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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Thoughts:
  • Canvass can differentiate populations by their diet. He should try to remember how the hostile ninja smelled and we should inform Asuma of this capability, for future cross-testing.
  • Lost seals:
    • Asuma should know the capabilities of the Seals that Akane had, if not the blueprints or even the names.
    • It is too risky and too little in our interest to share said seals with Leaf as a whole, but we should seriously think about proliferating them among the Nara (who definitely have the capability to keep secrets) and the Yamanaka (mind readers can hunt down leaks like no other).
    • We can ask for secret seals or techniques in return, with the understanding that they don't have to be of equivalent strength, just something indisputably useful. Things they risk the proliferation of whenever one of their ninja does a mission that risks capture.
    • We need to speak more with the Clan Head of the Akamichi. Actually get their mettle. We might want to trade power multipliers with our closest allies as long as they stay mutually a secret. The Akamichi are the closest allies of our closest allies. Over the long run (generations) they are the most likely to have access to any combat secrets we share with the other two.
    • Ask Mari and Noburi about all this. Mari knows the political feasibility. Noburi is our Clan heir (and the one most likely to have children of his own the soonest) and should be involved in this IMO.
  • When we recant our threat we should do it in the name of the Will of Fire and by the wisdom of the Hokage. We should generally look into what the traditional wording of such a recanting is. We can't be the only Clan in Leaf history that unilaterally recanted threats by order of the Hokage. Who do we ask about this? Mari, Kei, Asuma?
  • Speaking of children, how many Gokētsu children below the age of chakra aptitude discovery are there? What are the odds that one of them will have the aptitude, given they are Leaf-born and might have varying levels of closeby ninja ancestry?
  • How do other Leaf clans handle Clan Head inheritance? We often hear about Clan Elders being involved. But what we typically see is primogeniture except in cases where the eldest child of the current Clan Head proves unable or unwilling. This does not seem anywhere close to optimal. But neither does democracy, even if only votes of chūnin and above count. Especially not in a Clan that is as adoption-heavy as ours. Uplift would not endure for long.
    • I ask because these chapters have reminded me of mortality. Hazō is a cutting edge seal researcher planning an expedition to the afterlife sooner rather than later. He lives in a compound with probably the largest concentration of sealing apprentices in Leaf. And he occasionally fights dragons. Noburi is the current heir. No questions. But what then? What if Noburi has a 12 year old genin by the day he dies?
Those sure were some thoughts .
 
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Korporati said:
I never see anywhere where Hazou character development is synonymous with being loyal to Leaf when it stands against uplift. In fact, many of the things we did have always tread the line between treason and not-treason. In fact, that has always been our thing. Also, there is no character development either of us not being protective of the team uplift above everyone else. I mean, we spend a lot of our early years being missing nin and only relying on each other. Havent you seen our reaction when hagaromo first try to find conflict with us?
I would be happy if you can point me to these developments.
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The character development isn't Hazou starting to care less about our team, but him learning not to casually commit treason when he expresses his protective instincts for his team.

Hazou is still willing to go "pretty damn far" but he isn't so dense as to say that out loud in front of Asuma or other political rivals of ours anymore.

Korporati said:
Yes you just demonstrated my point. Our main purpose and Hazou's entire thing have always been uplift. Hell, we are even called team uplift. Leaf interest is not, and will never the main point of our interest. Uplift is the thing most important to us, not leaf.
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Till and fills are the best example of the synergy of combining Uplift ideals with Leaf bureaucracy.

We have made major improvements to civilian lives through the utilization of official Leaf resources.

We do not have to choose between the two as long as we find ways to unite them.

Korporati said:
At best, what you are suggesting is a fusion on both leaf supremacy and uplift, which would require the conjoining of both ideals. It does not however, start with giving our most powerful advantage over Leaf. I suppose i would consider it a decent idea if an such an arragnement ever takes place. But again, it certainly doesnt involve giving Asuma the key to our power when we still have none. Also, "if we are to avoid unnecessary ideological fighting between Uplift and Leaf's native culture" doesnt explain anything; Are we gonna abandon our uplift ideas when it contradicts leaf's? Or is it the other way around? You like to say that the ones who are in favor of hoarding foom has no concrete plan, yet there is no clear, concise plan to do your plan without relying on the "leap of faith" and "goodness" of Asuma completely. This is a simulationist world, not disneyland :V
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We will continue to FOOM so our rate of growth will not be affected. It is absurd to have a subordinate try to subvert his superior's power while Hazou!pilot has earnestly claimed multiple times he is loyal to Asuma.

