Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
Say what you mean.
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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Hashirama created ninja villages. His peace extends throughout the Elemental Nations and continues 'til this day.
- Location
- how about no
Jiraiya behaved rationally when he found us and gave us a mission rather than straight up execute us.
Through mostly peaceful means we were able to keep the majority of the inhabitants in Isan alive while still getting the Pangolin scroll.
Hiruzen allowed us to become Leaf citizens rather than taking the safer option of killing us and looting our bodies.
Mist, under Ren, recognized the changing geopolitical landscape and started to work with Leaf rather than starting a blood feud over Yagura.
Are examples like that satisfactory or do you have something else in mind?
There have been 4 Great Ninja Wars since the villages have been founded. I don't consider that peace compared to what we hope to achieve with Uplift.
- Location
- a
Of course, it clearly wasn't a hagaromo attack but merely an independent action made by Ruka. Clearly this must be our fault for not giving our advantage away in order to spread our uplift ideals to more people to convince them.
Now now, where have we heard that term before? Ah yes, "plausible deniability", in a world of ninja, that must have been a rare thing in this setting huh. Oh right
Your solution to someone causing the death of our family is to spread our ideals further so that bystander will stand with us instead of dealing with the one causing the death? This is not only pretty much disingenuous in character with hazou, as the update have shown. It's also insulting to consider that the proper response to the attack that result in their death on someone we care about is to outreach more and hope bystanders stand with us.
And yes, maybe Asuma laments not being able to save us. Whatever he laments is irrelevant; he would not have saved us and kei would have been in the basement of orochimaru. It's clear where his priorities lie and until he show otherwise, he will probably leave us to die for the safety of leaf.
"Willing to work with us" is not an indication that Asuma deserve this gargantuan leap of faith that is giving foom to him. Unless you can show me a good reason to give foom away and our massive advantage away without Asuma prioritizing leaf supremacy over uplift, thej giving him foom is just a massive no no.
Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
I consider this entire conversation enough evidence that we will never agree on this topic or any like it without massive personality shifts. Thank you for the effort, and may life be enriching and pleasent.
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
But it is peace compared to Hashirama's times of literal ever present warring clans.
- Location
- Earth
Could I convince you to not do this? Hazō got a long speech from Asuma that he wants to prevent a clan war. He laid out reasons why he needs the peace and that he will mete out fair justice. Hazō also got a direct order saying not to screw with the Hagoromo.
In fact @coldcutconvict, @FaintlySorcerous, @acidshill, @charlesrwest, Asuma has a direct order that we recant threats to the Hagoromo. Could our planmakers consider adding that to the plans?
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
With a promise to vote, yes. And agreement from those who already have voted of course.
Otherwise, I feel like Hazou did, that Asuma will go light on them.
- Location
- how about no
Ah yes, all steps of a years long plot must be interchangeable because if steps A leads to B, B leads to C, C leads to D, and this process continues all the way to step M, then we should be able to immediately skip to the rewards of step M by only doing step A.
Never expect good outcomes from using step D to go from step M to the results of A.
Now now, where have we heard that term before? Ah yes, "plausible deniability", in a world of ninja, that must have been a rare thing in this setting huh. Oh right
"'Due process'? Your henchwoman should have been dueing her processing more carefully, Ritsuko!" Hazou the Hero said as he Righteously Punched Hagaromo's bigoted face through the back of his pretentious skull.
Asuma and everyone clapped.
Man, all of that character development we were hoping for Hazou to build has to be scrapped now that another member of our core group died, huh?
Please, feel free to make and vote for a plan that involves directly confronting and killing Ritsuko if you really believe that is what Hazou should do.
'Why does Asuma, the Hokage of the entire Hidden Leaf Village, not prioritize my life and my sister's life over the lives of everyone else in his village? We're worth (as we are right now) a civil war, Jashin-dammit!'
