Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
I think we should focus on what is our strength or specialty or area of expertise or area of research which we have delved down into.

We haven't done a bunch of research into Kingship or into Brotherhood or transmitting information or knowledge or wisdom or anything.

Our branch of stuff is odd stuff. Purification and metallurgy, Movement and Gronti and Golems and prosthetics, prosthetics and even vision. Also, great Productivity.

Yes, we have. We've gone deep down the Mind of Things path, which is itself a derivative of Movement of Things.

It's probably our furthest advanced/deepest research project, the thing we've done the most research for.
 
Yes, we have. We've gone deep down the Mind of Things path, which is itself a derivative of Movement of Things.

It's probably our furthest advanced/deepest research project, the thing we've done the most research for.



We are 20 AP away from the next Mind of Things threshold while compressing and then simplifying Amplifier is 3AP. I am not sure if its feasible to raise Drakks, Build the Khazagar, wage a war to close a warp rift and also develop the Master Rune of Kingship at the same time, especially if the next part does not give us Master Rune of Kingship.
 
Last edited:
We are 20 AP away from the next Mind of Things threshold, while compressing and then simplifying Amplifier is 3AP. I am not sure if its feasible to raise Drakks, Build the Khazagar, wage a war to close a warprift and also develop the Master Rune of Kingship at the same time.
It really is not. Especially since the next part is probably only starting on the path to Kingship.
 
[X] Plan Varried Drakk Rearing
[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
[X] Plan Turn 50: Back With A Vengeance

I'm really not happy about going down to 1 action on Snorri's three children, dragons or not. I don't care if it's technically sufficient. It feels neglectful to me. Some things should be more important than runes.
 
Last edited:
Wow, I really like the idea of MPurification as our anvil protection. We don't have normal amplification and understanding it is going to be I think 3 actions. It's a C4 odd/talisman rune so it's like 4 - (4-6) - 1 = 3AP. Becomes 2 input with traits to understand, then 2 more to get the normal rune. So like 4 AP total.

Compressing Amplifier is 1 ap because it's C5 and odd + talisman specialty is 6 total. Then making the normals is 2 ap. 3 total. Literally easier for us to compress and convert MAmplifier than MAmplification. So lets do that instead because it's just better lol. Something like MPurification + amplifier + ? to take the magic out of Snorri and throw it back into the item.
The important question is what we want to do with the magic in the item, because only a wazzock would just let it pile up. Determining that would help establish what the third rune should be. Thungni would make sense, it would help ensure the magic empowers Runework that much more effectively.
Yeah, and one issue is that Purification dumps the magic as heat so there needs to be rune that converts heat back into magic for it to be useful in the forging. Otherwise it's just good for keeping Snorri from exploding again.
It depends on either the 2 runes in the MPurification artifact, or it depends on the rest of Snorri's artifact set.

It could be the case that the MPurification artifact, with the proper runes, would have the ability or option to either radiate heat or to channel all the energy into Mhorni or Zharrgal or into whatever Snorri is crafting at the time.

Or it could be the case that the other artifacts Snorri has -- mostly thinking of Zharrgal here -- would pick up the ability to make use of the radiated heat of the MPurification item.

It could also just be the case that the MPurification item purifies the magic energy; you then have that purified energy to work with, which can be channeled into the Ash Storm, into Mhorni, or into Zharrgal, or into whatever item you're crafting. And the extra heat is just extra heat.

i.e. It could be the case that you don't have to do anything with the extra heat and turn the heat back into magical energy because, well, the rest of MPurification is already doing all the job. Or the rest of the World-That-Was combo is doing its job.


Buuuut, if you wanted to, or if you needed to, then...

Perhaps a second hammer? Or a funestaff? One that, rather than functioning like Zharrgal which uses energy to heat up metal and do the MConduction rune... This hammer would use some derivation of MForgeflame?

This hammer or runestaff would have a set of runes that go "and this draws in heat and channels it to do Thungni's and Smednir's work."

... Alternatively, we go to the Structural Ruins for this.

The Arcane Fulcrum is a place, right. We could build a workshop over it. We could put these fire-transforming or energy-channeling ruins into the structure.

Not sure what we'd want to put over the Arcane Fulcrum though. Super runesmith-workshop? Akazit-stuff? Super-forging stuff? Or a "super-charge-up the Dragon Gronti" battery charger or something?