If Asuma really becomes so horrible after learning about FOOM that we find him intolerable as a leader Noburi has the ability to simply abscond to Toad territory on the 7th path until Asuma either chills out or is replaced. I really don't expect this to happen but it is a potential back up plan

We will have to be patient and make good arguments for our positions in Uplift whenever conflicts with the Will of Fire as the Will is currently experience disagreements. This is still preferable to trying to completely replace the one unifying ideology within the country we live in with our own, not that different in the first place, ideology.

I find this to be roughly as much risk as when we originally gave Skywalkers to Leaf. The stakes are high but the potential rewards are too.

Korporati said:
Also, I like to raise this point about Asuma giving us a reward and completely going through our plan assumption that this whole foom plan relies on. Especially since it likely leave us disadvantaged as we have no advantage anymore.
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Could you rephrase this please? I am not sure what you are trying to say with these two sentences.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
I might write my ideal version of the speech as an omake. I think that nailing the speech is pretty important - ideally IMO we'd be able to write a separate plan for it.

[X] Action Plan: Life Carries On
Word count: <300 (not currently but I'll cut it down)
  • Timeline: <48 hours.
  • Back in Leaf:
    • Schedule an announcement. Write a speech. Sanity-check it with Kei, Shikamaru, Kagome, and Mari. Run it by Asuma and the KEI.
  • The speech:
    • Familyname Manato, Familyname Nanao, Familyname Mami, and Goketsu Akane are missing, presumed dead. You are heartbroken: Leaf is poorer by four outstanding ninja taken far too soon. You know that they touched many lives. You will be making time over the next few days to meet with their families and friends - to mourn, and share stories.
    • While all of their deaths represent tragedies, you were particularly close to Akane. She was courageous, kind, and held the Will of Fire in her heart.
    • You wish to honour her, but first, you must make an apology. In your grief, you threatened the Hagoromo with annihilation. You unreservedly recant your words. Akane would expected no less. She has returned to the Will of Fire, but she remains in your heart. You will not disappoint her.
    • You will be endowing the Team Akane Seal Bank. Every Leaf shinobi who visits will be issued a storage seal and three explosive tags at no cost. When they are consumed or wear out, they will be replaced. You ask that only those who have need of such seals avail themselves of the bank, but you encourage all those who have need to reach out. You ask only that they think of Akane, Manato, Nanoa, and Mami when they use the seals. This will be a Goketsu initiative, although you encourage any capable sealmasters to contribute.
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Yeah no that would absolutely get abused mercilessly by damn near everybody, if we want to do something like that, we'll want to make it like a monthly stipend thing or something.

Maybe Hazou can give every shinobi in Leaf one of his high grade Goo-bomb seals once a month, that should be massively helpful for all of the Leaf's Genin and Chunin, and isn't even all that major of a time investment for Hazou all things considered.
 
Ronike said:
We... should be careful with Jashin I think in this. Hazou pilot specifically noted that its probably not what Akane would want, and its definitely not taking Hazou in a mentally healthy direction. Hidan possibly, but Jashin maybe not?
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Population growth increases murders. Civilian empowerment equalizes access to being a murderer. Technology that doesn't need ninjutsu allows more people to mass murder. Such are our offerings to Jashin. Praise Jashin.
Dictator4Hire said:
To state my objection succinctly: HOW???
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How? Really? I point to Tsunade who repeatedly pushes through hospital policies and who just up and leaves whenever she personally feels like Leaf is safe enough by her standards. I point to Orochimaru who gets paid taxes in ninja lives. I point to Jiraiya who claimed the hat by force for the short term. You can do things without doing a coup. Even if that last example actually was a coup (though with a term limit and during a succession crisis).

