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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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So: Due to talks about 0 complexity Runes being able to be autocompleted if they go negative and the Talismanic Master Rune of Spite's situation, plan Back With A Vengeance has been updated to include "Understand the Master Rune of Spite."

While I don't want to do multiple "free" understandings a turn, this one feels narratively "valid" for us to do.
 
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BungieONI said:
Nope. The slots are what Soul uses to track Sets. A set can only have 5 pieces as you say, with those pieces in certain categories.
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...If Sets are a combo, and have a maximum of 5 items, can we compress a Set Combo of up to 5 Combo Items that potentially each have Master Rune Combos into a single Master Rune?
 
Dark as Silver said:
How do you compress 5 items?
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I don't know how we would do it, I just think it might be the method used to break the rule of 3 and also break the '1 master rune per item' rules simultaenously.
soulcake said:
And yet Urkdrengi, the Foefeller, manages to not only break the Rule of three, but does so with multiple Master Runes as well.
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(I don't keep up with thread discussion much, so I imagine someone else has already brought up this possibility, though.)
 
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Shard said:
I don't know how we would do it, I just think it might be the method used to break the rule of 3 and also break the '1 master rune per item' rules simultaenously.
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The issue here is that you're describing two very different things that just happen to share the same vocabulary. And also that you're raising at least three separate consternations at once, (Rule of Three, Rule of Form, What are Set Combos)

Rune Combos are three separate runes that have synergistic effects when inscribed together on the same item. They are limited by the Rule of Three which is an effective (although not universal) rule that runesmiths cannot inscribe more than 3 runes on a single item. They can be compressed into one single Master rune which carries the effects (or improves the effects) of the entire combo.

Set combos are between 3 and 5 items which have synergistic effects when used together. They are limited by ??? the rule of form???? Soulcake said so??? Carrying capacity of the dwarf in question???
They all involve different runes which all have different forms based on what item they're inscribed on, its not clear what form we would be compressing things to? How do you compress multiple runes when you don't even understand how they're interacting?
 
Right, someone reminded me. Master Rune of THungni's complexity is 7, so with your traits it's now actually 24 actions to Understand.

Also Bungie asked me for clarification about Mind for Constructs. So I'll clarify because it may read that every three actions you input is getting you 2 + 1 extra progress, but that isn't my intent.

Basically, if you're doing research on Runes, you get 2 extra progress, but if you're building a Construct like a Gronti or maybe doing Construct research that doesn't involve Runes, then you get 1 extra progress instead.

So it's been reworded for clarity.
Every 2 research actions used for researching Engineering and [Construct] Runes add 1 extra progress. If 3 research actions, instead add 2 extra progress. Every 3 request or research actions that involve Constructs but not Runes add 1 extra progress. Possesses a deep understanding of Gronti and the mechanics of the Dwarfen form.

#Rune-Ideas
I think I got em all, but let me know if I missed any.
kinglugia said:
@soulcake, here be a #Rune-Idea

[Banner] Master Rune of Phantom March: A Master Rune fit for a Runelord's panoply, this enables the Runelord to summon up to seven phantom warriors made of shadow and fog to defend themselves, each strong and skilled as a hoary longbeard, yet highly capable of coordinating with the Runelord in battle.

Discovered by the Runelord Dormul Mogdisson while researching an unrelated project involving holographic light.
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Mayto said:
[Banner] Master Rune of the Phantom Host: This rune once invoked, conjures an illusionary shield wall of a hundred heavily armed and armoured dwarfs for up to a day. The illusion looks realistic, although the dwarfs barely move except for simulated breathing. The illusions throw up dust as they march, allowing a small force with this banner to pretend to be a much larger army for the sake of distracting opponents.
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Both this and Phantom March are similar to ideas I had in my head. Gonna make em variants of a Master Rune of Phantasms. A few changes from what you envisioned but the idea is similar. The illusion part I've broken off into its own Rune.
Dragonofelder said:
That reminds me:

Rune of Auto-Playing: This Rune can only be placed upon boards of the somewhat well known game "Thud". Once activated, the Troll pieces will begin to move of their own accord, sliding across the board on their turn, and responding to the placement of the dawi pieces. The animation remains active until the game is ended, be it a win for the dawi or the trolls. Variations of this Rune exist - for differing level of skill to play against, and for animated dawi pieces instead.

