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GODSTAR - a Science Fantasy Civilization Quest

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I'm against anything but full integration, but I am less against full autonomy than I am the middle of the road option. If anything, I'd be more supportive of the Democratic Soldier's State if it integrated them even less into our polity. Having them as a permanent ally and substate doesn't compromise our own principles in the name of preserving a less representative political system.

The story of the Great League has been one of allowing distinctive cultures to live and co-exist alongside our own while bringing them into a fully representative and singular (if decentralized) political system. It has been about breaking down class boundaries and uniting people without exceptions or reservations. I don't want to move away from that, especially for a military system; we've seen what a danger a semi-autonomous military can pose to our society.

So, I'll vote for Demilitarized Zone, but if it comes down to Subnational Commandery or Democratic Soldier's State, I'm picking DSS.

Also, the vote doesn't open for like 22 hours.
 
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[X] Subnational Commandery

Keeping their military would probably be good the next time we get an enemy but democratizing most of their institutions is a good idea IMO.
 
Oooops. We all forgot about the moratorium. :p

Ok, let's think this through, I appretiate the MALM's cultural uniqueness, and i want to preserve that. But I also question how their society works. In theory everyone is part of the army, but, in reality there's going to be whole classes of people who are in what we would classify as civilian roles. Would it be fair to say that the MALM has an army-within-an-army that's made of the actual combatants and their logistical support?
 
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We are the kinder, gentle, hegemonizing swarm. We will add your cultural, technological, and especially magical distinctiveness to our own. Consent is mandatory.
 
The issue with the Wehrstaat as I see it is that you cannot have a purely military society. The number of people necessary to support a military will naturally lead to the emergence of a civilian class. If you do a military oligarchy/dictatorship that leads to a small elite ruling over the majority. If you do democratic control then you have the civilian concerns dominating and compromising the military capability (since the civilian and military spheres operate under different constraints and material incentives).

So to reconcile these competing interests you basically have to split them and let each part operate in its own way.
 
Personally, I just think that the Machine Army becoming its own military branch isn't very dangerous and would probably be somewhat beneficial but that parallel / independent subsocieties are a bad idea, they could easily drift in values and are kinda less democratic than a democratic unitary state IMO.
 
If the Subnational Commandery option is chosen and the MALM government will become composed of civilian assemblies then it'll flip from MALM being dominated by its military to a situation where the military merely has an outsized influence from our modern pov.

Gives the new civilian government more time to grow, rewards the commander in chief for playing ball and we can assure the other machine army we aren't going to obliterate their society.

Well we kind of are sorta going there but its in a scale of many many generations and by then we'll see each other as sorta in the same culture group so not really.
 
I might abstain. I don't really know enough about MALM culture to really say if their society has come up with a way to harmonize it's internal civilian and military functions or if it's got a bunch of internal contradictions that make it shitty.
 
I would like to note that while the current Commander-in-Chief is very amenable to League integration and adopting our way of life, if we don't take this opportunity to fully integrate the Machine Army, we open the door to a future reactionary CiC with their own semi-autonomous or fully autonomous military force, which is a recipe for chaos. The Subnational Commandery creates an unaccountable and unresponsive element within our society, which is counter to our democratic and representative principles.

As regards the Democratic Soldier's State, upon further reflection, I'm actually just as opposed to that as I am to the Subnational Commandery. No aspect of our civil society should be organized along military lines, period. The democratization of the military as an ideal is proof that even the military shouldn't be entirely organized along military lines, and not even a democratized structure makes it okay to require that every cook and janitor adhere to military discipline. The entire purpose of the military structure is to inculcate absolute obedience and stifle dissent, neither of which are things that work with our values and goals. If we incorporate those practices into our society, we endorse them and are complicit in the consequences they create.

To me, the only two viable options are full integration or no integration. Since we've opted for some form of integration, we should fully commit to bringing them into our society and reforming their political structures while allowing them to retain their cultural practices.
 
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That's a very good point. ScottishMongol has pointed out votes like this represents the outcomes of countless debates, conferences, and decisions made that sways the public opinion and political system one way or another. This isn't a single high council making a decision against the wishes of the people behind close doors. We've got an opportunity to peacefully integrate them into the Great League without major backlash from their military. We should definitely take it.
 