Asuma is a weak Hokage, propped up by plentiful allies and S-rankers not interested in the job. Remember how he talked about not being able to intervene in our Orochimaru crisis because he couldn't risk a "how about no" and neither could he lose face by going to Tsunade or Naruto to drag them around and make them be his "how about yes"? Imagine if Coordinator Nara Kei is the one he can't confront or if Gokētsu Hazō is the one he has to weigh wether to ask to intervene for him.
And one day he will die. If it is very soon then Lord Akamichi will be the next one. Otherwise it will be Naruto. Naruto is an S-ranker himself and not one that will take any bullshit from us just due to our power level. Still, S-rank power means we can do S-rank things for Leaf personally and visibly and that buys us political power, because that's how Leaf culture works.


As for Hashirama, Pain, Yagura all three of them realized a part of their vision or got close to it. Hashirama more than anyone. We stand on the shoulders of this giant. Pain almost won. It was really fucking close. Yagura did many things wrong and was optimizing for things we don't agree with, but I wouldn't be surprised if Water civilians have more rights than Fire civilians to this day, especially in the cities. Ninja feared being reported by civilians in Mist. This is much less true in Leaf.

Remember, no one here is ever talking about bullying or violently overthrowing a democracy. There are no democracies in the Elemental Nations. Sarutobi Asuma was elected by less than 20 mostly hereditary leaders of the higher nobility among the population of superhumans that rule the land by force. Team Uplift only plays along in these power structures insofar it serves their interests and the interests of their friends. If we balk away from the more unsavory methods of this system even when it genuinely serves Uplift then we are hypocrites, because every time Hazō goes to a Council vote he already shits on everyone that is currently being crushed under the boots of the status quo.
 
We need to tell Akane's parents. And we also need to ensure that they don't have to worry about money for a little bit. They deserve time to grieve, too.

Edit: ninja'd.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
Schedule an announcement. Write a speech. Sanity-check it with Kei, Shikamaru, Kagome, and Mari. Run it by Asuma and the KEI.
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I have a medium preference to making the recanting of our threat very dry and very adherent to Leaf traditions.
FaintlySorcerous said:
You will be endowing the Team Akane Seal Bank. Every Leaf shinobi who visits will be issued a storage seal and three explosive tags at no cost. When they are consumed or wear out, they will be replaced. You ask that only those who have need of such seals avail themselves of the bank, but you encourage all those who have need to reach out. You ask only that they think of Akane, Manato, Nanoa, and Mami when they use the seals. This will be a Goketsu initiative, although you encourage any capable sealmasters to contribute.
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Can we truly afford this? I do not know the underlying demographics. Also I do not trust all the other Clans to not use this as a tool to squeeze us.

More importantly, I don't see how this is much better than flooding the market with said seals. If the price doesn't change then poor ninja will just be encouraged to sell them, as they were previously discouraged from buying them. What might make more sense is to endow mission offices with them to be given to any ninja who says they'd like them for the mission, with their use or wearing out having to be noted in mission reports. This way we protect against malfeasance at least a bit and use honor and culture as safeguards.

Even more importantly, how much does this cut into Necromancy research time? Are estate sealsmiths productive enough on their own.

It also feels a bit gauche and fake to do this in Akane's name, but that might just be me.

FaintlySorcerous said:
The Goketsu are not, under any circumstances, to take any action against the Hagoromo. Akane wouldn't want it. It ties Asuma's hands. Zero tolerance.
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I hope you mean any violent/lethal/threatening action. All Clans in Leaf engage in low scale economic and propaganda warfare against each other. We should not stop that unilaterally.
Black King said:
[X] N for Necromancy
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Uuhh...

We at the very least have to obey the Hokage's direct orders and officially recant our threat. As I said before, my preference is doing that dryly and leaning on Leaf traditions, while emphasizing through subtext how the Hokage is making us do this but that we agree with his judgement.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
FOOM, while it would keep our team safe, is not enough on its own to safeguard Uplift as a self perpetuating ideology. No matter how personally strong Yagura ever was he still had dissent in Mist working against him because those dissidents did not believe in nor aspire to his insane idea of utopia.
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I did say we should create a better stable equilibrium, not continuously coerce people into playing along with our antics. The only difference from your position, I think, is that I believe it'd be easier and better to create it by unilateral action.
The best way to prove our argument that Uplift and the Will of Fire are synonymous is the action of giving FOOM to Asuma. It demonstrates far more than any other act that we are fully committed to Leaf's best interests because we believe that Leaf will in turn help us achieve our social goals.
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... we believe that?

