[ ] Plan: Start with the Reason
-[ ] He's only got two accusations he's made, Trespassing and Thievery--and the latter requires him to admit that he's been supplying a hostile Felag with arms and armaments, since you've otherwise been very careful not to touch a damn thing that belongs to him, which means you can safely deny any such accusations as a fabrication. So he's going to start with Trespassing and try to use that to sow doubt as to your intentions. Time to counter that, and fortunately, you have an angle--after all, Horra shouldn't actually know when you trespassed unless he's gotten it from his daughter or his sanctum. If it's the former, you know she's not your friend, and if it's the latter, then he can't admit to having it, which means he has to lie about it.
-[ ] So, start with the tale of the curse upon Steinby. Bring out the Scorn-Pole, tell the tale of the spell that befell your father, the company that marched into the hills to find the source of the curse, the Troll that was guarding it. That you and your fellows unraveled the spell upon it, and when the Troll emerged later, that through clever words you brought it to believe that it had been betrayed by the one who offered it a 'Home' in this place, as long as it defended the Scorn-Pole--one that, you would note, made use of a horse head taken from the sireling of the prize winning horse Stronghoof, brought to a contest hosted by Runar by one Hasvir. Now, while it is entirely possible that this is a coincidence, or a false name, the fact that when you gave pursuit to the Troll you had outwitted, it led you straight to Horrby, and then was promptly struck down by Horra Hasvisson through a dagger bearing the power of the Sun, before being ground to dust by his son Hasvir, does strongly suggest a connection.
-[ ] Further Strategy and elaboration: Use the Scorn-Pole Incident as our inciting factor, leverage how the preponderance of evidence pointed towards Horra desiring to reignite a feud that had long been quiet, evade the Trespassing accusation by focusing on your pursuit of the troll and leaving the question of how much you actually learned there up in the air. Straight up deny any accusations of thievery because we didn't take a damned thing--except in the case of the ballista, in which case, explain that you acquired this on a shipment going to the camp of Jordan Sharkmouth and his Felag, bandits who have been menacing the people of the north. Explain the make of the ballista, the discoveries you and Sten made of it and its likely origins, and then draw a connection between a short fellow wreathed in shadows discussing matters with him, and the sudden infusion of sun-infused armaments currently being wielded by the Lurkalings, Sun Infused weapons that you yourself witnessed Horra wielding. Isn't that something how dwarf-designed weapons are appearing from his workshops, while weapons no dwarf could hope to forge are appearing in a war in the deeps. Why, it's almost like they're meddling in each other's politics

I meant On Discord, sorry, there's no Secret Cabal aside from DMs. But here's the revision.

Long story short, @Imperial Fister , is it still Trespassing if you're pursuing a Troll and it happens to run onto someone else's property?
 
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The problem is, if we take the blame for several farmhands dying we could get outlawed. That's certainly much worse then the trespassing and theft charge he'll throw at us. I could see a 3 year outlawing happening. We can both be found guilty. I do think it's important that we bring up the troll, but it could go very badly. I'd even say it's be our most important roll in the trial.m and should use more Odr then our first roll.

How can we be blamed for the actions of a troll? We didn't tell it to go and smash up Horra's farm - it did that all on it's own. I don't see how they can outlaw us for not killing a troll... it is a troll, after all.
 
Remember, we're not arguing with Horra. We're not going to nail him down to a confession like Perry Mason. We play to the judges. This is a really common trap to fall into in court. He will not admit guilt. He will say bullshit. We counter it. That's the game.

We definitely don't cop to guilt for farmhands. That wasn't us, it was the troll.
 
Hey Imperial, it's a slight stretch, but might we have recognized any of the draugr as being any of the dead farmhands?
You weren't looking at the faces of the farmhands, so you wouldn't be able to tell.
Long story short, @Imperial Fister , is it still Trespassing if you're pursuing a Troll and it happens to run onto someone else's property?
'Pursuing' is a delicate word to use, especially if you just stood around and watched the troll go to town
 
You weren't looking at the faces of the farmhands, so you wouldn't be able to tell.

'Pursuing' is a delicate word to use, especially if you just stood around and watched the troll go to town

So, basically, it's not really a viable option because we didn't stay close enough to stop it from causing damage, huh? Which means that at the end of the day, there's no way to admit any of our evidence without admitting we trespassed?
 
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'Pursuing' is a delicate word to use, especially if you just stood around and watched the troll go to town
Is it still trespassing if you were just following it from the air? The context was "it was put in touch with the seller by another troll" so naturally that bears investigation. Who knows what else this self-described real estate agent would offer that wasnt his to sell?
 
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Speculation isn't lying. Only speaking deliberate falsehoods is. Anyone who's seen a Congressional Hearing could tell you that so long as wiggle room exists against consequence, the bullshit can flow endlessly.
Congressional Hearings are from very different societies that are more rule-oriented, more bureaucratic, less personal, accustomed to any case having a potential appeal to a different court that'll re-argue for weeks, and a legal system with separation of power all over the place, e.g. judges aren't allowed to bring charges, that's the prosecutor's job.

