Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Voting is open for the next 1 day, 12 hours
Reader mode
I will vote for any plan that has at least one of the following, and if any plan has both of them, I'll only vote for other plans with both of them:

1) point out that killing off a MARI village is a waste of effort for the "make more people thing". We're committed to getting those numbers up, which means doing things the hard way, even if it means finding other villages to slaughter instead of this one (or worthier targets)

2) Point out that we did execute two people by hand, while thinking of Jashin (Squirrel village).


(If we wanna unleash this maniac on the 3rd path, we could mention they have a scroll ripe for the taking, but with our luck he'd want to bring us along, and also no scroll for family.)

Edit: I forgot that Yuno did the execution, it was just H's call. That doesn't really help up here, yeah.
 
Last edited:
Left-Hand Mutant said:
I'm by no means the best wordsmith, would you like to take a crack at it?

Or I can try this evening.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Kiba said:
Hazo killing people wouldn't be good for his reptuation. The fallout would be tremendous, especially the damage to Goketsu's reputation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
downzorz said:
Still taking in plans, but if we slaughter a village - or even a significant portion of one - under the current circumstances we might be in really deep shit when getting home. Last time we were caught by surprise, got out discreetly, and managed to stop most of the killing, in a remote village that nobody powerful cared about. This time we were walked out of the kage's office publicly, strolled around the village escorting Hidan, who was loudly discussing Hazo's Jashinism, and then followed him out to a village with a lot more eyes on it, given that we have an uplift project in progress. This would be impossible to cover up and a direct blow to the Kage's authority - sure, intelligent people who reason carefully might understand everything that went down, but what everyone else makes out of it will be a long the lines of "our Kage invited/approved of the Akatsuki member here to do evil slaughter (probably featuring dark (and worse, heretical) rituals) with a clan head" or "our Kage is too weak to stop the Akatsuki and rogue clan heads from slaughtering villages".

Maybe we can avoid execution if everyone agrees to blame Hidan, but that seems like it'd damage AMITY; maybe I'm off on how cynical ninja leadership is, but if the supposed enforcers are slaughtering villages, not just in remote areas of the world that it's difficult to tax anyways but right under their noses, that seems like a problem!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I don't think the Leaf leadership would care too much, since we are talking about civilians, who get wiped out once in a while anyway. We have an "excuse" and killing us/restraining us for it doesn't make sense when they're already so low on competent ninjas.

_The_Bomb said:
Could you do this instead?
  • Show Hidan our conviction (Jashin's greatest virtue)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think this makes sense in the context of the plan (trusting Out/Dark Hazou to say the right thing as he channels his inner Jashinist). But as others have suggested, this is not our conviction. Hazou believes in Uplift, in saving civilians' lives. He began to develop an aura during Rock's attack on Leaf based on Ninjas/Kei ignoring civilian suffering. If we want Hazou to ever develop his Jonin aura, then we can't negotiate on that.

While I'm glad that there is now a mention of going to kill bandits instead, I hesitate to vote on the Jashin Takes the Wheel plan because it would still accept killing innocents. We would be having a theological debate with Hidan, so let's inform him of our own model of Jashinism. He doesn't get to decide who we offer to Jashin, because it's not his offerings. I'm feeling certain he would accept that reasoning.
 
Last edited:
Nebulus said:
I don't think the Leaf leadership would care too much, since we are talking about civilians, who get wiped out once in a while anyway. We have an "excuse" and killing us/restraining us for it doesn't make sense when they're already so low on competent ninjas.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They can, however, use it as a rhetorical bludgeon given how we preach Uplift to everyone and their mother.
 
Oh, by the way, another neat thing my plan does: actually tries to verify whether Jashin is the sort of entity we should follow. We've been half-memeing on this point, but with Hidan's lore and half-submerged in Out, Hazou may be able to find a definitive answer regarding Jashin's long-term objectives. Leading to us either genuinely embracing the entity, or prioritizing the elimination of Him and His disciples.
 