I don't think Leaf is aligned with our interests. It's more aligned than any other polity in the setting, sure, but that's not saying much. Leaf, as a culture, is still actively xenophobic, it would actively want bad things for e. g. Rock-nin (instead of passively not minding bad things happening to them); the ideals of Leaf enforced upon the world in an unconstrained manner would be a pretty bad outcome. Consider also the Hagoromo and their ilk, which likewise represent a significant part of Leaf's culture.

Inasmuch as we let Leaf sway the shape of the future, Leaf will use whatever influence we give it to move that future away from universal-utopia to its preferred biased-utopia. Thus, all else equal, inviting Leaf to the negotiation table is strictly negative.

To be more concrete, imagine Asuma. Imagine that, okay, we managed to sway him wholly away from the worst parts of Leaf's culture, that he's now onboard with utopia-for-everyone. He still respects other clans and Leaf's traditions, however. He would not authorize us to run roughshod over them, to introduce changes too fast, to risk offending his friends; he'd be betraying them by telling us to go ahead and not warning them, so he won't do that. And in the meantime, as we wait for the society to adjust, a few thousands civilians more will die to something preventable.

This is what we'd be inviting by cutting Leaf in, and in exchange for... what? What exactly do we want from Leaf/Asuma, that they'll only provide us if we give them FOOM? More shinies? Unless there's a bunch of Scrolls or such artifacts somewhere in storage, that won't be too useful. Our bottleneck on getting stronger is XP rate, not access to techniques/etc. Seals? We already mostly have full access, we've probably mined out all sealing notes available, and can probably request access to whatever we haven't seen citing the Dragonwar needs. Uplift-adjacent reforms? We can probably buy that by selling the Tower MARS or some other seal we're yet to invent.

What would we be paying for?
I believe it would be faster in the long run to stand alongside Asuma, Naruto, Tsunade, and more Leaf S rankers by convincing them to support Uplift rather than to go it alone (or at least try to lead by) ourselves.
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The ninja culture respects power and doesn't put much stock into ideals or customs. Our ability to get them to go along with our interests is directly proportional to our ability to out-punch them. Imagine if we were a powerless civilian, and we've somehow convinced them we know some secret to ultimate power. Would they have agreed to the deal where they allocate 50% of the future to our values, if we refused to share under any other circumstances? No: they would've just Yamanaka'd it out of us. As a chuunin, we'd get only slightly better treatment: there would still be an implicit undercurrent of "don't push your luck too far, or else". As a group of S-rankers? They would agree to a worse-for-themselves deal, because it wouldn't be implicit that they're only humoring our demands based on politeness and aesthetic appreciation of acting civilized.

Unlike Ami, these people are not LDT agents. They won't agree on a distribution of gains from trade reflecting the-power-dynamics-that-would-have-been-if-we-kept-FOOM-secret-and-approached-you-later; they'll use the current power dynamics to decide on the distribution, and this means we can't approach them now and start cooperating with them now to a mutually beneficial outcome, and it sucks, but it is what it is.

If it were otherwise, Asuma would've stood with us against Orochimaru even if Leaf burned as the result. He didn't; he let the ideals of what it means to be Leaf be swayed by practical considerations. I believe that told us everything we needed to know.
 
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RandomOTP said:
Did we use the Banshee Seal, or have Neji look for a skytower using our telescope?
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You did, yes.

RandomOTP said:
Wouldn't Flame Aura failing ruin the seals Akane kept on her?
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Reminder, even being hit by 3x Daizen lightning attacks only destroyed 8 out of Hazou's 400ish carried seals. The vast majority of his seals were fine.
eaglejarl said:
Now, of course, we get to the fun part: Hazō's seals have just been hit by lightning. He's carrying (checks character sheet) 436 seals. I'm going to give each of them a 0.5% chance of being damaged, meaning on a roll of 1-5 on a d1000 they will be destroyed.