Leaf supremacy and/or the Will of Fire needs to eventually be synonymous with Uplift if we are to avoid unnecessary ideological fighting between Uplift and Leaf's native culture. With official Tower backing of our policies we can dramatically expand our civilian quality of life improving measures. Why should we go to all of the trouble of reinventing a new ideology from scratch when there is an existing one already in Leaf that mostly coincides with our beliefs anyway? It is simply more efficient to co-opt the Will of Fire because it also has the added benefit of having us (or one of our close allies) replace the Hagaromo as the lorekeepers of what is and isn't for or against the Will of Fire and therefore Uplift.
The ability to enact policies in Fire Country with impunity once the Hagaromo have been politically neutered and our chosen figurehead has replaced them is worth Asuma getting FOOM. We share some of our firepower for the 2nd highest diplomatic power in Leaf while being extremely closely allied with the only remaining higher power.
- Location
- how about no
The present is more peaceful but I would not call the current geopolitical environment stable. AMITY feels more like an armistice especially if it cannot prevent more incidents like Akane's death.
Put another way, I would consider my home only having one room catching on fire an improvement over all of the rooms being on fire sporadically but I would not be satisfied until all of the fires were put out permanently.
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Yes but everlasting progress was made. In the same way we see peace as something else, to Hashirama, what we have no is considered peace. If your entire house in on fire constantly and you reduce it down to one room (as your analogy said), you're likely to think it's a job well done, especially if it stays like that for the foreseeable future. Of course an outsider sees you as a madman because holy crap your room is on fire!
In other words, Hashirama undoubtedly succeeded. If we can succeed even half as much, Uplift will live on forever.
Not directed towards me, I know, but uh...this will not be the result of sharing FOOM with Asuma. We're expected to hand him power. He won't give us anything beyond the payment we ask for, if we share something with him.
- Location
- how about no
Hashirama certainly made good progress I agree.
I want our boy Hazou to go beyond even what the first Hokage managed though.
"Hey Asuma, I think I've outdone myself again with a new Leaf innovation... this time without destroying anything! If it works as advertised can I get a proportionally sized favor?"
"How big of an innovation are we talking here?"
"Enough so that you personally would never have to worry about whether or not you could beat up Oro ever again?"
"...what color would you like your chakra pony to be this time?"
"I was hoping for... oh, I don't know... 'Hagaromo are no longer politically relevant' and 'collaborating with me so Uplift is synonymous with the Will of Fire' would be a good combination of colors."
"If it proves to work as well as you say it can you'll get one pony of each color."
- Location
- Temporally? Now.
I like this. You should join the QM's and have this be canon.
On this whole giving away FOOM thing...I really think that we should only be giving away FOOM to uplift aligned people. Asuma isn't currently.
The solution, as you said, is to show people, both theoretically and using practical examples, that uplift and leaf supremacy are strongly aligned. Then we can consider empowering them and using the fact that uplift aligned people are stronger then non-aligned people to implement mass change.
So it's not "never share it", but it is "don't share it now".
- Location
- how about no
I can accept postponing giving Asuma FOOM for the purposes of winning him over to Uplift first through demonstrations of our Uplift policies.
It's progress.
- Location
- Italy
[X] Action Plan: The Privilege of the Fools
Wordcount:298
Wordcount:298
- Mari/Kei Sanity Check
- Uplift(+Yuno if Kei/Mari approve), if needed divide the meeting accordingly to OPSEC
- Akane is dead. We're going to save Akane.
- Mari
- The timeline is a lot shorter. She needs to be capable of fighting S-rankers.
- You understand what you're asking, can she do it? If not, is she willing to let you help with training?
- You can find something, she knows what you can do.
- We're also getting her a scroll ASAP.
- If possible, get Noburi and/or Yuno SCs, for Noburi, ask first if it's safe to Kabuto.
- The timeline is a lot shorter. She needs to be capable of fighting S-rankers.
- Hazou
- You will work on 3D sealing.
- It could be the edge we need.
- You will work on 3D sealing.
- Kagome
- Work on the rift Seal. Be safe, but that's your priority.