Noumero said:
Oh, by the way, another neat thing my plan does: actually tries to verify whether Jashin is the sort of entity we should follow. We've been half-memeing on this point, but with Hidan's lore and half-submerged in Out, Hazou may be able to find a definitive answer regarding Jashin's long-term objectives. Leading to us either genuinely embracing the entity, or prioritizing the elimination of Him and His disciples.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Tbf the only part of your plan I don't agree with is 'as a last resort, let's kill the villagers'; I'm wholeheartedly concurring with everything else
 
Nebulus said:
Tbf the only part of your plan I don't agree with is 'as a last resort, let's kill the villagers'; I'm wholeheartedly concurring with everything else
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, that's fair, but I fear it's a load-bearing part. Our arguments drop in effectiveness massively if Hidan senses we're still not willing to kill everyone, so we must be willing to kill everyone if we want to not kill everyone. That's the gamble on which the plan is fundamentally premised and I am so very satisfied by its near-paradoxical structure.
 
Noumero said:
Perhaps Jashin's mechanically restricted: only able to empower its disciples for killing. If so, you're willing to do it — but in service of Civilization, not by harming it. Let's go kill some bandits.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...When was this added? Did I just miss it the first time around? Unvoting. I don't feel like this will go over well.
faflec said:
Yuno did that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not for lack of trying, for what it's worth. IIRC, the original plan called for Hazou to so it, himself.
 
Noumero said:
Oh, by the way, another neat thing my plan does: actually tries to verify whether Jashin is the sort of entity we should follow. We've been half-memeing on this point, but with Hidan's lore and half-submerged in Out, Hazou may be able to find a definitive answer regarding Jashin's long-term objectives. Leading to us either genuinely embracing the entity, or prioritizing the elimination of Him and His disciples.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't feel the plan quite support that. It seems to question about what Jashin want as opposed to our own desire.
 
REMINDER: Hidan is not threatening to kill us. He's trying to do us a favour.
Paperclipped said:
Hidan sighed, pulling his scythe off his shoulders and giving it a couple test swings. "Look, kid. Lord Jashin likes your Uplift idea. He likes you a lot, and wants to make Uplift happen. Makes sense he'd choose you for that – it ain't up my alley. But unless you give him the room to put his finger on the scales, he ain't gonna help you out. I'm sure he's fine with you doin' all the work, but you're gonna need guidance and strength to get it done. Unless you're fool enough to renounce Lord Jashin's blessing.

"Remember Hazō, the greatest sin is mercy, and these peasants don't matter. You want Lord Jashin to give you a hand? Lord Jashin helps those who help themselves."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We don't need to get confrontational or make detailed theological arguments that he won't respect.
We can just say "no, thank you."
Conviction is Jashin's greatest virtue, and we'll stand by our conviction in Uplift.


[X] Just Say No
  • Thank Hidan for telling us about the murder-quotas. We've been wondering how to get Jashin's blessings.
  • But we have strongly-held principles about which people we kill, and killing these people would violate them. So we won't.
    • Conviction is Jashins greatest virtue, and we stand by our conviction in Uplift.
  • We began Uplift before acknowledging Jashin's existence; with His blessing it would definitely go much smoother.
    • We want his blessing, and we'll earn it. But not like this.
    • There are plenty of people we *are* ok with killing.
    • Now that we know about murder-quotas, we'll look for opportunities to kill people that are in keeping with our principles.
    • Our pickiness means we'll probably never kill as many people has Hidan does, and that's ok. We're different people, and can serve Jashin through different means.
  • Thank him for trying to help us with a slaughter. It was quite kind of him, but we'll do this our way.
  • Hazoupilot's choice: go back to the tower to meet with Kakuzu, or try to hunt bandits with Hidan.
 
Last edited:
Noumero said:
Well, that's fair, but I fear it's a load-bearing part. Our arguments drop in effectiveness massively if Hidan senses we're still not willing to kill everyone, so we must be willing to kill everyone if we want to not kill everyone. That's the gamble on which the plan is fundamentally premised and I am so very satisfied by its near-paradoxical structure.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I understand. I do feel some morbid curiosity as to how your plan would go if Hazou went full Jashin, and I do have some expectations of Jashin backing us on this. But... I just can't imagine how much damage the plan's premise does to Hazou. It's garanteed to harm Hazou, whereas Hidan can be convinced to change targets anyway. As Mutant suggests, Hidan wants to help us get Jashin coins. Hidan first reflex when needing sacrifices is to go for civilian villages, but they're not the only sacrifices available. We don't have to do it Hidan's way. He'll probably understand that we want to carefully choose our offerings, provided we are honest in our desire to do it for Jashin.
 