[...]

Wow, only two failures from the first tendril. [...more rolls...] Five from the second. [...more rolls...] One from the third. Which ones? [...rolls and counting...]
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faflec said:
Also, wouldn't that cause a bazillion seal failures that would have had catastrophic effects on the surrounding environment and beyond?
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...which in turn caused only two sealing failures.
eaglejarl said:
Checking for seal failure...

Ooooooh. This should be fun. The Earth Dome and the Directional Explosives (Wide-Cone) both failed.
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Shrooms said:
reposting some stuff from discord: I think seals burning and getting wet can cause failure but almost never do. For example, when people pile up hundreds of explosive seals, most of them don't go off at the same time and so many of them are just blown up
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acidshill said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped What does Hazō think about the plausibility of Akane self-immolating with Flame Aura, and this not causing any sealing failures detectable a week later? If you can't answer this now, can we declare that Hazō rolled Sealing to assess this and/or search for signs of a sealing failure near the site of the battle?
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It seems quite possible that Flame Aura backlash wouldn't cause a sealing failure, and even if it did, some sealing failures wouldn't leave traces. Empirically, there are no signs of a sealing failure.

_The_Bomb said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Haven't done a deep dive (saving that for a reaction post) but it appears the Asuma section implemented is radically different from the plan. Similarly, the Cannai scene was completely cut despite the potential impact it had on Hazō's subsequent search.

Was there any stated reason for these divergences, such as failing a Resolve Roll for keeping our temper in check?
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As indicated in Chapter 589, Hazou was quite angry. He got around to the plan lines in the end. I didn't have time for a Cannai scene, and Cannai has no magic "find-Akane" ninjutsu that he's keeping up his purely metaphorical sleeve.

Could Hazou have used his incredible willpower to stay in control? Perhaps. Did he want to? Definitely not.

Black King said:
@Velorien @eaglejarl @Paperclipped where would I put the description of the seals? In another post and link it?
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That's fine.
 
Not to be a downer, but Akane probably died in large part due to a lack of Awareness - to spot the ambushers. And Reusable Rocket Boots - to fight them off. So I commit to voting for all plans that research the following.

  • Seal Research
    • Use Shadow Clones, invoke if Hazou thinks it will make the difference between finishing on this research roll or taking another one.
    • Directional explosives
      • Use SSA, eschew prep, reroll -9/-12 on Calligraphy
    • Macerators V4.0.2
      • Do one prep day to gauge difficulty
    • Rocket boots
      • Follow SOP
    • Banshee Lovers
      • Use SSA, eschew prep, reroll -9/-12 on Calligraphy
 
Sir Stompy said:
Not to be a downer, but Akane probably died in large part due to a lack of Awareness - to spot the ambushers. And Reusable Rocket Boots - to fight them off. So I commit to voting for all plans that research the following.

  • Seal Research
    • Use Shadow Clones, invoke if Hazou thinks it will make the difference between finishing on this research roll or taking another one.
    • Directional explosives
      • Use SSA, eschew prep, reroll -9/-12 on Calligraphy
    • Macerators V4.0.2
      • Do one prep day to gauge difficulty
    • Rocket boots
      • Follow SOP
    • Banshee Lovers
      • Use SSA, eschew prep, reroll -9/-12 on Calligraphy
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How many words is that?
 
charlesrwest said:
How many words is that?
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61, please feel free to cut it some. And don't use the whole thing if Hazou won't run out of seals to research.

The important part is that we don't start researching a bunch of random seals that aren't going to help our people survive. RRBs need to be our #1 priority, then improved macerators, then improved awareness. After that we can start the Minoto chain again.
 
faflec said:
We should do a second seance to confirm that Akane's dead.

Actually, we should also do a seance on someone who's alive so we can confirm that we can differentiate between living and dead beings.
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Inb4 Jashin just instantiates a person in naraka for us to look at, based on the memories of the people that remembered them. Trying this with a living person results in a full clone appearing in Naraka.
 