Thinking about it, this is probably locked behind some research
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Im not sure what this is actually.
Dragonofelder said:
Rune of Phoenix Rebirth: This Rune is a rare one, one of it's reagents is the feather of a Phoenix - and one that is freely given, to boot. When the wearer of this Rune comes close to death, they burst into sudden flame - but while their foes are driven back by the intense heat, their own wounds are sealed, and they are filled with burning vigour. Sadly this Rune has it's limits: once activated, it takes a great deal of time to recharge. And it cannot bring back those who die a "natural" death, or those who accept their death.

Master Rune of Phoenix Rebirth: Even more difficult to create then the base version, as this Rune requires the feather of an Arcane Phoenix, a nearly mythical beast. Upon activation the bearer becomes a pillar of burning flame, but this from persists for many minutes. Their speed and strength are greatly enhanced, and all unclean creatures shall burn fiercely when touched.

Unsure if similar Runes exist already

Edit: oops forgot #Rune-Ideas
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Both would be Master Runes in this case, if you can think of better names that would be appreciated.
Voikirium said:
Master Rune of Star Shower: Streaks of fire fall from the sky like rain, each one capable of drilling through hardened steel like so much paper, of breaking shield and stone and scale alike. Ash and rubble are all that's left behind in the end, even steel and stone left charred, warped, and broken. A great scorch mark on the world, that can never heal.

Master Rune of Earth Shaker: A deceptively simple name, the world, the floor underneath your very feet, is shaken, rocked, moved and broken, ground down under primal and absolute forces, small chasm ripped asunder, the rock and dirt broken like so much glass. In the wake, new hills and new plains and new clefts are left behind from the tectonic forces unleashed, small perhaps but it is still fighting the very ground and winning.

Master Rune of Wind Stirrer: Related to the Master Rune of Grungni but...destructive. A great cyclone, greater than any cyclone otherwise imagined, rises up from the Rune's bearer, and where he walks devastation follows. These winds are strong enough to pick up a troll and toss him about, shatter his neck on the earth; throw a wagon like a child's toy, hard enough it shatters; break down the walls of a storehouse like so many twigs.

Master Rune of Ferocious Frost: A blizzard; but not simply its imitation, not simply its attempt, but its truest form. Snow is all whipped up, blanketing the earth, the ground, the people. A chill as heavy as a hammer falls on the world. Ice chokes, blankets, smothers and strangles everything. Life is buried under the chill.

The Runes of Armageddon, as they will be known in the faded, falling, broken days of the Karaz Ankor, are nothing more and nothing less than natural disasters yoked to a Dwarf's will. They are not safe to be around when active, and are meant only to be brought to bear in the most desperate of times.
--
Some Runes for What If Skarrenbakraz Combo but different natural disaster than volcanic eruption.

#Rune-Ideas
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Added.

I'm gonna have to pause Rune Submissions for new stuff, if you can think of variants for different categories of existing Runes feel free to offer them. I'll be fiddling with wording and descriptions to something more consistent.
 
Dark as Silver said:
The issue here is that you're describing two very different things that just happen to share the same vocabulary. And also that you're raising at least three separate consternations at once, (Rule of Three, Rule of Form, What are Set Combos)

Rune Combos are three separate runes that have synergistic effects when inscribed together on the same item. They are limited by the Rule of Three which is an effective (although not universal) rule that runesmiths cannot inscribe more than 3 runes on a single item. They can be compressed into one single Master rune which carries the effects (or improves the effects) of the entire combo.