Democracy is table stakes for this whole affair. I don't think there's any option here which makes the MALM less democratic. The Commander-in-Chief is now an elected position!

ScottishMongol said:
The first elections in the Machine Army of Living Metal are popularly known as the Machine Spring, as the Worker's Party sweeps the majority of seats, drawing on the agricultural collectives and the urban working class. In a shocking turn, Emma 7-Reactor is narrowly retained as Commander-in-Chief, perhaps due to the popularity of her decision to hold elections.
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That's more democratic than our military! So here the options are -
  • Their civilian society becomes democratic like ours, and their military remains distinct but also part of ours - no less democratic than our military, and able to benefit from the same democratic military research we've put off.
  • Their entire military democratizes before ours.
  • They're entirely integrated into the rest of our society, and their military remains just as undemocratic as ours is until we change it.
I do not think "we cannot let this democratic system have any autonomy, because they might make a bad decision" is a reasonable metric here, and I don't think the arguments that this system is unaccountable or unresponsive in a unique way hold up to scrutiny.
 
Etranger said:
I'm against anything but full integration, but I am less against full autonomy than I am the middle of the road option. If anything, I'd be more supportive of the Democratic Soldier's State if it integrated them even less into our polity. Having them as a permanent ally and substate doesn't compromise our own principles in the name of preserving a less representative political system.

The story of the Great League has been one of allowing distinctive cultures to live and co-exist alongside our own while bringing them into a fully representative and singular (if decentralized) political system. It has been about breaking down class boundaries and uniting people without exceptions or reservations. I don't want to move away from that, especially for a military system; we've seen what a danger a semi-autonomous military can pose to our society.

So, I'll vote for Demilitarized Zone, but if it comes down to Subnational Commandery or Democratic Soldier's State, I'm picking DSS.

Also, the vote doesn't open for like 22 hours.
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The DSS would work if they were an ally we were merely weighting on to democratize without a desire to integrate. But it doesn't really work as an integration option. At least the middle option set them on the road of transition to civilian rule and population. The DSS force everyone to stay part of the military if they live in the area. I'm unconvinced the whole population want to be soldiers or rear elements of the army.

A military that answers to a subnational unit is a bit awkward so I still think we ought to integrate fully. But not having a whole territory where everyone is integrated into a military command system is still worth it if it comes down to that.
 
Nyvis said:
The DSS would work if they were an ally we were merely weighting on to democratize without a desire to integrate. But it doesn't really work as an integration option. At least the middle option set them on the road of transition to civilian rule and population. The DSS force everyone to stay part of the military if they live in the area. I'm unconvinced the whole population want to be soldiers or rear elements of the army.

A military that answers to a subnational unit is a bit awkward so I still think we ought to integrate fully. But not having a whole territory where everyone is integrated into a military command system is still worth it if it comes down to that.
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The thing is I would like to avoid pissing of the MAAUH too much. Full integration sets us up for a conflict quite obviously imo.

The DSS is certainly not the best options but it feels pragmatic in a way that avoids a clash between the League and the MAAUH over who gets to unify Paradisea. The Subnational Commandery messes up our internal coherence and basically satisfies no one. Its just a golden parachute for the CIC which feels unnecessary.

At the end of the day the DSS just means the MALM integrates into our economy and we have some oversight over them which isn't the worst deal in the world. It basically strengthens a valuable ally and gives impulses to MAAUH reformers, especially if we decide to support them next turn.

For me its either DSS or full integration. And full integration doesn't have a lot of votes rn either.
 
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I'd go for full integration. I'd understand the other options if they were outright unwilling to go for full integration, we ARE capable of compromise... but one should only compromise if it's actually necessary.

Like, there's a decent chance we WILL have to compromise with the Machine Army of All Under Heaven, for example.

Assuming they don't look at the changes the little MA will go through, and find out it's not actually all that bad.

I think we have enough goodwill with them that we shouldn't worry about too extreme of a reaction to this.


[x] Demilitarized Zone
 
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