took so much effort to not make this a rehash of arguments with Zvi about the (in)defensibility of exploitable character. Suffice to say, I think Asuma is importantly flawed in their character, but is playing well given that constraint.
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Agreed.

Great sociopolitical modeling by the way, @eaglejarl, @Velorien, @Paperclipped! Very realistic.
 
Shrooms said:
[X] Action Plan: So, You Have Come This Far, and Still, You Understand Nothing
Word Count: 394
  • Optimize with Uplift
  • Public Announcement: Send runners to other clans/KEI and hire criers. Make it known Lord Goketsu has something important to say.
    • Denounce Hidan's penchant for ritual slaughter.
    • Hazou's literally dedicated his career to preserving lives, even civilians, which he's frequently mocked for doing. He's astonished anyone believed he'd support ritual execution of people he's invested so much in protecting.
    • People say crazy things about Hazou daily. Look at his actions, not words from literal zealot mass-murderers.
    • Have Mari organize Clanmates to handle suspicious characters to avoid another Scarf Man incident.
  • Bring upset Goketsu ninja to Bakuchioka. Invite same-age Clan Heads/peers from specjonin celebration.
    • With permissions, describe the incident.
      • Hidan infiltrated Leaf and kidnapped Hazou, then forced him to play psychotic murder games.
        • When facing S-Rankers, options are generally, "Do what they say," or "Die." Hidan is no exception. Except he won't just kill Hazou. He'd kill everyone and everything Hazou cares about just to prove a point, because he can.
        • If Hazou's choice is between his Clanmates being at Hidan's mercy or himself, it's not much of a choice is it?
      • Hazou helped Bakuchioka recover as best he could, but the dead still died, along with the village Hidan just visited. How's it possible to believe Hazou endorses that? He's genuinely baffled. You can't both think he's a pussy for caring about every life and think he's a murder cultist. That's frankly stupid.
    • He's dedicated to sealmastery at his combat/social abilities' expense, to Mari's dismay. Why? Punching empowers himself, but better seals empower his Clan and Leaf ninja. He must be careful what'd shared lest it get turned against Leaf. He's not protecting them if he's arming their enemies. Shikaku taught him that. Though frustrating, he's determined to become so skilled, no sealmaster can imitate him and he can share freely.
    • Until his seals deal with S-Rankers, Hazou's stuck doing whatever they say. That doesn't mean you should believe their crazy bullshit.
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@Sir Stompy @FaintlySorcerous Better?
 
[X] Action Plan: So, You Have Come This Far, and Still, You Understand Nothing

@Shrooms you could probably offer to bring clan representatives to BakauuhIforgethowtospellit too, but yeah, this is good.
 
Nebulus said:
IRRC, he can't FOOM due to his unique chakra system, and therefore doesn't have enough CR, right? Any reason we don't get Nobs to FOOM?
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It's possible that Noburi will never be able to FOOM. Shadow Clones don't inherit the caster's bloodline limits, which means that any SC of Noburi will not have the Vampiric Dew's ability to use chakra from a barrel. Since they will only have a limit of 2 CP, they won't be able to train enough to earn XP.

It's maybe possible that the SCs will have an internal reserve of a regular ninja, since the 1 CP reserve the Wakahisa have is a result of a surgery they undergo and it's unclear if those sorts of "injuries" manifest in the clones.
 
Plan examination, comments or thoughts in red.