Set combos are between 3 and 5 items which have synergistic effects when used together. They are limited by ??? the rule of form???? Soulcake said so??? Carrying capacity of the dwarf in question???
They all involve different runes which all have different forms based on what item they're inscribed on, its not clear what form we would be compressing things to? How do you compress multiple runes when you don't even understand how they're interacting?
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I mean.. that's why I said I don't know how. It's just that it seems awfully suspicious that Set Combos and Urkdrengi both can break the Rule of 3 and Master Runes simultaneously.. and both up to a limit of 5. In particular, Urkdrengi's Runes are melded together to the point where Snorri can't tell where one rune ends and another begins. Which is also similar to a Set Combo.

That's why I said I don't know how, yet it seems to be the method. It's the closest match.
 
[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about Prince Malekith of Nagarythe [Limited]
[X] [Social:] Menlinwen
[X] [Social:] Skarri Dolgisson
 
Shard said:
I mean.. that's why I said I don't know how. It's just that it seems awfully suspicious that Set Combos and Urkdrengi both can break the Rule of 3 and Master Runes simultaneously.. and both up to a limit of 5. In particular, Urkdrengi's Runes are melded together to the point where Snorri can't tell where one rune ends and another begins. Which is also similar to a Set Combo.

That's why I said I don't know how, yet it seems to be the method. It's the closest match.
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Set combos don't break the rule of three. Because they aren't three runes inscribed on one item. The rule doesn't apply.
Its like saying its suspicious an entire army of dwarves can march together because they have more than three runes together.
The rule of three appears to be because of the limited magic carrying capacity of the material its inscribed on, set combos are fundamentally different because they're not the same material and form so whatever internal magical stresses are seperate and don't interact the same way a single item would.

Yes understanding how set runes are seeming able to create a positive feedback when their effects should stop at their own items would be an incredibly good thing for us to learn.
Yes multiple people have pointed to the unique style Urkdrengi runes being exceptionally interesting.
But you made mechanical suggestions, and I am explaining why the mechanics wouldn't allow us to do what you were suggesting.
 
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[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
 
soulcake said:
Im not sure what this is actually.
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As someone else said, it's an Chess Bot, but with Dwarf Chess from Discworld. It's probably locked far, far beyond the Mind of Things, if I remember correctly.

soulcake said:
Both would be Master Runes in this case, if you can think of better names that would be appreciated.
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Hmmm, okay. Is the Phoenix part of the name the issue, or Rebirth?

Maybe Master Rune of Phoenix Renewal & Master Rune of Arcane Renewal, with the latter being a Lonely Rune?
 
[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about Nagarythe [Insightful]
[X] [Social:] Snorri Jollson
[X] [Social:] Rudil
 
[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about Nagarythe [Insightful]
[X] [Social:] Snorri Jollson
[X] [Social:] Rudil
 
Dark as Silver said:
Seems like a real case of Perfection is the enemy of Good.
I don't care about mirrors, we can't make them. I agree they're a capstone, I agree they're very good. Ironically they're a worse long term solution because their requirement on Elven magic means they aren't reproducible after the War of Vengance. And those settlements that aren't underway connected couldn't afford a mirror anyway.
Do not explain why the Semaphore is worse, explain why it is insufficient to the requirements.


You skipped over my points about redundancy does infact make this safer than roads, but when we look at the requirements:
A) Faster than any Runebearer. Its not even disputed this plan beats that.
B) Safer than any road. It is at minimum as safe as the Underway, and probably far safer as it never needs physical travel between established safe points and some degree of redundancy in different routes/ being able to skip over relay towers means that it isn't dependent on single points of failure except at the very start and end.
B*) Overland its still safer than an overland road and when connecting to these smaller poorer communities the most important possible thing is that the item doesn't take a Runelord to make as they often don't even have journeymen present.
C) As reliable as a Master crafted axe. Uncertain until we test it however the anticipated unreliability's seem to be in the users not the mechanism.
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I didn't read your point on redundancy because it was late and I missed it or you edited it in after/while I responded.