Last edited:
Nebulus said:
As Mutant suggests, Hidan wants to help us get Jashin coins. Hidan first reflex when needing sacrifices is to go for civilian villages, but they're not the only sacrifices available. We don't have to do it Hidan's way. He'll probably understand that we want to carefully choose our offerings, provided we are honest in our desire to do it for Jashin.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Left-Hand Mutant said:
REMINDER: Hidan is not threatening to kill us. He's trying to do us a favour.

We don't need to get confrontational or make detailed theological arguments that he won't respect.
We can just say "no, thank you."
Conviction is Jashin's greatest virtue, and we'll stand by our conviction in Uplift.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Guys, much like Jashin is not a God of Holding Onto Your Ideals, Hidan is not a... quirky uncle who goes a little overboard sometimes but ultimately means well, or whatever. He is, in fact, a complete monster and one of the worst people in the setting, with the likes of Orochimaru and Pantsaa as his only competition.

He's not going to look at us sadly but approvingly but ultimately accept our stance, like he's some sort of wise mentor heartened to see a pupil taking his first real steps on a personal journey that Hidan disagrees with but supports because it's our choice yadda yadda. It's the exact same mistake as treating Jashin as the God of Holding Onto Your Ideals.

You know the first thing he'll actually do if we refuse him here? Slaughter the village himself. Because he'll enjoy doing that, and because it's his way of serving Jashin, and to say fuck-you to Hazou for refusing him and to ensure our refusal doesn't actually accomplish our goals. Maybe then he'll kill Hazou as well, if he feels like it.

And if we convince him we're still on Jashin's side, but want to sacrifice different people to Him? Can you guess what Hidan will do? That's right, he'll say "okay, wait here for a bit" and go slaughter the village himself.

We are talking to capital-E Evil here. We have an in with it, so it is sometimes being adorable in our direction, but it is evil.
 
Last edited:
Noumero said:
He's not going to look at us sadly but approvingly but ultimately accept our stance, like he's some sort of wise mentor heartened to see a pupil taking his first real steps on a personal journey that Hidan disagrees with but supports because it's our choice yadda yadda. It's the exact same mistake as treating Jashin as the God of Holding Onto Your Ideals.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hidan himself is pretty approving of conviction though (I guess because he at least believes Jashin likes that.) Hazou's talked back to him plenty of times only to be met with approval. So long as Hazou is signalling that he is still loyal to Jashin but disagrees with Hidan, I don't think it gets the reaction you're saying it will. Hidan does seem to know more about Jashin than us, but it's also true that Jashin favored us over him at Bakuchioka - he doesn't have all the answers and isn't inherently more pleasing to Jashin than we are. Hidan seemed to think Hazou would have insights Hidan didn't have when he asked us to pick targets for him.

All this to say, sticking to our guns and saying "I know who I'm supposed to kill." is not an inherent fail state imo, Hidan more than pretty much any other essie has admired such backtalk. Not to say that talking back automatically impresses him either. I think we'd need a strong argument as to how Jashin is better served by doing things our way (and I think there are such arguments.)

I do agree with you that I don't think he'd accept "I'm just not going to kill anyone" unless we just like, perfectly guess how the theology works and school him on it. But "I will pick better targets" is definitely workable with the right pitch.
 
Noumero said:
Guys, much like Jashin is not a God of Holding Onto Your Ideals, Hidan is not some sort of... quirky uncle who goes a little overboard sometimes but ultimately means well, or whatever. He is, in fact, a complete monster and one of the worst people in the setting, with the likes of Orochimaru and Pantsaa as his only competition.

And if we convince him we're still on Jashin's side, but want to sacrifice different people to Him? Can you guess what Hidan will do? That's right, he'll say "okay, wait here for a bit" and go slaughter the village himself.