Sir Stompy said:
61, please feel free to cut it some. And don't use the whole thing if Hazou won't run out of seals to research.

The important part is that we don't start researching a bunch of random seals that aren't going to help our people survive. RRBs need to be our #1 priority, then improved macerators, then improved awareness. After that we can start the Minoto chain again.
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My plan is fairly short duration wise. Could I just add the rocket boots?
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
[X] Action Plan: Life Carries On
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Velorien said:
He gave a put-upon sigh. "How troublesome. Well, Murakumo lived in a time of war, and he wanted to tell people that their protective impulses were right and proper in and of themselves, but that taking them too far led to everybody getting hurt, and risked destroying everything in the end, like a wildfire annihilating a forest."

Unseen behind the minders, Keiko's eyebrow twitched.

"Of course," Nara went on, "he was just some minor philosopher without any real influence, so when he died his writings were lost for centuries. Then when the First Hokage was founding Leaf, he decided to make the Will of Fire its foundation. He thought that uniting the Fire Country clans into one village would allow them to protect what was important instead of constantly fighting with each other."
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I would highly recommend including Murakumo's original interpretation of the Will of Fire in your speech: it gives clarity to why we are deciding to recant on our vengeance against the Hagoromo without stating outright that it's because the Hokage told us no. Also makes us look like the good guys in that we are choosing to follow the Will of Fire (unlike those stinkin' Hagoromo who chose petty vengeance over following the Will of Fire).
 
I'll get around to voting tonight, but my input for things I'd like to see in a plan:

-Short plan duration. The Dragonwar summit is FINALLY getting underway. We still need to actually see that start to roll out. Doing a short plan on the human path is okay, and Akane deserves at least a full plan of consequences, it's definitely where Hazou's focus is, but the more time we put towards a plan now, the more we're missing on the 7th path.

-Hold off on the seal bank right now. It sucks, but we need to think about logistics. Hazou is doing double duty of clan head and dragon war. We want Kagome to go all in on necromancy research. And the other sealsmiths (remember, we did recently lose one, as well as a large stockpile of our storage seals during the October failure) are also doing most of our required monthly submissions. If all we gave away was 4 seals (1 storage and 3 explosion), to 300 ninja, that would still take us 100 straight hours of work. Doable, but not a thing to announce until we were almost ready, since we can't commit to not being too busy right now, so it would be better to start building that stockpile. Also, this is totally the type of thing to work with the KEI on.

- Tell the clan what probably happened. And tell Akane's parents. Ourselves. We owe them that much. Especially to check in on them, after her mom got hurt. We make sure they're taken care of for life, full stop.

-We grieve, with Ino, with the clan, and separately. I think an Ino scene would be very cathartic, and she deserves at least that much. She's hurting too. And she's been being there for us more than we have been for her. And she sounds very Broken. The separate Akane grief could be the Jade statue formation while we just sit and feel and think on our feelings.

-Issue that retraction Asuma asked for, saying we believe in leaf Justice. We've already seen that Naruto (who liked Akane and trained with her) is investigating (even if that's metagaming a bit), and we know he doesn't exactly love the Hags. So at least we know that progress is being made on that front. We're trusting Asuma to hold his word here, and I think we need to trust him, for him to properly come down hard on the Hags (or more likely, let Naruto take the lead slapping them).

Let's be real: we called Asuma ineffective to his face, said we'd be justified in potential annihilation without knowing the full context, and had Kagome arguably desert for a hot second to come out to see us. Asuma didn't jonin aura us, retroactively gave Kagome an out, and offered us advice and empathy. I'm not saying there aren't strategic decisions for that as well. I am, however, saying that Asuma is sympathetic For The Moment, mad at the loss of such a strong asset as a ruler, and ticked at losing Akane (who he knew better than your average chunin, at least) to either incompetence or malice. He can't be seen favoring us so much that he lets us to vigilante here. He can, however, absolutely nail the Hags in a way that doesn't backlash the way that us doing so would.

I'd write up a plan, but I do not have the time to optimize and maintain for the next day I'm afraid. And we already have so many plans 😅
 
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