- Kei
- You understand the risks. But leaving Akane alone is not acceptable.
- Akatsuki.
- If we can't move the rift, cooperation with the Akatsuki is probably the only choice. We won't have the firepower to stop them.
- If we can move it things change.
- Mari
- Akane is dead. We're going to save Akane.
- Asuma
- Accept his offer of emotional support
- You understand: Leaf is your home too and Akane would have never wanted her death to hurt it.
- This said, This was a line that should have not been crossed, willfully or not.
- You respect him, so you'll be honest: He told you to trust Hagoromo to not do this, he was wrong. The plays, the bank-run, this.
- You understand and refuse to hurt Leaf. But these situations must never happen again.
- You will trust him completely, but Leaf is Goketsu's home,you expect to be safe, if Asuma's asking to not defend ourselves, this is the minimum you expect from him.
- Use the Hot Spring Blood/Hidan Clan to track Akane's corpse?
- Follow Asuma's instructions.
- Support Ino
- Obtain foreigners objects from the CE; cross-reference the scents
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Crap, we should've had Neji look through the stomachs of local chakra beasts, might've found her partially-digested skull.
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
He's going to say something about not moving against a Leaf clan and tell us to ask for something else. I can almost guarantee it. He certainly won't give us such a broad gift.
Also that gift kinda sucks tbh. Hagoromo no longer politically relevant is on the bottom of things that we need the Hokage to achieve.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Re: what we'd do after FOOM.
Much of the complications in building a better world, in MfD as well as in reality, is not in becoming strong enough to push your will upon other people. It's in becoming strong enough to be able to do your thing in peace, without being snuffed out by Powers That Be which dislike shifts to the status quo, or which would view any success on your part as an invitation to disassemble you for raw materials. Crab buckets.
We're already strong enough to revolutionize the standards of living across the EN, and make a solid push towards building an utopia. The problem is that if we do so, other major players will descend on our walled garden and pick it to pieces. FOOM would let us make our garden's walls implacable.
Not that the garden has to be literal; we don't have to secede. We'll just need to move faster than the established power structures can react to us, while being too strong to reflexively crush all at once. Once we can present a better and stable equilibrium than the status quo, the extant power structures will dissolve on their own — no-one will listen to a Kage if they're forbidding them from joining an utopia in a desperate and pathetic attempt to hold onto their dwindling power. (Well, I suppose they can ban information about that and engage in propaganda, but we'd have two+ S-rank social specs to play that game.)
Much of the complications in building a better world, in MfD as well as in reality, is not in becoming strong enough to push your will upon other people. It's in becoming strong enough to be able to do your thing in peace, without being snuffed out by Powers That Be which dislike shifts to the status quo, or which would view any success on your part as an invitation to disassemble you for raw materials. Crab buckets.
We're already strong enough to revolutionize the standards of living across the EN, and make a solid push towards building an utopia. The problem is that if we do so, other major players will descend on our walled garden and pick it to pieces. FOOM would let us make our garden's walls implacable.
Not that the garden has to be literal; we don't have to secede. We'll just need to move faster than the established power structures can react to us, while being too strong to reflexively crush all at once. Once we can present a better and stable equilibrium than the status quo, the extant power structures will dissolve on their own — no-one will listen to a Kage if they're forbidding them from joining an utopia in a desperate and pathetic attempt to hold onto their dwindling power. (Well, I suppose they can ban information about that and engage in propaganda, but we'd have two+ S-rank social specs to play that game.)
I agree with that, but it'd be much easier to do if you stand on top of the system, instead of trying to implement it from within the system, at the pace the system is comfortable with.
- Location
- a
I never see anywhere where Hazou character development is synonymous with being loyal to Leaf when it stands against uplift. In fact, many of the things we did have always tread the line between treason and not-treason. In fact, that has always been our thing. Also, there is no character development either of us not being protective of the team uplift above everyone else. I mean, we spend a lot of our early years being missing nin and only relying on each other. Havent you seen our reaction when hagaromo first try to find conflict with us?