We are talking to capital-E Evil here. We have an in with it, so it is sometimes being adorable in our direction, but it is evil.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes, he is an Evil mass murderer but because he wants to please his idol, as opposed to I-want-to-cause-as-much-harm-as-possible. He doesn't in fact try to kill everybody he meets. Also, I believe we have solid chances of reaching a reasonable outcome by debating with him because:
  • AFAIK He has not attempted or threatened to harm/kill us (unlike Oro and Itachi). It may be because we are blessed by Jashin, but that remains true thus far.
  • He has been trying to mentor us in Jashinism, and we are not opposed to it. Still, our interactions with Jashin have been different than Hidan's, so our relationship with Jashin may be different. What if it's a mistake to try to become more like Hidan ?
  • Sure, let him slaughter the village. I'd rather he does it. We'll have our own offerings. We're not competing. If the village must be massacred, let Hazou be as clean as possible. It doesn't mean that we are disloyal to Jashin.
 
Last edited:
Shrooms said:
Hidan himself is pretty approving of conviction though (I guess because he at least believes Jashin likes that.) Hazou's talked back to him plenty of times only to be met with approval. So long as Hazou is signalling that he is still loyal to Jashin but disagrees with Hidan, I don't think it gets the reaction you're saying it will. Hidan does seem to know more about Jashin than us, but it's also true that Jashin favored us over him at Bakuchioka - he doesn't have all the answers and isn't inherently more pleasing to Jashin than we are. Hidan seemed to think Hazou would have insights Hidan didn't have when he asked us to pick targets for him.

All this to say, sticking to our guns and saying "I know who I'm supposed to kill." is not an inherent fail state imo, Hidan more than pretty much any other essie has admired such backtalk. Not to say that talking back automatically impresses him either. I think we'd need a strong argument as to how Jashin is better served by doing things our way (and I think there are such arguments.)

I do agree with you that I don't think he'd accept "I'm just not going to kill anyone" unless we just like, perfectly guess how the theology works and school him on it. But "I will pick better targets" is definitely workable with the right pitch.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sure, but:
  • Convincing Hidan that we actually do know whom we need to kill is IMO highly non-trivial. From Hidan's point of view, if we're actually devoted to Jashin, we should look to Hidan for guidance. He has Jashin-granted powers, Jashin-sent dreams, we have some dice rolls in our favour. If we want to disagree with him, we need to argue that his authority on the matter of Jashin is undermined in our eyes for some reason.
  • Hidan isn't going to be fooled regarding why we actually don't want to kill these people. That it has nothing to do with Jashin, that all those "my way is different" statements are just paper-thin excuses we're concocting to appease him. Unless we actually warp our motivational structure.
  • None of that, even if successful, prevents Hidan from just going over and slaughtering the village himself. Unless we convince him it's actually not in Jashin's interests.
Nebulus said:
Yes, he is an Evil mass murderer but because he wants to please his idol, as opposed to I-want-to-cause-as-much-harm-as-possible
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think one does not exclude the other. I think he thinks it pleases Jashin, but it also pleases Hidan as well. Indeed, one of the salient possibilities is that Hidan likes it so much he engages in massacres more than Jashin wants him to. (See @Twinnstars' interpretation of that person-grows-out-of-scythe-and-ages-backwards dream.)
Sure, let him slaughter the village. I'd rather he do it. We'll have our own offerings. We're not competing. If the village must be massacred, let Hazou be as clean as possible.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Fair.
 
Last edited:
Noumero said:
Guys, much like Jashin is not a God of Holding Onto Your Ideals, Hidan is not a... quirky uncle who goes a little overboard sometimes but ultimately means well, or whatever. He is, in fact, a complete monster and one of the worst people in the setting, with the likes of Orochimaru and Pantsaa as his only competition.

He's not going to look at us sadly but approvingly but ultimately accept our stance, like he's some sort of wise mentor heartened to see a pupil taking his first real steps on a personal journey that Hidan disagrees with but supports because it's our choice yadda yadda. It's the exact same mistake as treating Jashin as the God of Holding Onto Your Ideals.

You know the first thing he'll actually do if we refuse him here? Slaughter the village himself. Because he'll enjoy doing that, and because it's his way of serving Jashin, and to say fuck-you to Hazou for refusing him and to ensure our refusal doesn't actually accomplish our goals. Maybe then he'll kill Hazou as well, if he feels like it.

