- Location
- Yes.
Perhaps the bubbles are being created as the water spirits are disturbed and respond by eating the exhaled material?
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- UK
When they breathe out underwater, it produces bubbles. Additionally, if they cup their hand and put it underwater, it will create a bubble of air and that air will flow out between their fingers.
They know water can be turned to both ice and stream, which are phase transitions. Note that it's not important for them to assume the air is doing a mundane, physical phase transition, and it's totally OK if they think it's a specific byproduct of this jutsu being weird.
It's easy to forget Archimedes was over 2000 years ago, long before the true advent of modern science, long before anything like the printing press, and was doing much more complex deductions than this.
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Or seen water boil
- Location
- Yes.
I reiterate my alternative conclusion from above. Perhaps the bubbles are being created as the water spirits are disturbed and respond by eating the exhaled material?
How do they know that water isn't unique in the ability to become ice/steam? <insert dumb ass metaphor involving spirits>
I recognize that Archimedes was doing advanced deductions over 2000yr old in our world, but in MfD world it's well-established that the earth is flat even though in our world that was disproven since...before Archimedes' time? I'm doing a Wiki on this, don't yell at me if I'm wrong about that. The point is that MfD sucks from a science standpoint and assumptions about their knowledge about the universe... we should not make such assumptions about their intelligence, and break things down piece by piece.
Sorry if this feels antagonistic, it is mostly directed at the nature of the setting and the difficulty of proving modern science to a people who believe in spirits.
i wouldn't mind more time before repeating the nuke even if not necessary for akane health
our new estate better have space for koi
oro is scientific and believes in spirits.
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you can breathe very slowly to avoid disturbance
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- Location
- UK
The point isn't to be certain, just for them to learn enough about it they can suggest ideas that are better on odds. If they fail to make these deductions, it just means their argument to Asuma is weaker, which, sure.
That said, there are lots of things that can turn into other things, like how paper can burn away into ash and smoke. The idea of things transforming in type shouldn't be something only specific to water.
A key difference with flat Earth, I think, is that human society has a long tradition of moving and sailing across the globe, eyes glued to the sky and its constellations, whereas MfD is restricted to a fairly small plot of land you mostly aren't allowed to traverse it freely. There's a real sense in which MfD is a Locally Flat Earth.
It doesn't feel antagonistic to me, FWIW.
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- Location
- Yes.
That is, in all honesty, my concern: that Hazou and co can't make these deductions and so the plan becomes not plausible.
Hm...If you want proof that bubbles are air, set up a situation where you exhale underwater near a Tunneler's Friend or Usamatsu's Glorious Life-Saving Purifier on air-absorption mode and see if the bubbles disappear (NB: I don't recall if these seals work on noncontiguous air like an implosion seal does).
Unfortunately we can't do much about proving the mystery liquid is sufficiently-cooled down air without reusing EM, which is treason at this time.
The people of Mist, according to their history, made their living on the open seas. Hazou grew up in Mist, and he still believes in a flat earth.
Am I misinterpreting something?
I agree with this. Going beside Asuma's back seems like a bad idea. If we want to keep the estate, we should just ask him if we can keep the estate and why exactly he wants us to move. It's possible that if Hazō, Noburi, Akane, and whoever else high-value lives inside the walls of Leaf, he doesn't care if we have another estate outside the walls where the civilians and some of the other ninja live. I'm not sure maintaining two clan compounds is desirable in the long run, but it may be politically achievable.
Would be much easier to maintain administratively one estate. But as it is, it's a huge estate housing over 600+ clanmembers, plus ninja, plus people who just lives on the estate. Translocating that to an entire district in an already crowded city...is well...a gigantic effort. We would probably need to remodel an entire district anyway, plus a bunch of people will be displaced.
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- Location
- UK
Note that it's not important that they be breathable air—they'd probably get pure nitrogen or oxygen, and not try to breathe it. It's just important that it looks and feels enough like air for them to think the jutsu could have transformed one into the other.
My point about sailing was one of scope. I didn't remember Mist made their living at sea, but I would assume (still not remembering the passage) that this means fishing and such, rather than deep cross-continental exploration? The MfD map is tiny and I didn't have the impression many people explored beyond it.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
This is a non-canon Interlude, but yeah. We'd be relocating nearly a thousand people. No matter how efficient, that's going to be a shitshow. And also it's our home/where our experiments are located.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Don't relocate everyone then. Just let Asuma know that it's important to us to have the civilians taken care of. The new complex is a bribe so he will be more than willing to help us out
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Here's what Hazō saw:
1. Jutsu was used
2. The area got very cold
3. Liquid appeared out of nowhere
4. As soon as it touched the ground it disappeared into smoke (for values of 'as soon as')
Let's consider two possible explanations based on things that Hazō would know and chains of logic that he might take between them.