This is nine barbarians who are accustomed to personally resolving things and hold a great deal of personal decisionmaking power, and who expect the trial to be over today. If Horra tries to endlessly bullshit them, I figure their reaction is going to be something like "Stop stalling, or else".
 
Like I suggested with my plan, we could just force a vote on Trespassing early, bifurcate the issue. Put up an extravagant amount of silver which we plan on taking back from his corpse anyways. Then get to the meat.
 
How can we be blamed for the actions of a troll? We didn't tell it to go and smash up Horra's farm - it did that all on it's own. I don't see how they can outlaw us for not killing a troll... it is a troll, after all.

We did choose to send it after whoever did it. The troll killed people, people who likely had nothing to do with the scorn pole, on the way there and it was only there because of us. We didn't know it'd go to a farm full of civilians, but it did. We also did not stop it as it was killing the farmhands.
What if the troll went to the town? What if it passed through another farm on the way there? We need to make sure that we can't be blamed for indirectly leading to the deaths of several farmhands.
This is probably what Horra will use to nail us or bring us down with him so we should expect it.
 
[X] Plan: Start with the Reason
-[X] Enhance Argument with Fight for your Life
-[X] He's only got two accusations he's made, Trespassing and Thievery--and the latter requires him to admit that he's been supplying a hostile Felag with arms and armaments, since you've otherwise been very careful not to touch a damn thing that belongs to him, which means you can safely deny any such accusations as a fabrication. So he's going to start with Trespassing and try to use that to sow doubt as to your intentions. Time to counter that, and fortunately, you have an angle--after all, Horra shouldn't actually know when you trespassed unless he's gotten it from his daughter or his sanctum. If it's the former, you know she's not your friend, and if it's the latter, then he can't admit to having it, which means he has to lie about it.
-[X] So, start with the tale of the curse upon Steinby. Bring out the Scorn-Pole, tell the tale of the spell that befell your father, the company that marched into the hills to find the source of the curse, the Troll that was guarding it. That you and your fellows unraveled the spell upon it, and when the Troll emerged later, that through clever words you brought it to believe that it had been betrayed by the one who offered it a 'Home' in this place, as long as it defended the Scorn-Pole--one that, you would note, made use of a horse head taken from the sireling of the prize winning horse Stronghoof, brought to a contest hosted by Runar by one Hasvir. Now, while it is entirely possible that this is a coincidence, or a false name, the fact that when you sent your Fylgja to follow the Troll you had outwitted, it led you straight to Horrby, and then was promptly struck down by Horra Hasvisson through a dagger bearing the power of the Sun, before being ground to dust by his son Hasvir, does strongly suggest a connection.
-[X] Further Strategy and elaboration: Use the Scorn-Pole Incident as our inciting factor, leverage how the preponderance of evidence pointed towards Horra desiring to reignite a feud that had long been quiet, evade the Trespassing accusation by focusing on your following of the troll and leaving the question of how much you actually learned there up in the air, a technicality you can damn well argue. Straight up deny any accusations of thievery because we didn't take a damned thing--except in the case of the ballista, in which case, explain that you acquired this on a shipment going to the camp of Jordan Sharkmouth and his Felag, bandits who have been menacing the people of the north. Explain the make of the ballista, the discoveries you and Sten made of it and its likely origins, and then draw a connection between a short fellow wreathed in shadows discussing matters with him, and the sudden infusion of sun-infused armaments currently being wielded by the Lurkalings, Sun Infused weapons that you yourself witnessed Horra wielding. Isn't that something how dwarf-designed weapons are appearing from his workshops, while weapons no dwarf could hope to forge are appearing in a war in the deeps. Why, it's almost like they're meddling in each other's politics.

Final revision should clear it up. Basically, we evade the trespassing accusation by telling the Scorn Pole story and that we followed the Troll there--observing a clear and present danger after all is just good sense. That it happened to intersect with Horra's property and we saw things? Well, that can't be helped now, can it?

The rest is largely unchanged.

Like, he can still hammer on the Trespassing bit, but he's wasting time and energy on that, as well as potentially exposing an Actual Fucking Lie in the process if he discovered it somehow from the Sanctum.
 
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We did choose to send it after whoever did it. The troll killed people, people who likely had nothing to do with the scorn pole, on the way there and it was only there because of us. We didn't know it'd go to a farm full of civilians, but it did. We also did not stop it as it was killing the farmhands.
What if the troll went to the town? What if it passed through another farm on the way there? We need to make sure that we can't be blamed for indirectly leading to the deaths of several farmhands.
This is probably what Horra will use to nail us or bring us down with him so we should expect it.

"Good heavens, Sir Troll!" It's doubtful that it even knows what 'Sir' truly means, but it seems to get the gist of it, judging by the pleased expression. Its lips curl back in what can only be described as an attempt at a hole-filled, yellow-stained smile. "What happened to you? Who could have done this?"