And if we convince him we're still on Jashin's side, but want to sacrifice different people to Him? Can you guess what Hidan will do? That's right, he'll say "okay, wait here for a bit" and go slaughter the village himself.

We are talking to capital-E Evil here. We have an in with it, so it is sometimes being adorable in our direction, but it is evil.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I agree that Hidan is a monster. Sorry if I gave you the impression I had forgotten this.

My model of this monster says that he would respond acceptably to being told "No, but I will kill some other people."
Do you disagree?

2 of the 3 times we've met him, Hidan has used the phrase "theological question" to mean "boring question I don't feel like thinking about", then defaulted to "just massacre more humans" as the answer.

The more convoluted and nuanced our arguments get, the more he'll get bored and default to "massacre more people" as the answer. This makes action plans centered on detailed theological debate bad plans.
Do you disagree?
 
Last edited:
Noumero said:
None of that, even if successful, prevents Hidan from just going over and slaughtering the village himself. Unless we convince him it's actually not in Jashin's interests.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I agree with this and don't mind that, I'm more concerned with establishing precedent now so Hidan doesn't keep bringing us to more peasant villages.

Noumero said:
Hidan isn't going to be fooled regarding why we actually don't want to kill these people. That it has nothing to do with Jashin, that all those "my way is different" statements are just paper-thin excuses we're concocting to appease him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hazou is Jashin's chosen, so inherently all of his reasoning has to do with Jashin. Your plan uses this approach, even, which I approve of. Jashin chose Hazou, despite his ideals seeming to be quite different from Hidan's. Jashin also greatly admires conviction (according to Hidan it is literally the #1 virtue), so inherently, he must not want Hazou to drastically change from what he already believes, he should want Hazou to believe it more. So yeah, Hidan will realize why we don't want to kill these specific people ('seen every matter of bleeding heart') and we can argue that's why Jashin chose Hazou.

Noumero said:
Convincing Hidan that we actually do know whom we need to kill is IMO highly non-trivial.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He seems to think we do, given that the last couple times we saw him, he asked Hazou for guidance on who to target, and from his point of view, Hazou's choice was really good, leading to AMITY.

Noumero said:
He has Jashin-granted powers, Jashin-sent dreams
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So like, Hazou's benefited from a mysterious hand guiding him (see: clutch mechanical rolls, the seance, the divination roll locating the Otter Scroll, arguably Hidan showing up personally in Leaf when we prayed for help regarding Akane) enough at this point that imo what he lacks compared to Hidan isn't Jashin intervention, it's Faith that the intervention is due to Jashin :V

Noumero said:
If we want to disagree with him, we need to argue that his authority on the matter of Jashin is undermined in our eyes for some reason.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think the best approach there is what I said a few lines up. Hazou isn't the one questioning Jashin's choice, Hidan is. Jashin chose Hazou, knowing what he's like, and admires conviction. To please Jashin, Hazou needs to hold true to his beliefs, even in the face of Hidan. Hidan is helpful as an advisor, but ultimately he is not the voice of Jashin himself. Hazou has a kill list already, some of which has already been acted upon a la Hidan, and it turned out well for Uplift, leading to AMITY. Jashin doesn't choose wrongly, so Hidan should have faith in Hazou.
 
Last edited:
Noumero said:
If Jashin governs life and death — well, Hidan fills the High Priest of Death slot's pretty well. But his life-preserving counterpart seems missing. Your spot, maybe?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I get nervous around what I suspect will be interpreted as 'Hazo should say this, literally'.
  • If Jashin governs life and death, Hidan has Death covered, but who preserves life?
    • Implication: maybe you?
Noumero said:
Why else'd Jashin chosen Hazou, whose ideology is as far from Hidan's modus operandi as it gets? Why'd he favoured Hazou so blatantly?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If you have space, asking Hidan if he (Jashin or Hidan) has ever had a disciple like Hazo, and if not, why he's treating Hazo like all the other disciples, might be an idea.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open for the next 1 day, 12 hours
Remove ads
Back
Top