First option:
- Air is a gas
- Gases can become liquids at temperatures far lower than any human has ever seen
- Cryogenic liquids are extremely hard to maintain and will immediately shift back into being a gas upon touching anything sort of warm, like the ground
- Gases will automatically equalize their pressure throughout a volume
- Liquids are more dense than gases
- When the gases turn into liquids, they reduce the pressure in that area and cause surrounding air to push into the area of liquifaction
- Therefore, the most likely explanation for what I saw was that the extreme cold caused cryogenic precipitation of the atmosphere
- Lots of jutsu create matter out of pure chakra, e.g. Water Whip
- Chakra constructs such as these disappear on their own after a short time
- Therefore, the most likely explanation for what I saw is that the EM jutsu created a liquid chakra construct
Which of those is simpler? Which of those does NOT rely on things that he has no possible way of knowing?
Yup, that.
- Location
- UK
I don't expect this is entirely true, and would imagine that, especially close to the source and in the crater, there are sizeable remaining pools of LN2 that will potentially last days. This deduction is around what you might find out when experimenting with that material after the jutsu stops.
Maybe it does just immediately soak into the ground, but I'd imagine that's less applicable once you blast away the porous surface layer and freeze the ground underneath, so if they investigate as soon as they can it should still be around. The earth itself is not very thermally conductive, and the crater will act as a collection mechanism.
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- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Koi ponds.
- Location
- UK
To quickly put some numbers on why I expect a significant amount of LN2 to remain for some time after the jutsu, 17mi³ ~ 10¹¹ kg ~ 10¹¹ liters. If a mere 10 cubic meters (0.00001%, or 0.002 seconds of the jutsu's output) ends up collecting in some surface depression, and if we lose something like a factor of 200:1* to cool the surface enough to hold it, we'll have a pool of 50 liters. There will probably be many of these, and probably some much larger than that.
We need maybe a tenth of a liter, after losses.
*because you need to lower the surface ~200 degrees, and I don't want to do sensible calculations to figure out what the relevant container:liquid mass ratios are or how subcooled the LN2 is, so chose something I think is roughly but not exceptionally conservative
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- Location
- Yes.
Can we not remake them under appropriate OPSEC conditions? I can't imagine Asuma not supporting this, given that he already knows the secret...
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Not sure, but I could see that being a reason.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
I think the Vampiric Dew x chakra koi synergy is kept hush-hush while not being a clan secret proper, as part of FOOM. Having nigh-infinite chakra for training reasons is part of the deal, and if people don't think of us as having access to nigh-infinite chakra in the first place, then they're less likely to catch up on what we're doing. There are three limiters to them getting it: (1) the possibility to bypass the issue of SC chakra cost, (2) the possibility to build up a real resistance to SC feedback, (3) understanding that with 1 and 2, it goes exponentially from there.
1 and 2 only take bad infosec. 3 takes smarts/insight. We really don't want the Nara to be too aware of 1 ("buying chakra is expensive" almost but not perfectly covers it), because of course they're Shadow manipulation experts and of course they're smart.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Notably, the Koi were part of a deal between the Wakahisa and the Goketsu, not between the Wakahisa and the Shimura Estate. Those fish belong to us, they just happen to be residing in the Shimura Estate like all our other people and furniture.
We may need to strike some sort of deal until we have a proper pond prepared on the new estate, keeping the koi on the Shimura Estate but still ours even after the rest of us have moved out, but I don't see a future here where ownership of the koi falls to the Shimura. The Wakahisa did not bargain with the Shimura, after all, they bargained with us.
We may need to strike some sort of deal until we have a proper pond prepared on the new estate, keeping the koi on the Shimura Estate but still ours even after the rest of us have moved out, but I don't see a future here where ownership of the koi falls to the Shimura. The Wakahisa did not bargain with the Shimura, after all, they bargained with us.
- Location
- UK
Actually screw that math. 10¹¹ liters over 500 square miles is 7 cm thick over the entire area. If there's any surface depression anywhere, it will collect, and either way there will be an infinite supply of LN2 and LOX. Yes, some sizeable fraction of this will evaporate, especially anything at the far reaches which will mix with fresh air, but that's mostly irrelevant for our purposes.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
I don't think this should be any issue, would it? We can just move them right?