For C, the way I see Alric's presentation of the challenge is that this project can't have any reliability issues period, regardless of source. Otherwise it fails the intent of the challenge in my eyes. I have thought for this entire conversation that Alric and Whitebeard are talking about the whole process of runes and infrastructure around whatever is made. The Semaphore mechanism itself is reliable, but introduces unreliability because of what is required to make use of it.

Justification for this belief is, runes are reliable because they simply do what they are supposed to. If Alric is making a point of reliability, then he wants something more.

Aliya said:
@LaggPlaguedDuke , @BungieONI , this is mainly for you.
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Will do! Added that into my plan.

Shard said:
...If Sets are a combo, and have a maximum of 5 items, can we compress a Set Combo of up to 5 Combo Items that potentially each have Master Rune Combos into a single Master Rune?
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If you have a 5 item set, you compress each combo in that set into 5 separate Master Runes. You simplify those 5 master runes into regular runes, converting as necessary. You take three of those regular runes and make a sixth Master Rune.

You stick the sixth master rune and the remaining two runes from the previous compressions into a final combo. You compress this final combo into a seventh Master Rune.

This is not what you're talking about, I think, but it is how you could derive a single Master Rune from a Set of 5 pieces. It doesn't break the rule of three in any place during the process.
 
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You can create a MRune of a set Combo by doing a bunch of compressions of the individual item combos. I'm a big fan of one day making the Master Rune of the World That Was by first compressing Stormmantle, Mountainsouled, and Makerstrike. After that I think you either have to reduce them all to normal runes and together they would for the combo World That Was that when compressed makes MR World that Was.

Since we're doing mountainsouled anyway for the Hearthguard, it's actually pretty easy since stormmantle is like 3 ap to compress and Makerstrike is like 7.
 
[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about Nagarythe [Insightful]
[X] [Social:] Snorri Jollson
[X] [Social:] Brynna
 
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[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
-[X] Snorri/Karstah
-[X] Movement of Things 2 Snorri
-[X] Drakk Rearing 1 Snorri
-[X] Design Spite Talisman, "Zharr-a-Drakhazi" 1 Snorri
-[X] Compress a Combo: Expurgation 1 Snorri
-[X] Odd Wyrm's Blood 1 Research
-[X] A Wonderful Endeavour 2 Karstah
--[X] Petition the Hold 45 Drakk Favor
-[X] Understand a Master Rune: MSpite Instant
-[X] Retainer/Orders
-[X] Waywarding 1 Retainer
-[X] Training Regime Pt1 1 Retainer
--[X] Drakk Expertise 30 Drakk Favor
--[X] Ornsmotek Expertise 60 Favor with Kraka Ornsmotek
--[X] Ravnsvake Expertise 40 Favor with Cult of Valaya
-[X] A Wonderful Endeavour 1 Retainer
-[X] Order: T4 Magma Wyrm's Lung
-[X] Order 2: T4 Elder Stonehorn's Eye 15 Grom Favor
--[X] Royal Expedite x2 30 Kraka Grom Favor
-[X] Order 3: T4 Elder Stone Troll's Blood 15 Grom Favor
--[X] Royal Expedite x2 30 Kraka Grom Favor Number 2
-[X] Order 4: Kraken Corpse
--[X] Royal Authority 10 Kraka Grom Favor
-[X] Order 5: Elder Kraken Eyes
--[X] Royal Authority 15 Kraka Grom Favor
-[X] [Difficult] Coronation Gift Pt. 1:
--[X] Accept
 
soulcake said:
Both this and Phantom March are similar to ideas I had in my head. Gonna make em variants of a Master Rune of Phantasms. A few changes from what you envisioned but the idea is similar. The illusion part I've broken off into its own Rune.
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Mmm, so it'd be a combination of mine, @Mayto, and yours in the attribution part then?
Though I'd love to see the illusion part.

The inspiration for the Phantom March came from the more recent lore of Final Fantasy 14, where the MC/Warrior of Light resorted to summon phantom warriors to explain the higher leveled 8-man party bossfights.
 
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