You're laying it on thick, too thick. But, as the troll's so-called smile spreads ever-further — its mouth is far wider than your shoulders, you realize with a slight shudder — that doesn't seem to matter.

It opens its mouth and a near-visible miasma of foul odors pour forth. A fly follows, buzzing confused around the hill as the troll begins to speak, its voice like a beached whale's last call. "Hello sweet thing."

You swallow the bile creeping up your throat. It burns as you force it back down, tears wetting the corners of your eyes. Breathing in through the nose and slowly exhaling through the mouth, you force your stammering heart back into a steady rhythm.

Its eyes gleam with bursts of lust as you have to repeat yourself, it seemingly having forgotten the words you spoke not one minute before. "I say again, what happened to you? Do you know who could have done this?"
(Hugr (Silver-Tongue): 6x6, 5x3, 4x9, 3x3, 2x3, 1x4)23+1(Beautiful)=24 Successes
The troll frowns, a needed respite from the greedy grin it had been sporting. "A sneaky sort..." it trails off as connections spark in the molasses-like mire of its mind. Its breathing hitches as anger begins growing yet again in its exposed chest. "Like the man who sold me the hill!"

Before you can ask any further questions, the troll yanks an arm away from a group of spikes. Bloody threads of gore link wounds to iron as the troll, in a fit of anger, rams its fist back into the forest of pointed iron. It fails to show any sign of pain as it impales itself once again.

Roaring, it flails hard enough to dislodge the spikes from the packed dirt. Flinging itself up and out of the hole, it stands there like some kind of demented hedgehog as it seethes and clenches its fists over and over again.

Seeing the chance before you, you pull back the proverbial rod and go fishing.

"The man who sold you the hill? Who could that be?"
(Hugr (Silver-Tongue): 6x5, 5x5, 4x1, 3x3, 2x1, 1x7)16+1(Beautiful)=17 Successes
The troll actually pauses in its anger to consider your words. The grindstones in its mind are hard at work processing your question. Its sharply jutting underbite works up and down as it attempts to 'think.' "Drysalt put me in contact with him."

"Drysalt?" You're starting to push your luck, that much is clear. Eventually, the troll will resume its anger and, hopefully, take it out on the hapless Horra.

"Strange yellow eyes. Very untroll-like behavior." And with that, the troll huffs and turns away. "Be back for you."
For reference, our convo with the troll. We barely told it anything, certainly not to go kill Horra.
 
Like I suggested with my plan, we could just force a vote on Trespassing early, bifurcate the issue. Put up an extravagant amount of silver which we plan on taking back from his corpse anyways. Then get to the meat.
Its the expected and obvious counter to such a move. Horras an ambush predator. Let him burn through his prep on something that doesn't matter, only to reveal "Yes, I did trespass. And here's what I found." will leave him bereft of resources.

This is a battle. Stamina matters. If Horra has to waste time and energy arguing over what the definition of "trespassing" even is, then that's already a major advantage for our part.
 
Well, that helps a lot, it means we should be operating at 12 autos now, which should help compensate for Horra's higher base pool, especially since his Bonus is going to start fading over the course of the trial as his HUGE PILE OF MONEY starts being less important.

It's a fair fight friends! Which is pretty good when you consider that he's got two generations on Halla and stacked the deck hard with ALL THE MONEY.

EDIT: Re-reading it, I like how the Lawspeaker looked at our opening arguments, and grinned. He's very much looking forward to this absolute shitshow that's going to be unleashed, given how powerful the opening arguments were.
 
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[X] Plan: Start with the Reason

Maybe add our Fight Of Our Life bonus as well? If his bonus successes are gonna be gradually ticking down on future rolls this might be the roll for that.
 
[X] Plan: Start with the Reason

Maybe add our Fight Of Our Life bonus as well? If his bonus successes are gonna be gradually ticking down on future rolls this might be the roll for that.

Hmm.

You know what? Sure.

EDIT: Actually, nevermind, maybe 2 Odr? This scene is critical, so we shouldn't be too stingy with it, and we want to save our big rig for the critical reveal.
 
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For reference, our convo with the troll. We barely told it anything, certainly not to go kill Horra.
...The namedrop of "drysalt" just makes shit even funnier, because you don't even have to BRING UP Horra or a human element in the first place! Just mention "drysalt" putting the course of events in motion, and saying that its identity and location remain a mystery, even now.
 
Hmm.

You know what? Sure.

EDIT: Actually, nevermind, maybe 2 Odr? This scene is critical, so we shouldn't be too stingy with it, and we want to save our big rig for the critical reveal.

I was thinking we use the +5 dice (which averages about the same as 3-4 Odr, but is much swingier and can even be bad) here and save the Odr to throw another big pile on the big reveal (which seems better to avoid swinginess and instead just use extra successes on).
 
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