Or maybe... hmmm... Hmmm... Actually, that last one just gave me an idea.

Mhorni was made because of the interactions of the Arcane Fulcrum, together with the crafting we were doing.

What if we could create some kind of structure with a "Create a new Elemental whenever the Winds of Magic blow strongly enough" rune-combo on it?

Oh, that could be sweet!

(*Updated*)[ ] [Difficult] The Movement of Things Pt. 5b: [Cost: (14 -11) = 3 actions] Master of the Odd and Mind for Constructs will proc. Examining...the Construct, has given you ideas. It is not a Gronti, not truly, but it acts like one and is arguably even more versatile. It makes you wonder if perhaps there is a way to create Gronti of a similar shape and function.

We do have the Movement 5b tech tree to go down the research tree through.

A facility for creating more Elementals, or binding Elementals to Gronti, or binding Elementals to artifacts or items or to places or something.

Akazit, Movement 5b, Odd Wyrm's Blood, Siphoning, Windsight... so many things that could potentially converge in a long enough run... If we get Akazit and Elemental research and Wyrmblood and Windsight going, we might have the basis for an entire runic research university going.

That is, if we advance some of that research enough, I suspect that we might blow open a big enough field of magical and runic research, that we might be able to just point Khazagar at it and let the runesmiths go wild with researching it.

I'm not just enthused about the idea of discovering some new runes or knowledge and making something neat. I'm excited about the possibility that Snorri might break open an entire new field of research for runes; that that plus access to the Arcane Fulcrum, would give runesmiths so many things to investigate, that future runesmiths would have a ready-made source of a natural resource (and mystery and wonder) to poke at; and thanks to Snorri, they would have some of the tools to be able to usefully poke at it in a way that would let them achieve results.

And then if you have that -- if you have the people, if you have a convenient natural (supernatural?) phenomena, and if you have just enough tools and knowledge to let people explore and discover it on their own but not so much tools and knowledge that you already know all the answers -- then you've created the conditions for something priceless and amazing; the ability to just let runesmiths go wild researching stuff, and coming up with new advances all the time.

... Ironically, I think Vragni's lot might even be more applicable towards researching this odd stuff. Because of the fact that Vragni is all about doing many things and discovering many new things, rather than Snorri's approach of making so much stuff.

The idea that we might give validity and weight to Vragni's methods is amusing. If it happened it would be funny. Snorri would not only have given good argument that his methods were good and useful for the Karaz Ankor; he also would have given good argument that Vragni's method was good too. And it wouldn't be Vragni that would have done this. "Here, I proved the validity of your own philosophy for you."
 
[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
[X] Plan Turn 50: Back With A Vengeance

[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about Nagarythe [Insightful]
[X] [Social:] Menlinwen
[X] [Social:] Brynna
 
Last edited:
You know, it occurs to me the portals of the Fimir, rather than leftover magic not yet swept into the Vortex by the not-yet-upgraded Waystone Network, may have been responsible for the daemonic foes like those Malekith and Whitebeard faced at the beginning of The Great Betrayal. After all, OTL the north would not have been nearly as strong nor have cultivated ties with the Elves yet, allowing the Fimir to grow.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep

[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about Prince Malekith of Nagarythe [Limited]
 
[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep

Someone on discord pointed out a potential issue with using Expurgation is a gift. Only Runesmiths can runecast, and Expurgation is a runecasting type of rune. So while it should still be usable ro delete anyone who tries to cast on Whitebeard, I am not sure if it can be used proactiveky by the king.

Edit: Soul clarified in discord, he should still be able to use it fine.
 
Last edited:
You know, it occurs to me the portals of the Fimir, rather than leftover magic not yet swept into the Vortex by the not-yet-upgraded Waystone Network, may have been responsible for the daemonic foes like those Malekith and Whitebeard faced at the beginning of The Great Betrayal. After all, OTL the north would not have been nearly as strong nor have cultivated ties with the Elves yet, allowing the Fimir to grow.
If it's what happened in OTL then it's likely that Albion humans sacrificed themselves again to deal a mutual knockout blow against the Fimir to close the rifts in a final hail mary of their civilization.