Shrooms said:
[X] Action Plan: So, You Have Come This Far, and Still, You Understand Nothing
Word Count: 394
  • Optimize with Uplift
  • Public Announcement: Send runners to other clans/KEI and hire criers. Make it known Lord Goketsu has something important to say.
    • Denounce Hidan's penchant for ritual slaughter. [I like this]
    • Hazou's literally dedicated his career to preserving lives, even civilians, which he's frequently mocked for doing. He's astonished anyone believed he'd support ritual execution of people he's invested so much in protecting. [I like this]
    • People say crazy things about Hazou daily. Look at his actions, not words from literal zealot mass-murderers. [I like this]
      • Goketsu distributes free seals, invested in public libraries, funds preserving civilian settlements because that's their Will of Fire. [I like this]
      • Hashirama said the meaning of life is love, and love is the will to protect, and that is the Will of Fire. Hazou admits, sometimes he's lacked context for finer points of Leaf tradition [While I don't normally endorse admitting to any character faults unprompted, I think it's fine here], but his love and desire to protect Fire's people has never wavered and never will. [I like this.]
    • Have Mari organize Clanmates to handle suspicious characters to avoid another Scarf Man incident. [I don't know what scarfman is. However, I think Mari is capable of picking out what Clanmates are good to handle nuisances even assuming we've lost internal support, so I like this.]
  • Bring upset Goketsu ninja to Bakuchioka. Invite same-age Clan Heads/peers from specjonin celebration. [For reference, this means we will describe the below to: Ino-Shika-Cho, Naruto-Sasuke-Sakura, Shino-Kiba-Hinata, Lee-Neji-Tenten, all assorted Goketsu ninja]
    • With permissions, describe the incident.
      • Hidan infiltrated Leaf and kidnapped Hazou, then forced him to play psychotic murder games.
        • When facing S-Rankers, options are generally, "Do what they say," or "Die." Hidan is no exception. Except he won't just kill Hazou. He'd kill everyone and everything Hazou cares about just to prove a point, because he can. [I like this. Sasuke probably feels the bitterness in this.]
        • If Hazou's choice is between his Clanmates being at Hidan's mercy or himself, it's not much of a choice is it? [I don't get what this line is saying or why it's here.]
      • Hazou helped Bakuchioka recover as best he could, but the dead still died, along with the village Hidan just visited. How's it possible to believe Hazou endorses that? He's genuinely baffled. [I like this.]
        You can't both think he's a pussy for caring about every life and think he's a murder cultist. That's frankly stupid. [Do people believe both, or do they believe that he was lying about the former and is actually the latter?]
    • He's dedicated to sealmastery at his combat/social abilities' expense, to Mari's dismay. [Do we need to mention that Mom doesn't like this? That she advises us on our training? I'd remove the last 3 words, it adds no value] Why? Punching empowers himself, but better seals empower his Clan and Leaf ninja. He must be careful what'd [what's] shared lest it get turned against Leaf. He's not protecting them if he's arming their enemies. Shikaku taught him that. Though frustrating, he's determined to become so skilled, no sealmaster can imitate him and he can share freely. [What is the purpose of this whole bullet point section? I assume it's to clarify why he went off to do sealing after all these announcements were coming out, instead of denying allegations right away. If so, I think this whole section in particular could be re-phrased to be more direct and have better impact, because I didn't understand it right away.]
    • Until his seals deal with S-Rankers, Hazou's stuck doing whatever they say. That doesn't mean you should believe their crazy bullshit. [I love this]
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RandomX2 said:
[I don't get what this line is saying or why it's here.]

[What is the purpose of this whole bullet point section? I assume it's to clarify why he went off to do sealing after all these announcements were coming out, instead of denying allegations right away. If so, I think this whole section in particular could be re-phrased to be more direct and have better impact, because I didn't understand it right away.]
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We're not just addressing the jashin stuff, we're also addressing mari bringing up that several goketsu are pissed at hazou for misc reasons. Wanna reaffirm hazou's been doing what he can to protect them too

RandomX2 said:
[Do we need to mention that Mom doesn't like this? That she advises us on our training? I'd remove the last 3 words, it adds no value]
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hm i guess thats fair.
 
Shane_357 said:
Honestly I've yet to see real reasons for that from anyone that aren't 'I don't like that they are modeled as people'. I've seen accusations of hypocrisy pop up again and again, but nothing I can actually take seriously.
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How is it not hypocrisy to join a clan to get their exclusive seals+jutsu and be angry when they expect to share your exclusive seals+jutsu? That's like the definition of hypocrisy.
 
Sir Stompy said:
How is it not hypocrisy to join a clan to get their exclusive seals+jutsu and be angry when they expect to share your exclusive seals+jutsu? That's like the definition of hypocrisy.
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Because that's not what they're upset about. They're upset about being made oathbreakers against the KEI by Hazou asking them to give up things they were given in good faith.
 
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