I would be happy if you can point me to these developments.
Yes you just demonstrated my point. Our main purpose and Hazou's entire thing have always been uplift. Hell, we are even called team uplift. Leaf interest is not, and will never the main point of our interest. Uplift is the thing most important to us, not leaf.
At best, what you are suggesting is a fusion on both leaf supremacy and uplift, which would require the conjoining of both ideals. It does not however, start with giving our most powerful advantage over Leaf. I suppose i would consider it a decent idea if an such an arragnement ever takes place. But again, it certainly doesnt involve giving Asuma the key to our power when we still have none. Also, "if we are to avoid unnecessary ideological fighting between Uplift and Leaf's native culture" doesnt explain anything; Are we gonna abandon our uplift ideas when it contradicts leaf's? Or is it the other way around? You like to say that the ones who are in favor of hoarding foom has no concrete plan, yet there is no clear, concise plan to do your plan without relying on the "leap of faith" and "goodness" of Asuma completely. This is a simulationist world, not disneyland
Also, I like to raise this point about Asuma giving us a reward and completely going through our plan assumption that this whole foom plan relies on. Especially since it likely leave us disadvantaged as we have no advantage anymore.
- Location
- how about no
[X] Action Plan: Following Procedure
Word Count: 265
Word Count: 265
- Personally thank everyone involved in searching for Akane for their help
- Don't have Hazou close himself off from other people offering their condolences, but still keep completing all of his duties in mind
- Apologize to Lee for Hazou's earlier outburst
- Report back to Ruri via 7th Path with all of our latest findings
- Return to Leaf
- Sanity Check the following steps with Ino, Kei, and Mari before executing those steps
- Inform Akane's parents in person about what happened and offer condolences while maintaining OPSEC
- Call the entire clan for an announcement:
- (Let EJ insert his badass speech here)
- What are our new orders, Naruto?
- Politely mention that Orochimaru will pressure us to work in his basement for weeks if we do not have official Hokage orders to be doing something else, like say, going to Iron or Rice to investigate or attending the Conclave
- off screen make normal preparations as Hazou!Pilot deems necessary based on these orders
- Politely mention that Orochimaru will pressure us to work in his basement for weeks if we do not have official Hokage orders to be doing something else, like say, going to Iron or Rice to investigate or attending the Conclave
- In our estate in a public setting, use Earth Shaping to make a jade statue of Akane with our team's input
- We don't want her to be dead dead so this is an effort to boost how much people remember her
- Send runners to contact the dead genin's family to send condolences and whatever else our team thinks would be appropriate
- Once all of Hazou's duties have been fulfilled, ask Ino to meet in a secluded, private spot
- Hazou can take off his Clan Head persona and be just a person together with her
- Don't hold back emotions and let the grief flow over and through him
- Hazou can take off his Clan Head persona and be just a person together with her
Last edited:
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
[X] Action Plan: Life Carries On
- Location
- how about no
FOOM, while it would keep our team safe, is not enough on its own to safeguard Uplift as a self perpetuating ideology. No matter how personally strong Yagura ever was he still had dissent in Mist working against him because those dissidents did not believe in nor aspire to his insane idea of utopia.
The best way to prove our argument that Uplift and the Will of Fire are synonymous is the action of giving FOOM to Asuma. It demonstrates far more than any other act that we are fully committed to Leaf's best interests because we believe that Leaf will in turn help us achieve our social goals.
There will always be another reason to delay selling FOOM as we can never be sure that we are strong enough now to counter absolutely everything the world could throw at us. Even Pain, who had multiple S rankers on his side, was defeated by a coalition force hastily equipped with some seals invented by some then-unknown, no-name former missing nin.
I believe it would be faster in the long run to stand alongside Asuma, Naruto, Tsunade, and more Leaf S rankers by convincing them to support Uplift rather than to go it alone (or at least try to lead by) ourselves.