It depends on either the 2 runes in the MPurification artifact, or it depends on the rest of Snorri's artifact set.

It could be the case that the MPurification artifact, with the proper runes, would have the ability or option to either radiate heat or to channel all the energy into Mhorni or Zharrgal or into whatever Snorri is crafting at the time.

Or it could be the case that the other artifacts Snorri has -- mostly thinking of Zharrgal here -- would pick up the ability to make use of the radiated heat of the MPurification item.

It could also just be the case that the MPurification item purifies the magic energy; you then have that purified energy to work with, which can be channeled into the Ash Storm, into Mhorni, or into Zharrgal, or into whatever item you're crafting. And the extra heat is just extra heat.

i.e. It could be the case that you don't have to do anything with the extra heat and turn the heat back into magical energy because, well, the rest of MPurification is already doing all the job. Or the rest of the World-That-Was combo is doing its job.


Buuuut, if you wanted to, or if you needed to, then...

Perhaps a second hammer? Or a funestaff? One that, rather than functioning like Zharrgal which uses energy to heat up metal and do the MConduction rune... This hammer would use some derivation of MForgeflame?

This hammer or runestaff would have a set of runes that go "and this draws in heat and channels it to do Thungni's and Smednir's work."

... Alternatively, we go to the Structural Ruins for this.

The Arcane Fulcrum is a place, right. We could build a workshop over it. We could put these fire-transforming or energy-channeling ruins into the structure.

Not sure what we'd want to put over the Arcane Fulcrum though. Super runesmith-workshop? Akazit-stuff? Super-forging stuff? Or a "super-charge-up the Dragon Gronti" battery charger or something?

Or maybe... hmmm... Hmmm... Actually, that last one just gave me an idea.

Mhorni was made because of the interactions of the Arcane Fulcrum, together with the crafting we were doing.

What if we could create some kind of structure with a "Create a new Elemental whenever the Winds of Magic blow strongly enough" rune-combo on it?

Oh, that could be sweet!

(*Updated*)[ ] [Difficult] The Movement of Things Pt. 5b: [Cost: (14 -11) = 3 actions] Master of the Odd and Mind for Constructs will proc. Examining...the Construct, has given you ideas. It is not a Gronti, not truly, but it acts like one and is arguably even more versatile. It makes you wonder if perhaps there is a way to create Gronti of a similar shape and function.

We do have the Movement 5b tech tree to go down the research tree through.

A facility for creating more Elementals, or binding Elementals to Gronti, or binding Elementals to artifacts or items or to places or something.

Akazit, Movement 5b, Odd Wyrm's Blood, Siphoning, Windsight... so many things that could potentially converge in a long enough run... If we get Akazit and Elemental research and Wyrmblood and Windsight going, we might have the basis for an entire runic research university going.

That is, if we advance some of that research enough, I suspect that we might blow open a big enough field of magical and runic research, that we might be able to just point Khazagar at it and let the runesmiths go wild with researching it.

I'm not just enthused about the idea of discovering some new runes or knowledge and making something neat. I'm excited about the possibility that Snorri might break open an entire new field of research for runes; that that plus access to the Arcane Fulcrum, would give runesmiths so many things to investigate, that future runesmiths would have a ready-made source of a natural resource (and mystery and wonder) to poke at; and thanks to Snorri, they would have some of the tools to be able to usefully poke at it in a way that would let them achieve results.

And then if you have that -- if you have the people, if you have a convenient natural (supernatural?) phenomena, and if you have just enough tools and knowledge to let people explore and discover it on their own but not so much tools and knowledge that you already know all the answers -- then you've created the conditions for something priceless and amazing; the ability to just let runesmiths go wild researching stuff, and coming up with new advances all the time.

... Ironically, I think Vragni's lot might even be more applicable towards researching this odd stuff. Because of the fact that Vragni is all about doing many things and discovering many new things, rather than Snorri's approach of making so much stuff.

The idea that we might give validity and weight to Vragni's methods is amusing. If it happened it would be funny. Snorri would not only have given good argument that his methods were good and useful for the Karaz Ankor; he also would have given good argument that Vragni's method was good too. And it wouldn't be Vragni that would have done this. "Here, I proved the validity of your own philosophy for you."
There *is* a reason why Vrangi's institution will be such a perfect complement to Khazagar. His mindset and methods is perfect for building on the breakthroughs that Khazagar makes.
 
You want to give King Whitebeard something useful from Snorri?
We know exactly what he would want
Alric's Challenge
Create a method of reliable, quick and secure communication as possible. Reveal and gain 1 Standing with Alric Thungnisson, Angkra Twenty-loops, and Karaz a Karak
As a consequence of his frequent discussions with his venerable uncle, the mighty and wise Snorri Whitebeard, Alric has offered a prompt for any that wish to take it up. A way for messages to be shared across the realms faster than any Runebearer, safer than any road and as reliable as a Master Crafted axe. Such is the sort of goal, the sort of problem a proper Runelord should set their sights upon he reckons, anything less is beneath them.
E: NVM asked soulcake, not the correct sort of gift a runelord would be giving.
 
Last edited:
I really do think a possible solution to that could be found in the Direction/Transcriber combo. We'd need a lot more peripheral runic progress before I'd feel comfortable tackling that challenge head on though.
 
Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do that will solve that particular challenge any time soon - since that challenge is probably close to the capstone of light or diction and we are not anywhere near the end of either of those.
Do you remember how when we were initally discussing Gromril chain, and we broke down all of the different steps and in the end in the end we still got surprised that Snorri had all the tools so he got the reward. Not only that, but the solution was so easy that he has just assumed that other people have done it before however didn't spread the knowledge.
Well, we've been discussing the semaphore for a long time. And it seems like we might be overthinking the difficulty again.
What exactly are the issues that cannot be circumvented by doing a Vragni and making an apprentice make a relay tower in the middle to boost signal power or redirect it around a corner?
 
Well, we've been discussing the semaphore for a long time. And it seems like we might be overthinking the difficulty again.
What exactly are the issues that cannot be circumvented by doing a Vragni and making an apprentice make a relay tower in the middle to boost signal power or redirect it around a corner?
OOC we want a solution that is independent of physical infrastructure the time of woes would knock it offline.
 
Do you remember how when we were initally discussing Gromril chain, and we broke down all of the different steps and in the end in the end we still got surprised that Snorri had all the tools so he got the reward. Not only that, but the solution was so easy that he has just assumed that other people have done it before however didn't spread the knowledge.
Well, we've been discussing the semaphore for a long time. And it seems like we might be overthinking the difficulty again.
What exactly are the issues that cannot be circumvented by doing a Vragni and making an apprentice make a relay tower in the middle to boost signal power or redirect it around a corner?
Couple of things.

"A way for messages to be shared across the realms faster than any Runebearer, safer than any road and as reliable as a Master Crafted axe."

Semaphore is not reliable to this standard because it can be interrupted by weather, by monsters attacking the stations, by sickness or inability of the operators. The Underway can resolve weather, but not the other two, and the Underway does not extend everywhere - particularly East and smaller communities. Secondly, it is not reliable because malcontents can infiltrate the stations and stop messages, create fake messages, and confuse communication.

Its probably relatively safe to use, but does mean folks need to man the structures and put themselves at risk of harm. I think its faster than a runebearer, but also could be faster.

The magic mirrors of canon War of Vengeance meet the criteria above, because they are instant, safe to use, reliable, and don't need Underway connection so the East is much easier to bring into the system. The only thing that can puncture their reliability is a daemon or magic user shapeshifting into one of the speakers to send a false message (a problem the semaphore also has).
 
Last edited:
OOC we want a solution that is independent of physical infrastructure the time of woes would knock it offline.
We have multiple millenia to invent that and no plans to do so soon, time of woes isn't happening anytime soon and it seems like we could get a lot of value out of it in the meantime given that Light and Dictation are possibly the bottom of our priority list.

And I'm totally not opposed to solutions that only highlight the tragedy of the fall of dwarf society.
Couple of things.

"A way for messages to be shared across the realms faster than any Runebearer, safer than any road and as reliable as a Master Crafted axe."

Semaphore is not reliable to this standard because it can be interrupted by weather, by monsters attacking the stations, by sickness or inability of the operators. The Underway can resolve weather, but not the other two. Secondly, it is not reliable because malcontents can infiltrate the stations and stop messages, create fake messages, and confuse communication.

Its probably relatively safe to use, but does mean folks need to man the structures and put themselves at risk of harm. I think its faster than a runebearer, but also could be faster.

The magic mirrors of canon War of Vengeance meet the criteria above, because they are instant, safe to use, and reliable. The only thing that can puncture their reliability is a daemon or magic user shapeshifting into one of the speakers to send a false message (a problem the semaphore also has).
Notably none of those are rune issues. They're a problem of whatever guild manages the running of them in the long term. Is a Master Crafted axe no longer reliable if you hand it to a beardling?
Underway travel is pretty safe during this period of history, there are existing inns and travel stops and these presumably have their own defense mechanisms so attaching relays to them should be relatively safe. With proper redundancy we could make it so that multiple of these need to be destroyed at once to break the signal making it more secure anyway.

I agree the magic mirrors do fit the bill but that's irrelevant to if the semaphore also does.
 
Last edited:
I agree the magic mirrors do fit the bill but that's irrelevant to if the semaphore also does.
I don't think the Semaphore does, because it requires whatever guild manages it to put people in there who have to fight off whatever threats approach. Master, beardling, Grandmaster, whoever.

You have to put people in to guard it against tampering. That kind of logistical problem is notable for the High King, since being a King he has to actually pay attention to those kinds of problems, and doing it across the entire empire involves a shitload of people. Possibly the invention whole cloth of a new guild.

Additionally, communities that are not connected to the Underway are a problem I realized was relevant as I wrote. Communication is valuable, so it will obviously be attractive to community leaders not connected to the Underway - which means building on the surface and all the practical problems of Semaphore on the surface apply again.

Mirrors ain't got the problem of manpower, guilds, or reliability and safety. In a sense I am making an argument that Alric's request is for a runic solution that requires none of this infrastructural and guild and environmental shenanigans; a solely Rune based solution that simply works.
 
I don't think the Semaphore does, because it requires whatever guild manages it to put people in there who have to fight off whatever threats approach. Master, beardling, Grandmaster, whoever.

You have to put people in to guard it against tampering. That kind of logistical problem is notable for the High King, since being a King he has to actually pay attention to those kinds of problems, and doing it across the entire empire involves a shitload of people. Possibly the invention whole cloth of a new guild.

Additionally, communities that are not connected to the Underway are a problem I realized was relevant as I wrote. Communication is valuable, so it will obviously be attractive to community leaders not connected to the Underway - which means building on the surface and all the practical problems of Semaphore on the surface apply again.

Mirrors ain't got the problem of manpower, guilds, or reliability and safety. In a sense I am making an argument that Alric's request is for a runic solution that requires none of this infrastructural and guild and environmental shenanigans; a solely Rune based solution that simply works.
Seems like a real case of Perfection is the enemy of Good.
I don't care about mirrors, we can't make them. I agree they're a capstone, I agree they're very good. Ironically they're a worse long term solution because their requirement on Elven magic means they aren't reproducible after the War of Vengance. And those settlements that aren't underway connected couldn't afford a mirror anyway.
Do not explain why the Semaphore is worse, explain why it is insufficient to the requirements.


You skipped over my points about redundancy does infact make this safer than roads, but when we look at the requirements:
A) Faster than any Runebearer. Its not even disputed this plan beats that.
B) Safer than any road. It is at minimum as safe as the Underway, and probably far safer as it never needs physical travel between established safe points and some degree of redundancy in different routes/ being able to skip over relay towers means that it isn't dependent on single points of failure except at the very start and end.
B*) Overland its still safer than an overland road and when connecting to these smaller poorer communities the most important possible thing is that the item doesn't take a Runelord to make as they often don't even have journeymen present.
C) As reliable as a Master crafted axe. Uncertain until we test it however the anticipated unreliability's seem to be in the users not the mechanism.
 
I want to thank you for all the work you put in coming up with those plans. As much as I love this story, I know if I start trying to make plans, I'll start obsessing over it so I'm grateful that you spend so much time working on it.

(You as in multiple, even if I prefer english to my native language, that difference between you and you is something I find confusing for no reason.)
 
After looking through the rune list, I found that understanding M. Spite will take us literally 0 AP, and it makes sense for us to do it simultaneously with the design. So, plan makers, can you please alter your plans to include it?
 
Voting is open
Back
Top